Russia Discussion

This is an invasion?

An invasion of E.Ukraine would be over before it started. The few hundred regular Russian troops that have almost singlehandedly caused the Ukrainian forces to route is evidence of that. Whatever this is, it's not an invasion.

Don't let me get in the way of your back slapping and hyperbole though gents! Carry on.
 
Nucks said:
This is an invasion?

An invasion of E.Ukraine would be over before it started. The few hundred regular Russian troops that have almost singlehandedly caused the Ukrainian forces to route is evidence of that. Whatever this is, it's not an invasion.

Don't let me get in the way of your back slapping and hyperbole though gents! Carry on.
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Are you suggesting that because Russia didn't go in with everything at it's disposal, it's not an invasion?

But that's not just semantics, that's absurd semantics at that. By that standard Iraq 2003 and Afghanistan 2001 weren't invasions because the nuclear arsenal wasn't deployed.

If I've completed missed your point mate please correct me, but what you said makes no sense at all.
 
Invasion, incursion. Call if whatever you want. Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine, which can't be a good thing given their recent penchance of stealing Ukrainian land.
 
naturalized said:
Are you suggesting that because Russia didn't go in with everything at it's disposal, it's not an invasion?

But that's not just semantics, that's absurd semantics at that. By that standard Iraq 2003 and Afghanistan 2001 weren't invasions because the nuclear arsenal wasn't deployed.

If I've completed missed your point mate please correct me, but what you said makes no sense at all.
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:lol:
 
naturalized said:
I'm going to go ahead and say I won this particular bet, Danny. Thoughts?
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1- The fact that only a few hundred Russians embarrassed Kiev's army like that proves that there was no significant involvement by Russia prior to that (which exposes the lies told by Western propaganda machines in the last few months). It's also bizarre to call that an "invasion". There are probably more US soldiers in Iraq right now defending the US embassy than Russian soldiers inside Ukraine.

2- When the West and Ukraine start bullying Russia then they shouldn't complain when Russia go one step further. The West escalated the problem instead of trying to solve it with those stupid sanctions, and now we could be edging closer to a real war. It's now the West/Ukraine's move. They can work peacefully on a deal (and the truce is a good start), or they can choose to escalate the situation further, but then again they shouldn't complain about the consequences.

3- Don't you think it's time to end the massacres in East Ukraine, and give the people there what they want? I, unlike you, take the same position on this issue wherever the conflict is, whether it's Kurdistan, East Ukraine, or anywhere else. All people (that are not Al-Qaeda) deserve the right of self-determination. The people of Eastern Ukraine who saw their elected president toppled by a coup supported by the West deserve to have a say in their own future at least. The death toll is now at 3000+, and it's time to stop the non-sense.
 
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naturalized said:
Are you suggesting that because Russia didn't go in with everything at it's disposal, it's not an invasion?

But that's not just semantics, that's absurd semantics at that. By that standard Iraq 2003 and Afghanistan 2001 weren't invasions because the nuclear arsenal wasn't deployed.

If I've completed missed your point mate please correct me, but what you said makes no sense at all.
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Yeah, it's very logical that you should drop nuclear bombs on the areas you want to "invade". :wenger:
 
Raoul said:
Invasion, incursion. Call if whatever you want. Russian troops are fighting in Ukraine, which can't be a good thing given their recent penchance of stealing Ukrainian land.
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:lol: Yeah, who cares if the terms we're using are accurate or not, as long as they make good headlines (/propaganda). I mean even the most widely used term by the US government (which was the basis for multiple wars and real invasions) is still yet to have a specific and clear definition. However, that's what makes those terms perfect, because you can modify their meaning whenever you need.
 
Danny1982 said:
1- The fact that only a few hundred Russians embarrassed Kiev's army like that proves that there was no significant involvement by Russia prior to that (which exposes the lies told by Western propaganda machines in the last few months). It's also bizarre to call that an "invasion". There are probably more US soldiers in Iraq right now defending the US embassy than Russian soldiers inside Ukraine.

2- When the West and Ukraine start bullying Russia then they shouldn't complain when Russia go one step further. The West escalated the problem instead of trying to solve it with those stupid sanctions, and now we could be edging closer to a real war. It's now the West/Ukraine's move. They can work peacefully on a deal (and the truce is a good start), or they can choose to escalate the situation further, but then again they shouldn't complain about the consequences.

3- Don't you think it's time to end the massacres in East Ukraine, and give the people there what they want? I, unlike you, take the same position on this issue wherever the conflict is, whether it's Kurdistan, East Ukraine, or anywhere else. All people (that are not Al-Qaeda) deserve the right of self-determination. The people of Eastern Ukraine who saw their elected president toppled by a coup supported by the West deserve to have a say in their own future at least. The death toll is now at 3000+, and it's time to stop the non-sense.
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Tell that to the fella who started it.
 
Danny1982 said:
1- The fact that only a few hundred Russians embarrassed Kiev's army like that proves that there was no significant involvement by Russia prior to that (which exposes the lies told by Western propaganda machines in the last few months). It's also bizarre to call that an "invasion". There are probably more US soldiers in Iraq right now defending the US embassy than Russian soldiers inside Ukraine.

2- When the West and Ukraine start bullying Russia then they shouldn't complain when Russia go one step further. The West escalated the problem instead of trying to solve it with those stupid sanctions, and now we could be edging closer to a real war. It's now the West/Ukraine's move. They can work peacefully on a deal (and the truce is a good start), or they can choose to escalate the situation further, but then again they shouldn't complain about the consequences.

3- Don't you think it's time to end the massacres in East Ukraine, and give the people there what they want? I, unlike you, take the same position on this issue wherever the conflict is, whether it's Kurdistan, East Ukraine, or anywhere else. All people (that are not Al-Qaeda) deserve the right of self-determination. The people of Eastern Ukraine who saw their elected president toppled by a coup supported by the West deserve to have a say in their own future at least. The death toll is now at 3000+, and it's time to stop the non-sense.
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Double, triple, quadruple, and finally quintuple down. I like it.
 
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Was it Karl Popper that said the proof of a theory was its predictive value? Either way, @Danny1982 , think about this:

1) Were you surprised when Russian troops, regular Russian troops, fighting as cohesive units with heavy armour and artillery attached, invaded eastern Ukraine?

2) Were you surprised when, prior to that, Russia annexed Crimea - literally annexed it at the point of a gun like it was 1939?

3) Were you surprised when, prior to that, Russian troops entered Crimea, then sovereign Ukrainian territory?

Of course you were. Be honest with yourself.

Why is your worldview, if it is empirically or logically justified, so incapable of predicting the future? Why does Putin not consistently behave like the Robin Hood character you believe him to be?

Where is this going to stop, dude? If Russian troops do indeed capture Kiev "in two weeks", as he brags he can do, are you still going to bang the drum you've been banging ever since this thread really was about a truce in Ukraine breaking down, between rival political factions, which the Kremlin then escalated into one of most serious geopolitical crises since WWII? At what point is reality going to intrude into this conversation?
 
naturalized said:
Was it Karl Popper that said the proof of a theory was its predictive value? Either way, @Danny1982 , think about this:

1) Were you surprised when Russian troops, regular Russian troops, fighting as cohesive units with heavy armour and artillery attached, invaded eastern Ukraine?

2) Were you surprised when, prior to that, Russia annexed Crimea - literally annexed it at the point of a gun like it was 1939?

3) Were you surprised when, prior to that, Russian troops entered Crimea, then sovereign Ukrainian territory?

Of course you were. Be honest with yourself.

Why is your worldview, if it is empirically or logically justified, so incapable of predicting the future? Why does Putin not consistently behave like the Robin Hood character you believe him to be?

Where is this going to stop, dude? If Russian troops do indeed capture Kiev "in two weeks", as he brags he can do, are you still going to bang the drum you've been banging ever since this thread really was about a truce in Ukraine breaking down, between rival political factions, which the Kremlin then escalated into one of most serious geopolitical crises since WWII? At what point is reality going to intrude into this conversation?
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You know I can play the same game with you and ask you about Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, ... and the surprises those conflicts brought, right?

The problem you fail to understand here is that we're not arguing if Putin is a prophet or not. And I'm not even sure what "reality" you're referring to in your last sentence. It doesn't matter how much you hate Putin, the current situation in Ukraine was the direct result of the US/EU's meddling in Ukraine's politics, to the degree of pushing it towards a coup that toppled a legitimate and elected president. You can not neglect this reality.

And instead of trying to correct their mistake, they're now getting even more involved in the conflict. They even started imposing sanctions on Russia, and somehow (for some odd reason) Russia doesn't seem to be a country that likes sanctions being imposed upon it.

It doesn't matter how you twist this. Russia didn't start it. Ukraine was divided the moment the Western half of Ukraine decided that it will not respect democracy and will not respect the opinion of the Eastern part of Ukraine.

Now the best solution would be to let every part decide its future.. However the US/EU don't like that solution (because they want to control all of Ukraine), which is why they're now trying to help Kiev crush and silence the parts that are not on their side, leading to the mess we have at hand right now, 3000+ already dead before Russia even started to intervene significantly.
 
Danny1982 said:
You know I can play the same game with you and ask you about Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, ... and the surprises those conflicts brought, right?

The problem you fail to understand here is that we're not arguing if Putin is a prophet or not. And I'm not even sure what "reality" you're referring to in your last sentence. It doesn't matter how much you hate Putin, the current situation in Ukraine was the direct result of the US/EU's meddling in Ukraine's politics, to the degree of pushing it towards a coup that toppled a legitimate and elected president. You can not neglect this reality.

And instead of trying to correct their mistake, they're now getting even more involved in the conflict. They even started imposing sanctions on Russia, and somehow (for some odd reason) Russia doesn't seem to be a country that likes sanctions being imposed upon it.

It doesn't matter how you twist this. Russia didn't start it. Ukraine was divided the moment the Western half of Ukraine decided that it will not respect democracy and will not respect the opinion of the Eastern part of Ukraine.

Now the best solution would be to let every part decide its future.. However the US/EU don't like that solution (because they want to control all of Ukraine), which is why they're now trying to help Kiev crush and silence the parts that are not on their side, leading to the mess we have at hand right now, 3000+ already dead before Russia even started to intervene significantly.
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:lol: You're deluded. Putin stopped Ukraine from signing the association agreement with the EU, despite it having popular support from at least a significant plurality if not an outright majority of support. (http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-f...-losing-europe-ukrainian-public-pifer-thoburn) Yanukovych was even saying he was going to sign it before his boss told him he couldn't. Yet it's American/EU meddling, right. Poroshenko won an outright majority of the presidential election with 60% turnout and vocally supported signing the association agreement. Even in the East he won over 30% of the votes, a plurality. You're right, clearly the majority of Ukrainians hate the EU and want to be a part of the Soviet Reunion.

Then there's the fact that Russia literally invaded [definition: to enter (a place, such as a foreign country) in order to take control by military force] a sovereign country for the purpose of annexing part of it, which I know you refuse to accept. You wouldn't even accept that the men in Russian vehicles, in Russian uniforms (minus patches), with Russian weapons, and Moscow accents weren't Russian despite the preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

Also, as I've pointed out numerous times, you and many other Putin apologists love the notion that a democratically elected official can never lose legitimacy. Yanukovych's rampant corruption, imprisoning of Tymoshenko on trumped up charges just like his best buddy Vladimir always does, abuse and suppression of political opposition, and his embezzling of public funds destroy any legitimacy he could ever claim. Once you cross those lines, and Yanukovych certainly did, he is no longer the legitimate head of state or leader of the country. He broke the rules of the democratic governance first, particularly by his imprisoning of political opponents and suppression of opposition. The Ukrainian people, as all people, maintain the right to revolution.

If there was so much support in the East for the pro-Russian operatives, the Ukrainian military wouldn't have been able to push the rebels nearly to the point of breaking, forcing Russia to increase its support to regain some of its losses. Clearly the grassroots support for the rebels is substantially less than what you believe it is. Even with minimal support from the people in the East they should be able to put up better resistance to the hapless Ukrainian army.
 
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http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...n-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/

Hook, line, and sinker.

I imagine Russians would love the National Enquirer and Weekly News Today in the US.

wwn.jpg
 
Americans seem to be the biggest experts on all things Ukrainian here. Who would have thought that you can figure things out so easily right from your living room sofa, thousands of miles away from the actual conflict. So who's next on the list of the lucky countries, where US plans to spread their goodwill and their own brand of democracy?
 
antihenry said:
Americans seem to be the biggest experts on all things Ukrainian here. Who would have thought that you can figure things out so easily right from your living room sofa, thousands of miles away from the actual conflict. So who's next on the list of the lucky countries, where US plans to spread their goodwill and their own brand of democracy?
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I'm thinking it's about time we bombed ourselves, it's been too long.
 
antihenry said:
Americans seem to be the biggest experts on all things Ukrainian here. Who would have thought that you can figure things out so easily right from your living room sofa, thousands of miles away from the actual conflict. So who's next on the list of the lucky countries, where US plans to spread their goodwill and their own brand of democracy?
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A bit rich coming from someone who's country is currently invading and has already stolen, Ukrainian land. Why don't you concede that Russia is a corrupt mafia state, run by an authoritarian strong man who needs to conquer neighboring countries in order to flog the facade that Russia is great, merely to stay in power.
 
Raoul said:
A bit rich coming from someone who's country is currently invading and has already stolen, Ukrainian land. Why don't you concede that Russia is a corrupt mafia state, run by an authoritarian strong man who needs to conquer neighboring countries in order to flog the facade that Russia is great, merely to stay in power.
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This land is about as Ukrainian as you're an expert on Russian-Ukrainian relations. The vast majority of the population is Russian and always considered themselves a part of Russia, which was confirmed by the results of the referendum. No blood was spilled, by the way, and the local support for Russian troops was overwhelming. Looking at what's happening to the southeast of Ukraine, they can certainly feel they made the right choice. I'm not even going to get into a historical debate, since Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with Crimea, and it belonged to Russia for centuries. As for the war that's rages on, US should have thought very hard about supporting an anti-constitutional coup that created this whole mess in the first place, but when have they ever cared about such things.

Criticizing Russia for their policies is all fine and good, but what's really rich, it's coming from someone, whose country was created on the land stolen from Native Americans and built on the backs of millions of African slaves. Your government invaded about 50 countries since the World War II. Iraq invasion alone caused the conflict that killed hundreds of thousands of people. What right do US have to tell anyone what to do, especially in their own backyard? When Soviet Union deployed missiles to Cuba, US reacted so strongly, the whole world was on the brink of nuclear war. But somehow you can invade,bomb, kill and change regimes anywhere around the world because it suits your geopolitical interests and almighty petrodollar?

EU are nothing but a bunch of American lackeys, they depend on US too much so they have no voice politically, economically or militarily and have to fall in line with whatever America decides to do at any given moment. I seriously doubt most European countries want the conflict with Russia and certainly no one is looking forward to support the bankrupt, godawful mess that's the country of Ukraine at the moment, but EU's masters from across the ocean don't like inobedient slaves, so the silliness with sanctions continues.

Putin is an authoritarian strong man and I'm not a big fan of his policies, neither foreign, nor domestic. But I do respect him as the only one who doesn't bow down to the world's biggest bully. And I don't think I'm the only one who sees it that way, despite what Western media tries to spoon feed its gullible public.
 
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antihenry said:
This land is about as Ukrainian as you're an expert on Russian-Ukrainian relations. The vast majority of the population is Russian and always considered themselves a part of Russia, which was confirmed by the results of the referendum. No blood was spilled, by the way, and the local support for Russian troops was overwhelming. Looking at what's happening to the southeast of Ukraine, they can certainly feel they made the right choice. I'm not even going to get into a historical debate, since Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with Crimea, and it belonged to Russia for centuries. As for the war that's rages on, US should have thought very hard about supporting an anti-constitutional coup that created this whole mess in the first place, but when have they ever cared about such things.

Criticizing Russia for their policies is all fine and good, but what's really rich, it's coming from someone, whose country was created on the land stolen from Native Americans and built on the backs of millions of African slaves. Your government invaded about 50 countries since the World War II. Iraq invasion alone caused the conflict that killed hundreds of thousands of people. What right do US have to tell anyone what to do, especially in their own backyard? When Soviet Union deployed missiles to Cuba, US reacted so strongly, the whole world was on the brink of nuclear war. But somehow you can invade,bomb, kill and change regimes anywhere around the world because it suits your geopolitical interests and almighty petrodollar?

EU are nothing but a bunch of American lackeys, they depend on US too much so they have no voice politically, economically or militarily and have to fall in line with whatever America decides to do at any given moment. I seriously doubt most European countries want the conflict with Russia and certainly no one is looking forward to support the bankrupt, godawful mess that's the country of Ukraine at the moment, but EU's masters from across the ocean don't like inobedient slaves, so the silliness with sanctions continues.

Putin is an authoritarian strong man and I'm not a big fan of his policies, neither foreign, nor domestic. But I do respect him as the only one who doesn't bow down to the world's biggest bully. And I don't think I'm the only one who sees it that way, despite what Western media tries to spoon feed its gullible public.
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Out of curiosity, what's the general mood in Russia towards the E. Ukrainian situation at the moment? I read somewhere that there were the beginnings of discontent owing to the first casualties returning to Russia (76th Airborne), any truth to this?
 
naturalized said:
Out of curiosity, what's the general mood in Russia towards the E. Ukrainian situation at the moment? I read somewhere that there were the beginnings of discontent owing to the first casualties returning to Russia (76th Airborne), any truth to this?
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There may be some discontent from the relatives of the soldiers that died in the conflict, but by and large Russians are behind Putin.
 
antihenry said:
This land is about as Ukrainian as you're an expert on Russian-Ukrainian relations. The vast majority of the population is Russian and always considered themselves a part of Russia, which was confirmed by the results of the referendum. No blood was spilled, by the way, and the local support for Russian troops was overwhelming. Looking at what's happening to the southeast of Ukraine, they can certainly feel they made the right choice. I'm not even going to get into a historical debate, since Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with Crimea, and it belonged to Russia for centuries. As for the war that's rages on, US should have thought very hard about supporting an anti-constitutional coup that created this whole mess in the first place, but when have they ever cared about such things.

Criticizing Russia for their policies is all fine and good, but what's really rich, it's coming from someone, whose country was created on the land stolen from Native Americans and built on the backs of millions of African slaves. Your government invaded about 50 countries since the World War II. Iraq invasion alone caused the conflict that killed hundreds of thousands of people. What right do US have to tell anyone what to do, especially in their own backyard? When Soviet Union deployed missiles to Cuba, US reacted so strongly, the whole world was on the brink of nuclear war. But somehow you can invade,bomb, kill and change regimes anywhere around the world because it suits your geopolitical interests and almighty petrodollar?

EU are nothing but a bunch of American lackeys, they depend on US too much so they have no voice politically, economically or militarily and have to fall in line with whatever America decides to do at any given moment. I seriously doubt most European countries want the conflict with Russia and certainly no one is looking forward to support the bankrupt, godawful mess that's the country of Ukraine at the moment, but EU's masters from across the ocean don't like inobedient slaves, so the silliness with sanctions continues.

Putin is an authoritarian strong man and I'm not a big fan of his policies, neither foreign, nor domestic. But I do respect him as the only one who doesn't bow down to the world's biggest bully. And I don't think I'm the only one who sees it that way, despite what Western media tries to spoon feed its gullible public.
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:lol: You want to talk about gullible public? From my early post of an article from Reuters:

The same poll showed the majority of Russians receive their information on the conflict from television -- which is almost entirely state-controlled and makes no mention of Russian troops fighting in Ukraine -- and that 73 percent believe the information they get from the media is reliable.
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Let's compare that to the US:

ugzoius.png
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antihenry said:
This land is about as Ukrainian as you're an expert on Russian-Ukrainian relations. The vast majority of the population is Russian and always considered themselves a part of Russia, which was confirmed by the results of the referendum. No blood was spilled, by the way, and the local support for Russian troops was overwhelming. Looking at what's happening to the southeast of Ukraine, they can certainly feel they made the right choice. I'm not even going to get into a historical debate, since Ukraine has absolutely nothing to do with Crimea, and it belonged to Russia for centuries. As for the war that's rages on, US should have thought very hard about supporting an anti-constitutional coup that created this whole mess in the first place, but when have they ever cared about such things.

Criticizing Russia for their policies is all fine and good, but what's really rich, it's coming from someone, whose country was created on the land stolen from Native Americans and built on the backs of millions of African slaves. Your government invaded about 50 countries since the World War II. Iraq invasion alone caused the conflict that killed hundreds of thousands of people. What right do US have to tell anyone what to do, especially in their own backyard? When Soviet Union deployed missiles to Cuba, US reacted so strongly, the whole world was on the brink of nuclear war. But somehow you can invade,bomb, kill and change regimes anywhere around the world because it suits your geopolitical interests and almighty petrodollar?

EU are nothing but a bunch of American lackeys, they depend on US too much so they have no voice politically, economically or militarily and have to fall in line with whatever America decides to do at any given moment. I seriously doubt most European countries want the conflict with Russia and certainly no one is looking forward to support the bankrupt, godawful mess that's the country of Ukraine at the moment, but EU's masters from across the ocean don't like inobedient slaves, so the silliness with sanctions continues.

Putin is an authoritarian strong man and I'm not a big fan of his policies, neither foreign, nor domestic. But I do respect him as the only one who doesn't bow down to the world's biggest bully. And I don't think I'm the only one who sees it that way, despite what Western media tries to spoon feed its gullible public.
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Crimea belongs to Ukraine as per international recognition. There are loads of Russian speaking areas in other parts of Ukraine and elsewhere but they haven't been literally stolen while the world was watching.
 
antihenry said:
There may be some discontent from the relatives of the soldiers that died in the conflict, but by and large Russians are behind Putin.
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Which isn't saying much given that he has an iron grip on media information inside Russia - one that flogs the fantasy that fascists are taking over in Ukraine, that Ukrainians shot down the Malaysian airliner, and an endless list of other laughable propaganda that makes Fox News seem like the BBC. He is lying to his public about Russian involvement in Ukraine and simultaneously lying to world leaders about his intentions to invade. The Russian public can look no further than their small time dictator once the economy goes tits up.
 
Raoul said:
Which isn't saying much given that he has an iron grip on media information inside Russia - one that flogs the fantasy that fascists are taking over in Ukraine, that Ukrainians shot down the Malaysian airliner, and an endless list of other laughable propaganda that makes Fox News seem like the BBC. He is lying to his public about Russian involvement in Ukraine and simultaneously lying to world leaders about his intentions to invade. The Russian public can look no further than their small time dictator once the economy goes tits up.
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There are various reasons for the strong support he has in Russia. On one hand, he got rid of any serious opposition/competition early in his reign by taking down oligarchs, who were the real rulers of Russia under Yeltsin. But he also brought Russia back from its knees, both economically and politically, and what's very important, Putin restored Russian national pride as the country that should be respected and reckoned with, regardless of what one may think of its people and politics. This is one thing that the West, especially US could never understand about Russians and Russia, it's that mentality, that is pretty archaic and backwards, but integral part of it is a sense of pride and the attitude that the more you push us, the more we push back.

As for lies, perpetuated by those in power and the media, Ukrainian mass media are just as bad, if not worse. Americans lie all the time, inventing reasons for getting involved in other countries' affairs. Sometimes it's the 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, other times it's to sponsor the 'freedom fighters' in Syria, or to 'support the democratic process' in Ukraine.
 
antihenry said:
There are various reasons for the strong support he has in Russia. On one hand, he got rid of any serious opposition/competition early in his reign by taking down oligarchs, who were the real rulers of Russia under Yeltsin. But he also brought Russia back from its knees, both economically and politically, and what's very important, Putin restored Russian national pride as the country that should be respected and reckoned with, regardless of what one may think of its people and politics. This is one thing that the West, especially US could never understand about Russians and Russia, it's that mentality, that is pretty archaic and backwards, but integral part of it is a sense of pride and the attitude that the more you push us, the more we push back.

As for lies, perpetuated by those in power and the media, Ukrainian mass media are just as bad, if not worse. Americans lie all the time, inventing reasons for getting involved in other countries' affairs. Sometimes it's the 'weapons of mass destruction' in Iraq, other times it's to sponsor the 'freedom fighters' in Syria, or to 'support the democratic process' in Ukraine.
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Can you point out the media outlets in Ukraine that have been forcibly taken over by the current Ukrainian government in the way that Putin has done? The Russian state and its thugs intimidate, coerce, assault, and kill journalists who oppose Putin's regime or the rampant corruption he turns a blind eye to. When they are attacked, the cases just remain unsolved and uninvestigated. The flaws in the Russian media and its control by the state, via ownership, coercion, censorship, and other means are there for everyone to see. It's not comparable to any Western media or the Ukrainian media.

Yanukovych followed his boss's template in extending his influence to the media while he was in office. It's why Ukraine's press freedom index dropped substantially in 2010 and throughout his reign. From 2004 to 2010, media freedom in Ukraine was far better than it has been under Yanukovych, even if it wasn't great. Even at its worst, it didn't reach the lows of Russia's media. The trite assertion that "oh, they're just as bad!" is meaningless since it isn't grounded in reality. The Ukrainian media is by no means ideal but to lazily equate it with the Russian media is quite amusing.
 
Sir Matt said:
Can you point out the media outlets in Ukraine that have been forcibly taken over by the current Ukrainian government in the way that Putin has done? The Russian state and its thugs intimidate, coerce, assault, and kill journalists who oppose Putin's regime or the rampant corruption he turns a blind eye to. When they are attacked, the cases just remain unsolved and uninvestigated. The flaws in the Russian media and its control by the state, via ownership, coercion, censorship, and other means are there for everyone to see. It's not comparable to any Western media or the Ukrainian media.

Yanukovych followed his boss's template in extending his influence to the media while he was in office. It's why Ukraine's press freedom index dropped substantially in 2010 and throughout his reign. From 2004 to 2010, media freedom in Ukraine was far better than it has been under Yanukovych, even if it wasn't great. Even at its worst, it didn't reach the lows of Russia's media. The trite assertion that "oh, they're just as bad!" is meaningless since it isn't grounded in reality. The Ukrainian media is by no means ideal but to lazily equate it with the Russian media is quite amusing.
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It may not be comparable to the Western media, but you don't know squat about what's happening to media in Ukraine. Apart from several journalists being killed in the last few months, there were a few captured, beaten and intimidated. There's very little, if any, objectivity in the way the news are presented, it's a non stop propaganda. The Russian TV channels are officially prohibited in Ukraine, while they spawn lies of their own making daily. To be fair, Russian major media sources are hardly better in that respect, both sides are just as bad as each other.

For the real deal, you have to look for outside sources, that aren't connected to Ukraine, where local Western backed oligarchs run the show, or Russia, where Putin controls the biggest media companies. There's, for example, a Ukrainian journalist, named Anatoly Shariy, who conducted various investigations into cases of illegal gambling business, drug trade and widespread corruption in Ukrainian law enforcement. There was an unsuccessful assassination attempt on him in 2011, as a result he had to flee the country and later received an official refugee status within the EU, the first Ukrainian journalist in many years to do so. Shariy doesn't belong to any political party and is critical of both sides in the conflict. In his Youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVPYbobPRzz0SjinWekjUBw he exposes fake news daily from both Ukrainian and Russian media sources and demonstrates how easily people can be manipulated. Check it out, that is, if you can speak Russian or if someone can translate it for you.

That's what's bothering me about Americans, it's that idea, that they always know who the "good" and the "bad" guys are anywhere across the globe and know what has to be done better than the people, who lived there their whole lives. Nothing is taken into consideration: not the mentality, not the culture, not the history, not the thousands of little things that you can only know if you're from those parts. The consequences of such actions are dire, we could witness it for many years in so many places, but somehow, the trend continues.
 
You don't feel any sense of shame that your gov't guaranteed the Ukrainians their border in return for the nukes and then you invaded their country?
 
In Southern Ukraine at the moment. The people I've talked to seem to vacillate from being oblivious and just getting on with life to having a growing hatred for Russians.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
You don't feel any sense of shame that your gov't guaranteed the Ukrainians their border in return for the nukes and then you invaded their country?
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If citizens should feel shame for their government's actions, Americans must spend their days on their knees, begging the rest of the world for forgiveness.
 
antihenry said:
If citizens should feel shame for their government's actions, Americans must spend their days on their knees, begging the rest of the world for forgiveness.
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You aren't entitled to mention anything they do following your stance in this thread. All your previous criticism is hypocrisy now. Russia has taken by force territory it had stated was sovereign to the Ukraine. You can't parse that or deflect it or pretend it isn't a serious issue. Russia is wrong to be doing what it is doing and you are supporting it.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
You aren't entitled to mention anything they do following your stance in this thread. All your previous criticism is hypocrisy now. Russia has taken by force territory it had stated was sovereign to the Ukraine. You can't parse that or deflect it or pretend it isn't a serious issue. Russia is wrong to be doing what it is doing and you are supporting it.
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I forgot to ask you what I'm entitled to. I never said I support Russia, Ukraine or anybody else for that matter. As far as I'm concerned, there are no good or bad countries, and every country acts out of their own interest, no matter what the politicians say in public.

What Russia does in Ukraine may or may not be wrong, but your country has done far worse all over the world for decades. Americans are the biggest hypocrites out there, not all of them, obviously, just those mindless sheep that believe that they're the 'good guys' and the world needs their policing.
 
antihenry said:
What Russia does in Ukraine may or may not be wrong, but your country has done far worse all over the world for decades. Americans are the biggest hypocrites out there, not all of them, obviously, just those mindless sheep that believe that they're the 'good guys' and the world needs their policing.
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Tu quoque fallacy. And by the way, have you ever considered that maybe it does? And that Russian actions in the Ukraine have proven that very fact, thus leading to a greater westward tilt by the Baltic nations, Poland, etc, in the aftermath of your invasion?

Are the leaders of those countries hoodwinked by devious Ukrainian-American propaganda, or are they right to fear a world in which might makes right and your country can indulge it's revanchist fantasies at the whim of an upjumped kgb thug?

And if so, could it be that maybe the world really does need underwriting by American force of arms?
 
naturalized said:
Tu quoque fallacy. And by the way, have you ever considered that maybe it does? And that Russian actions in the Ukraine have proven that very fact, thus leading to a greater westward tilt by the Baltic nations, Poland, etc, in the aftermath of your invasion?

Are the leaders of those countries hoodwinked by devious Ukrainian-American propaganda, or are they right to fear a world in which might makes right and your country can indulge it's revanchist fantasies at the whim of an upjumped kgb thug?

And if so, could it be that maybe the world really does need underwriting by American force of arms?
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Good point.
 
antihenry said:
I forgot to ask you what I'm entitled to. I never said I support Russia, Ukraine or anybody else for that matter. As far as I'm concerned, there are no good or bad countries, and every country acts out of their own interest, no matter what the politicians say in public.

What Russia does in Ukraine may or may not be wrong, but your country has done far worse all over the world for decades. Americans are the biggest hypocrites out there, not all of them, obviously, just those mindless sheep that believe that they're the 'good guys' and the world needs their policing.
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Its OK that is what I am here for and yes you did.

If you give a pass to Russia taking Ukrainian territory by force because it has the forces to do so then I don't see how you can then justify any criticism of anything the US does. It has the forces to do whatever it wants and that is fine and dandy by your measure. You should just shut up about it all since you have no problem with anything Putin does in foreign lands.
 
naturalized said:
Tu quoque fallacy. And by the way, have you ever considered that maybe it does? And that Russian actions in the Ukraine have proven that very fact, thus leading to a greater westward tilt by the Baltic nations, Poland, etc, in the aftermath of your invasion?

Are the leaders of those countries hoodwinked by devious Ukrainian-American propaganda, or are they right to fear a world in which might makes right and your country can indulge it's revanchist fantasies at the whim of an upjumped kgb thug?

And if so, could it be that maybe the world really does need underwriting by American force of arms?
Click to expand...

Might makes right? Isn't it what US political motto is? When have you ever given a shit about what's right? Still looking for those weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, ten years after the invasion that created a turmoil that took close to a million lives and now the situation is looking worse than ever? The only thing that changed in Afghanistan since you got involved is the drug trade getting bigger and bigger. The list continues.

Don't Kill Bill said:
Its OK that is what I am here for and yes you did.

If you give a pass to Russia taking Ukrainian territory by force because it has the forces to do so then I don't see how you can then justify any criticism of anything the US does. It has the forces to do whatever it wants and that is fine and dandy by your measure. You should just shut up about it all since you have no problem with anything Putin does in foreign lands.
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I don't justify anything, you genius. All I'm saying is, America doesn't have some moral superiority on their side when it comes to Russia, or any other country for that matter, because despite what you and millions of others may believe, US government doesn't get involved in various conflicts around the world because they want to right the wrong. There are plenty of places on the planet, where things are very bad when it comes to crimes against humanity, terrible violence, genocide, etc, and yet you'll never see USA showing even a hint of concern. Do you ever wonder why? Of course not. Then again, try not to think too hard, you might sprain something.
 
Quite comical how something that has inescapably been created inside the Kremlin is being blamed on the US.
 
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