Qatar to be cleared of corruption for 2022 bid

I for one am glad that Qatar have been awarded the World Cup, the whole country is being developed for it. I might be bias as I live here and I'm earning money out of it. The stadium where the World Cup final is being hosted is a brand new city currently being built. There is a massive community of British and Irish who are making a lot of money out here too.

I don't agree with the way labour is treated but from what I have seen it is not as bad as people think. Obviously people dying on construction sites is unacceptable but they are doing everything they can to make sites safer. The main problems are workers with lack of knowledge of health and safety.

Dubai exploited migrant workers for years and continue to do so and nobody said anything to them. Singapore and HK are doing the same too.

Qatar is massively in to its sport now, I've been here about 16 months or so now and since then they've hosted some pretty big sporting events including Golf Masters, Tennis Open, Real Madrid vs PSG and World Squash championship plus many more.

There has never been any worry out here in Qatar that the World Cup would be taken away from them. People will say it's due to bribes and they could be right but even when I'm long gone from here, I will still be happy that Qatar have been given the opportunity to develop this country. It's not such a bad place. Also, trust me there is not an alcohol ban here, it's not as easily accessible to source like in the Western World but there are hundreds of bars and restaurants you can drink alcohol. Might not be acceptable enough for the World Cup but there's talk of relaxing the rules and making it possible in "zones" to drink in.
 
The number of people dying to build these things is way to high to simply put it down to poor safety standards. It reather points to a whole host of other issues as well.

Though, with the place being upgraded and developed for the World Cup, what do you think will actually happen after the event? I'm assuming that the current population and such won't have any uses for it and it will largely just sit there unused like many other major sporting event infastructure. So it wouldn't really be helping the Qatar people either, particularly when the money could be used better to fit into things they will actually use long term.
 
They're not only developing the infrastructure for the World Cup but many other things. I'm working on the new Hamad International Airport that has just been finished and it is one of the best airports in the world. My next project is a mall that will be of similar size to the Trafford Centre (for the Manc caftards). Here is a list of other projects including stadiums to be built - http://www.infoqat.com/projects
 
DirtyOldTown said:
They're not only developing the infrastructure for the World Cup but many other things. I'm working on the new Hamad International Airport that has just been finished and it is one of the best airports in the world. My next project is a mall that will be of similar size to the Trafford Centre (for the Manc caftards). Here is a list of other projects including stadiums to be built - http://www.infoqat.com/projects
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The manner in which they 'won' the world cup and the death toll is indefensible. Its great they want to develop themselves but at the expense of others?
 
ivaldo said:
The manner in which they 'won' the world cup and the death toll is indefensible. Its great they want to develop themselves but at the expense of others?
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You can't prove corruption so let's just leave that one out of it. Death toll is questionable also. Nobody should die on a building project anywhere but deaths happen every day on construction sites in the UK and all over the world. The project I have been working on has a record number of man hours on any project in Qatar and there hasn't been one fatality. There was a large number of deaths on stadiums in Brazil too don't forget.

Nobody wants deaths in Construction and Qatar are doing everything they can on a health and safety perspective and the standard here is better than other places I have visited.

The slavery of migrant workers however is something I don't agree with. I myself can't work for a different company in Qatar for 2 years after leaving my company. The company I work for have to give me permission to leave the country too which is also something I don't agree with but they are changing that rule soon.

Qatar is not perfect but no country is. Is there nothing you would change in any of your countries?
 
DirtyOldTown said:
You can't prove corruption so let's just leave that one out of it. Death toll is questionable also. Nobody should die on a building project anywhere but deaths happen every day on construction sites in the UK and all over the world. The project I have been working on has a record number of man hours on any project in Qatar and there hasn't been one fatality. There was a large number of deaths on stadiums in Brazil too don't forget.

Nobody wants deaths in Construction and Qatar are doing everything they can on a health and safety perspective and the standard here is better than other places I have visited.

The slavery of migrant workers however is something I don't agree with. I myself can't work for a different company in Qatar for 2 years after leaving my company. The company I work for have to give me permission to leave the country too which is also something I don't agree with but they are changing that rule soon.

Qatar is not perfect but no country is. Is there nothing you would change in any of your countries?
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Im sorry but the huge amount of evidence proves the contrary. Just because FIFA has pretended everything is hunky dory doesn't make it so.

An estimated 4000 deaths by the end of construction. FOUR THOUSAND. Why are you trying to kid yourself?
 
ivaldo said:
Im sorry but the huge amount of evidence proves the contrary. Just because FIFA has pretended everything is hunky dory doesn't make it so.

An estimated 4000 deaths by the end of construction. FOUR THOUSAND. Why are you trying to kid yourself?
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What evidence? The only bids being investigated now are the UK and Australia apparently.

I'm not trying to kid myself, all I'm saying is that I see first hand what the Qatari government are trying to do to try and stop people dying on Construction sites. The majority of the deaths on sites are from cardiac arrest, so on my site there are mobile medical units where each of the workers have to sit for a medical once a month to check blood pressures etc. Conditions aren't the best in the world but they're not the worst either.
 
DirtyOldTown said:
What evidence? The only bids being investigated now are the UK and Australia apparently.

I'm not trying to kid myself, all I'm saying is that I see first hand what the Qatari government are trying to do to try and stop people dying on Construction sites. The majority of the deaths on sites are from cardiac arrest, so on my site there are mobile medical units where each of the workers have to sit for a medical once a month to check blood pressures etc. Conditions aren't the best in the world but they're not the worst either.
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:lol: investigated by whom? FIFA - The people that have been accused of corruption themselves. The man who produced the original report has disowned the rewritten hash produced by FIFAs very own ethics committee chairman for god sake! Do a little research, or even read the damn guardian link that had been posted a little earlier in this thread, its painfully evident to anyone with half a brain cell that the whole voting process is corrupt.

'Qatar’s Mohamed bin Hammam, who stayed transparent, revealing the scale of vote-trading should “not surprise anybody”, confirming he was “looking to the interests of Qatar”, and paying the legal fees for Tahiti’s Qatar-supporting Reynald Temarii, another sting victim. Last week’s report found Bin Hammam had no impact on the process, and no direct links to the Qatar bid team – whose head described him four years ago as “definitely our biggest asset”.' - explain please.
 
DirtyOldTown said:
I for one am glad that Qatar have been awarded the World Cup, the whole country is being developed for it. I might be bias as I live here and I'm earning money out of it. The stadium where the World Cup final is being hosted is a brand new city currently being built. There is a massive community of British and Irish who are making a lot of money out here too.

I don't agree with the way labour is treated but from what I have seen it is not as bad as people think. Obviously people dying on construction sites is unacceptable but they are doing everything they can to make sites safer. The main problems are workers with lack of knowledge of health and safety.

Dubai exploited migrant workers for years and continue to do so and nobody said anything to them. Singapore and HK are doing the same too.
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unfortunately your view-point is quite biased because you are being paid by the very people who are in charge while 4000 people have died building stadiums for sport. it is unacceptable, and anyone who is chooses to work in such a country obviously is in dire need or is amoral. I don't know the particulars of your case, but to say that it happens in other places too, is a cop-out (obviously you would need to do that since you have to justify yourself)
 
4000 people have not died building the stadiums.

964 from Nepal, India and Bangladesh in 2012 and 2013. In all, 246 died from "sudden cardiac death" in 2012, the report said, 35 died in falls and 28 committed suicide. The number of deaths resulting from work-related injuries was low.

https://archive.today/9g7GC
 
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DirtyOldTown said:
I for one am glad that Qatar have been awarded the World Cup
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Mrs Smoker said:
4000 people have not died building the stadiums.

964 from Nepal, India and Bangladesh in 2012 and 2013. In all, 246 died from "sudden cardiac death" in 2012, the report said, 35 died in falls and 28 committed suicide. The number of deaths resulting from work-related injuries was low.

https://archive.today/9g7GC
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4000 is the estimated death toll if the current rate of deaths carries on.

Those figures you quoted are from Qatar government itself, so will probably be lower than it actually is. Autopsies are rarely done and 'sudden cardiac death' can mean pretty much anything. The death rate is not the only problem. It's the fact that migrants are often not paid for months, passports are confiscated so they can't leave, many live in crowded and cramped accommodation, health and safety is largely ignore and there is quite a lot of forced labor in the Qatar heat without labor.

All in all, Qatar are building their World Cup with modern day slavery.
 
sajeev said:
unfortunately your view-point is quite biased because you are being paid by the very people who are in charge while 4000 people have died building stadiums for sport. it is unacceptable, and anyone who is chooses to work in such a country obviously is in dire need or is amoral. I don't know the particulars of your case, but to say that it happens in other places too, is a cop-out (obviously you would need to do that since you have to justify yourself)
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So its amoral of me to go to work every day, work hard and then go home. It's like saying its amoral of you to not be working in Africa looking after sick children. Grow up. It's also not 4000 people that have died.

Why is it a cop out? How many people died building New York and Dubai but these are still frequently visited places? More people die on Dubai construction sites every day so are people who work there amoral?
 
ivaldo said:
:lol: investigated by whom? FIFA - The people that have been accused of corruption themselves. The man who produced the original report has disowned the rewritten hash produced by FIFAs very own ethics committee chairman for god sake! Do a little research, or even read the damn guardian link that had been posted a little earlier in this thread, its painfully evident to anyone with half a brain cell that the whole voting process is corrupt.

'Qatar’s Mohamed bin Hammam, who stayed transparent, revealing the scale of vote-trading should “not surprise anybody”, confirming he was “looking to the interests of Qatar”, and paying the legal fees for Tahiti’s Qatar-supporting Reynald Temarii, another sting victim. Last week’s report found Bin Hammam had no impact on the process, and no direct links to the Qatar bid team – whose head described him four years ago as “definitely our biggest asset”.' - explain please.
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Until it is proved that Qatar paid off officials then you can't prove anything. Them quotes don't actually prove anything either. Do you know the extent of the "gifts" that were given out as part of the England bid?
 
DirtyOldTown said:
So its amoral of me to go to work every day, work hard and then go home. It's like saying its amoral of you to not be working in Africa looking after sick children. Grow up. It's also not 4000 people that have died.

Why is it a cop out? How many people died building New York and Dubai but these are still frequently visited places? More people die on Dubai construction sites every day so are people who work there amoral?
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I consider anyone voluntarily working in Dubai amoral too.
It is about making a deliberate choice to work in a place with such conditions, and as regulated by law
 
DirtyOldTown said:
Until it is proved that Qatar paid off officials then you can't prove anything. Them quotes don't actually prove anything either. Do you know the extent of the "gifts" that were given out as part of the England bid?
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see this is a clear case of you trying to justify your life decisions. as a result you are being very defensive.

and using the FIFA reports to justify Qatar is laughable but not surprising for you
 
Back a little on topic..

What do we reckon to Bernstein's call for UEFA to boycott 2018? Who could England realistically get to join them?
 
Hal9000 said:
4000 is the estimated death toll if the current rate of deaths carries on.

Those figures you quoted are from Qatar government itself, so will probably be lower than it actually is. Autopsies are rarely done and 'sudden cardiac death' can mean pretty much anything. The death rate is not the only problem. It's the fact that migrants are often not paid for months, passports are confiscated so they can't leave, many live in crowded and cramped accommodation, health and safety is largely ignore and there is quite a lot of forced labor in the Qatar heat without labor.

All in all, Qatar are building their World Cup with modern day slavery.
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Autopsies will be rarely done? Why? It's not a third world country with third world facilities. Some of the facilities are better than they have in the UK.

You are absolutely correct though, the slave labour is the issue. I can only give my opinion but there is not a chance that people will be forced to work without water. Accommodation and confiscating passports is definitely an issue though. That shouldn't be continuing though - https://www.facebook.com/moigovqatar.en/posts/588867377878628
 
sajeev said:
see this is a clear case of you trying to justify your life decisions. as a result you are being very defensive.

and using the FIFA reports to justify Qatar is laughable but not surprising for you
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I don't have to justify my decisions to people on an internet forum. It was the best decision I've ever made.
 
DirtyOldTown said:
You can't prove corruption so let's just leave that one out of it. Death toll is questionable also. Nobody should die on a building project anywhere but deaths happen every day on construction sites in the UK and all over the world. The project I have been working on has a record number of man hours on any project in Qatar and there hasn't been one fatality. There was a large number of deaths on stadiums in Brazil too don't forget.

Nobody wants deaths in Construction and Qatar are doing everything they can on a health and safety perspective and the standard here is better than other places I have visited.

The slavery of migrant workers however is something I don't agree with. I myself can't work for a different company in Qatar for 2 years after leaving my company. The company I work for have to give me permission to leave the country too which is also something I don't agree with but they are changing that rule soon.

Qatar is not perfect but no country is. Is there nothing you would change in any of your countries?
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Do you honestly believe there was no corruption found in FIFA's report?:lol:

Garcia has come out and basically said what FIFA said was all shite! Let's be honest you're looking at this from a personal point of view, it benefits you for the WC to be held in Qatar so of course you're gonna want it held there, if I was you I'd want the same but you're being delussional if you think there was no corruption involved.

As for the deaths, theres still another 8 years to the WC and the death toll will rise and I'm sure far exceded that of Brazil.
 
DirtyOldTown said:
Until it is proved that Qatar paid off officials then you can't prove anything. Them quotes don't actually prove anything either. Do you know the extent of the "gifts" that were given out as part of the England bid?
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Ooo I dunno, when Qatar themselves name him as their biggest asset and then the report claims he had no involvement with the bid whatsoever, something's not quite right is it?

There is no reason whatsoever to hide the running of Fifa other than corruption. If they wanted to prove their innocence, along with Qatar, Russia and everyone else, why wouldn't they allow a thorough investigation to be made by someone they haven't hand selected themselves. And when that hand selected persons report is given what possible reason was there to not release it in its entirety?

Hey, as long as they pay your salary they can do not wrong right?
 
I dont think it adds anything to the discussion attacking the morality of people working on these projects in Qatar or Dubai. Where do you draw the line? There are corporations out there doing bad things on a much grander scale than this. And where do you draw the line? Companies like Monsanto developing seeds that do not naturally reproduce to keep developing world farmers beholden to them is pretty bad - is anyone who works for that company, from receptionist to scientist to CEO, all equally immoral? Or employees of Nestle? Or arms manufacturers like BAE Systems? That's a lot of British people who are immoral, right there.

I wouldnt criticise individuals who work for companies in a variety of circumstances because it is meaningless, these people have families to think about and may not understand the bigger picture. But I would criticise the companies themselves and the governments that are supposed to be regulating them to ensure these immoral activities are not happening.

As far as Qatar is concerned it is pretty clear the whole thing is corrupt, as I said before the evidence will be in the report which, if they have nothing to hide, will be published.
 
ivaldo said:
Ooo I dunno, when Qatar themselves name him as their biggest asset and then the report claims he had no involvement with the bid whatsoever, something's not quite right is it?

There is no reason whatsoever to hide the running of Fifa other than corruption. If they wanted to prove their innocence, along with Qatar, Russia and everyone else, why wouldn't they allow a thorough investigation to be made by someone they haven't hand selected themselves. And when that hand selected persons report is given what possible reason was there to not release it in its entirety?

Hey, as long as they pay your salary they can do not wrong right?
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David Beckham was the face of and a big asset to the England bid but I can't see him getting his hands dirty either. The Sheikh would have been a major asset without getting involved in the details of the bid. He was the face of it.

They don't pay my salary, I work for a company who is half owned by a major British contractor and am paid in pounds. Not like I have to explain myself to you, but when you're called amoral for earning an honest living then you feel like you have to justify yourself. (I know it wasn't you who called me this by the way)

If you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living ivaldo?
 
DirtyOldTown said:
I've just told you it was the best decision I've ever made, regardless of the money.

What do you do for a living?
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my work ensures that medicines are cheaper.

you don't need to justify yourself to me. it is your life but on the basis of what i know it is within my rights to call it amoral. not that you should care for it.
 
DirtyOldTown said:
So its amoral of me to go to work every day, work hard and then go home. It's like saying its amoral of you to not be working in Africa looking after sick children. Grow up. It's also not 4000 people that have died.

Why is it a cop out? How many people died building New York and Dubai but these are still frequently visited places? More people die on Dubai construction sites every day so are people who work there amoral?
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Are you defending Qatar's use of migrant workers and appalling working/living conditions and the deaths of over a thousand workers so far by saying people died building New York over 100 years ago?
 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11233407/Terror-financiers-are-living-freely-in-Qatar-US-discloses.html

So, apart from terrorist links, huge corrupt payments, a World Cup that is almost unplayable at it's usual time of year because players could die in the heat, horrific human rights violations in building the stadiums, two winning openly homophobic host countries one of which has a well known widespread problem with racism in it's football, half the EXCO leaving due to corruption, an FBI investigation in which they were able to wire tap a FIFA EXCO member after they blackmailed him with all of his years of corrupt dealings as a FIFA member, the Russian team destroying all their computers and losing all their data on their bid and the investigator hired to clear FIFA of any wrong doing saying their version of his report is a load of old cobblers....

There aint much wrong with the voting process and FIFA in general seem pretty above board.
 
DirtyOldTown said:
David Beckham was the face of and a big asset to the England bid but I can't see him getting his hands dirty either. The Sheikh would have been a major asset without getting involved in the details of the bid. He was the face of it.

They don't pay my salary, I work for a company who is half owned by a major British contractor and am paid in pounds. Not like I have to explain myself to you, but when you're called amoral for earning an honest living then you feel like you have to justify yourself. (I know it wasn't you who called me this by the way)

If you don't mind me asking, what do you do for a living ivaldo?
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Erm Mohammed Bin Hammam was the president of the asian football federation who had a hell of a lot to do with the bidding process, not an ex footballer who transparently was the face of our campaign. Are you aware MBH has received 2 life bans from Fifa for 'confliction of interest'? And that there is hard evidence of his corruption? Yet Fifa refute (somehow) he had anything to do with the bidding process.


Directly or indirectly they have a big impact on your salary yes. I manage a large multi million pound independent business.
 
DirtyOldTown said:
Dubai exploited migrant workers for years and continue to do so and nobody said anything to them. Singapore and HK are doing the same too.
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Singapore and Hong Kong have far safer construction sites and tougher H&S legislation than anywhere in Europe or the US, let alone the Middle East. Yes, both use migrant labour but they are not enslaved, their salaries are guaranteed by government and anyone abusing their payments or travel rights is jailed for it and their companies removed from tender lists. The migrant workers are lower paid than the local average but are paid way above what they can earn at home and send most of their salaries back to Bangladesh and India to support their families. Their living conditions in dorms aren't the Hilton but they are maintained to reasonable standards and are again, often far better than the home conditions of the workers. My only real gripe with Construction in Singapore is the way they still allow companies to transport labour to site on low sided flat beds which double as site vehicles rather than insisting on minibus transport, but again the local transport they would take to a site in Delhi or Dhaka is far more dangerous even before you factor in the state of the roads there.
 
I'm not going to think much of what is said by someone who admits to being prisoner in a country where it is more or less illegal to ctiticize the government and the country.
 
Bury Red said:
Singapore and Hong Kong have far safer construction sites and tougher H&S legislation than anywhere in Europe or the US, let alone the Middle East. Yes, both use migrant labour but they are not enslaved, their salaries are guaranteed by government and anyone abusing their payments or travel rights is jailed for it and their companies removed from tender lists. The migrant workers are lower paid than the local average but are paid way above what they can earn at home and send most of their salaries back to Bangladesh and India to support their families. Their living conditions in dorms aren't the Hilton but they are maintained to reasonable standards and are again, often far better than the home conditions of the workers. My only real gripe with Construction in Singapore is the way they still allow companies to transport labour to site on low sided flat beds which double as site vehicles rather than insisting on minibus transport, but again the local transport they would take to a site in Delhi or Dhaka is far more dangerous even before you factor in the state of the roads there.
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Singapore's situation isn't quite as clean as you put it - like Qatar, it has a kafala system for a significant portion of migrant workers; it also has significant human rights concerns with regards to migrant workers.

There are differences, though. Passport confiscation is illegal, but widespread - but it is at least codified in law. Also, there's actually NGO support for migrants in Singapore. While they're not exactly always loved by the government, situations like this are very unlikely to happen in Singapore, and it certainly wouldn't be brushed under the carpet.
 
Mrs Smoker said:
Did he really?

Thought he was annoyed by FIFA not publishing the whole report.
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Nope, he went rather further than that...
Fifa has been plunged into fresh chaos after a long-awaited probe into the controversial bidding process for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups was disowned by its own ethics investigator.

Michael Garcia, the former attorney for the southern district of New York hired as part of a drive to revive Fifa’s image, complained that a 42-page summary of his 430-page report contained “numerous materially incomplete and erroneous representations of the facts”.
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So, he's basically said they've lied by omission.
 
Blodssvik said:
I'm not going to think much of what is said by someone who admits to being prisoner in a country where it is more or less illegal to ctiticize the government and the country.
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No but its fun picking his argument apart.
 
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