I take it you didn't see Carrick carve out Falcao chance tonight and Blind create last weekend? Both are very good passers from deep. The DM tag means nothing really.
4-4-2
- Thread starter Pexbo
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I take it you didn't see Carrick carve out Falcao chance tonight and Blind create last weekend? Both are very good passers from deep. The DM tag means nothing really.
a - we can't keep neglecting the flanks and that's what we're doing with both 3-5-2 and 4-4-2 (diamond shape).
b - Januzaj is not a CM
c - we need fullbacks to play as fullbacks and surely we have better corner takers then a CB
d - Rojo, Jones and Falcao are a bit meah.
Id say we go 4-3-3
Rafael------Smalling---Rojo---------Shaw
--------------------Blind-----------------
---------------Herrera---Fellaini---------
Valencia-------------------------------Di Maria
---------------------Rooney------------------
As the man says himself, it's not about formations, it's about philosophy. Carrick effectively plays as a third centre back in the diamond anyway.
There's always a magic fix. A simple change that will transform everything, that the manager is too ignorant to see, but the forum can see clearly . Last week it was changing to 442. Now that that has been proved to not be the cure it has to be something else. And it seems playing Herrera is the magic bullet now. If he plays then the team smashes everyone.
Personally, I would not have started him although it didn't bother that much that Fellaini played and I can see why van Gaal selected him with the conditions and aerial threat Cambridge had. My annoyance was more that Herrera was left out and in the second half I thought we improved somewhat (some of that down to them tiring of course).
Two defensive midfielders, one player in midfield with pace, our only other pacey player up front, our best pass and move player out wide. How exactly would this have broken past their two banks of defenders?
In that formation I'd play Januzaj over Valencia every time. Don't mind Tony as a reserve right back so much as Rafael is made of glass (even though he was bad tonight) but his attacking play is almost none existent these days. Surprisingly enough Valencia actually has 5 assists this season but given the amount he sees the ball he should do more.
Didn't mean for today. Just in general. I quite like the balance more and industry. Don't get hung up on this DM tag for Carrick and Blind.
Fellaini on the right and Di Maria down the middle?
I know they're great passers, I just don't see how having two deep lying play makers would help against such a deep Cambridge side. There was already too much space between midfield and attack, I don't see how having two of them sit deep would have remedied that.
I wanted to finish it on a hard hitting note, like I said it's sad. We do need someone to scream 'fck it'.......Were a group of passengers at the minute.You couldnt remember some ex United player?
I'd give anything to see us line-up in a traditional 442 with overlapping fullbacks. I don't fancy any of the variants with one up top because we don't have the player to fulfill that role in my opinion.
They wouldn't have been deep lying when Cambridge began camping in their own half. It would have just meant we would have used the ball better in the middle of the park.
The biggest problem we have is that we do all the pressing and possession in their half and it's impossible not to against the tactics Cambridge play.
In general terms though, because we do this, we're limiting ourselves to half the pitch to work in. It gives us no chance of getting in behind them.
Until we can have confidence in our defence to start drawing them out of their own half and start using all the pitch to create space, we'll continue to play this high possession low penentration game.
In general terms though, because we do this, we're limiting ourselves to half the pitch to work in. It gives us no chance of getting in behind them.
Until we can have confidence in our defence to start drawing them out of their own half and start using all the pitch to create space, we'll continue to play this high possession low penentration game.
Honestly ?
Let's play spot the fullback
Aside of that, we should have been able to play through Cambridge if we had the conviction to play a forward pass North of the half way line.
Shocked tonight at our total lack of leadership on the field, can't see anyone who is willing to step forward either, Rojo perhaps.
That's why you need wingers and overlapping fullbacks. Don't allow them to defend narrow, stretch them horizontally.
This would probably not only solve our issues with doubling up on our wingbacks, but would create openings centrally.
Fully agree.
So, what we're saying, get it wide, get to the byline and cross it in.
Do you not think this is something we could be implementing now?
Shaw and Di Maria down the left. Rafael/Valencia and Januzaj down the right. Carrick, Blind or Herrera in Midfield. Mata/Rooney behind RVP/Falcao.
People might not agree with playing Di Maria out wide, but he could thrive in this system. We'd create a lot of space for him out wide and he can do his thing. He's also got the passing ability to put Shaw away on the overlap. Likewise for Januzaj. Rooney/Mata can drop deep and beef up the midfield when needed.
Simple minds.
City use width to exploit holes centrally. So do Madrid. If our overlapping fullback can commit their fullback, leving the likes of Di Maria with space to operate, he can do what he wants. Cut in with the ball, cut the ball back to the edge of the box, cross it. It used to cause panic in defences under Fergie when they saw their fullback being taken out of the game and their CB had to try and cover for them. Width is crucial in the Premiership.
We could have played 543 tonight and if the extra players were as gutless as some of this lot, it wouldnt have made a different. I think we really need to stop using the formation as an excuse. Its basically the same story as last year. There's a negative culture at the club right now. Its going to take a lot of money and inspiration to get us back at the level we should be at.
However about just play more positive players like Herrera?
EDIT: Are people really forgetting the positive football we were playing earlier in the season, till the manager made us play more conservatively?
Nah I don't think we have the players for it. Shaw and Di Maria could work but it's not what we spent £60m on Di Maria for (granted nor is playing him as a striker). And then we're back to the ineffective Valencia on the wing or the inconsistent Januzaj.
I also don't think Blind and Carrick in midfield is mobile enough, I think it's essential to have players carrying the ball forward while Herrera isn't cut out for a 2 man midfield.
I think it's easy to think up these teams, formations and tactics in theory and dream of the ideals but they always come with their own problems. Like Rooney dropping into midfield and leaving Van Persie or Falcao isolated up front. Or the opposition playing 3 in the middle, denying us a grip on the game and our wingers getting no service as a result.
Thank you @Pexbo for fighting the good fight.
Before tonight people were implying that with 4 at the back we'd be swashbuckling again. I hope to see less criticism of the 3-5-2 from now on. We can play poorly in any formation.
We were too gung-ho before and after Leicester LvG had to put a stop to it. The patient possession approach is his way of reducing the oppositions time/chances to attack us. I just don't think he trusts the defence enough to allow us to play in a less pragmatic way right now.
We were too gung-ho before and after Leicester LvG had to put a stop to it. The patient possession approach is his way of reducing the oppositions time/chances to attack us. I just don't think he trusts the defence enough to allow us to play in a less pragmatic way right now.
To be honest, I think you're massively overcomplicating it. Not too dissimilar to LVG. I see no reason why Herrera wouldn't succeed in a 2 man midfield with Carrick/Blind. He's energetic, can pass the ball and puts in a shift defensively.
Scholes wasn't exactly mobile, it's about intelligence, which Carrick and Blind are supposed to be all about.
Di Maria has played as a winger most of his career and earnt a move to Madrid based on this. He may have had one good season centrally, but to dismiss him as a winger is wrong. Look at his attributes and he is much more suited to playing out wide in my opinion.
It's not the ideal team for a 442, I know, but something has to give. All I'll say is that we'd look a hell of a lot better going forward with this set up. We may have to give a bit away defensively but, quite frankly, who cares right now. We're already looking unconvincing at the back but creating feck all going forward.
We've been lucky to get away with a good few of the games in a 352. That luck will run out.
Exactly! Fans like simple arguments. Last year, it was if only we played with a 4-2-3-1, we'd have 3 flexible attacking players with Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj and we'd be great. This year it's the 4-4-2. The sooner people accept that playing good football needs time, coaching, consistent practice and not a simply a modification of formation, the less complaining we are going to get over here.
How about we just stop trying to play 2 Strikers, get more players in midfield and play 4 at the back (more in midfield gives them more cover)
Good football doesn't need this much time. Especially not with the players we have at our disposal.
The problem is we were starting to play some good football (yes a bit too open defensively) earlier in the season until the switch to 352. That is what is so frustrating, to fix the issue he decided a complete formation change, rather than slightly tweaking what we had to fit. In fact he actually did it vs Chelsea and City and it worked well, so why didn't he just stick with that. That is what is annoying most fans tbh
We had a better player than the opponent on every position on the pitch tonight, if you still can't win then what more is there to be said. Tactics my arse.
Yeah moving the ball slowly and not attacking quickly doesn't mean a thing, I mean who cares about tactics.
You mean it was a masterplan designed to create feck all, so we could have an extra home game this season?
No but the game plan was to be careful in possession, that much was obvious and has been an obviously apparent theme most of the season.
We we're too risk averse.
We've no conviction of our actions at the minute, I'm of the mind, I've no idea how we fix this.
Another mass clear out ? Bring in a new core in central defence, CM, that ought to do it but it's feeling like a disease at the minute.
Di Maria, Herrera look like United players from last year despite excellent starts.
We need leaders.
how about this formation: 4141
DDG
Rafael Smalling Rojo Shaw
Blind
Fellaini Rooney Carrick Di Maria
RVP
DDG
Rafael Smalling Rojo Shaw
Blind
Fellaini Rooney Carrick Di Maria
RVP
Fullbacks didn't have wingers to link with and Valencia was shocking.
When Herrera came on he linked play down the wing better but it was too late.
When Herrera came on he linked play down the wing better but it was too late.
You're conpletely missing the point.
The point of this thread is to show that we can all chuck out potential formations and argue their merits like we have been doing all season but it's completely short sighted. People always sing a formations merits and how it would solve this and that problem but you can guarentuee it will have its own issues that people will overlook when they just assume in their head that it would win the game.
Side midfielders were too wide. This allowed a lot of space centrally to open up but only Rojo and Jones could use it to bring the ball out, which failed. Also, Fellaini and Adnan being so wide left no space for the full-backs to create any danger.