I said as much in several earlier posts in this thread. This is fundamentally a conflict of power and norms/ideas. The west sees this as a destabilization of the economic order whereas Putin sees this more as a regional issue between former Soviet states.
Russia Discussion
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I said as much in several earlier posts in this thread. This is fundamentally a conflict of power and norms/ideas. The west sees this as a destabilization of the economic order whereas Putin sees this more as a regional issue between former Soviet states.
Almost every other country in Europe is opposed to what Russia is doing. I mean ffs, Russia signed a treaty that's against what they're doing now. Russian doesn't get to make up it's own rules on its neighbours borders or politics.
Your point about them abusing their power is amusing. So the west can't sanction countries because they might go dark side but Russia can annex parts of neighbouring countries?
No but if I was Russian I would be a lot more upset about the overall state of my country and the direction it's going under Putin than sanctions from the EU. Also, I wouldn't whine about being persecuted while my country is invading it's neighbours.
Agreed. Cameron actually has a point here.
What does who the US works with have to do with Ukraine?
Absolutely nothing. Its just a way of deflecting the discussion away from Putin's complicity.
Try following the discussion.
I have and as far as I can tell, on this and most other forums, the go to response for those who support Putin on Ukraine is to criticise the US which is just off topic and a deflection. The whole argument boils down to 'well, the US did it' which is nonsense.
I don't support Putin. This is not my war, I'm not Russian and I don't live in Russia. I'm reacting to some nonsense posted in this thread where Raoul argues that the US are right in calling for Russia to be punished because Putin is corrupt and authoritarian.
When I point out that the US have a history of collaborating with corrupt and authoritarian regimes and that presently they are doing business with corrupt and authoritarian regimes, Raoul deflects by saying the reason why US are doing that is, well, because they just can. Being the most powerful nation and all that.
The argument boils down to this:
1. If it suits their interests, the US will collaborate and do business with corrupt and authoritarian regimes.
2. If it doesn't suit their interests, the US will accuse other regimes of being corrupt and authoritarian and demand sanctions.
You're misrepresenting my views. Being corrupt and authoritarian isn't so much a one off, there are other corrupt and authoritarian leaders in the world. He's invading a neighboring country on Europe's doorstep as a device to consolidate his power at home, all the while destabilizing Europe's economic and military order, which more or less means it destabilizes the global order. He's also fomenting an insurrection and stealing land of a neighboring country, whilst lying about it to world leaders and his own citizens. You apparently think that's not such a big deal - fair enough.
The same and much worse could be said about the US but you apparently think that's not such a big deal, it's just something that powerful countries on the top of the pecking order do - fair enough. I think it's double standards.
Countries are hypocrites. It's politics. That doesn't make Putins policy in Ukraine any more or less destructive. What bothers me is that people who make that argument seem more offended and threatened by American hypocrisy (and every other country in the world would be little better if we were in their position) than by Russian aggression and bullying of it's neighbours.
Double standards do exist, there's no way around that. That doesn't mean specific situations like the Russia-Ukraine crisis are above analysis and criticism.
No, they are certainly not. But surely you understand that the US (above all!) being all super vocal about it just stinks and people start gravitating toward 'supporting the underdog'. And that's not just me and my Slavic connection. If you follow the German press and forums it seems a widespread opinion that the US are the last nation on earth who should go around lecturing others on 'invading countries', for example.
I don't think that me acknowledging the wrong aspects of Putin's policy would move you towards a fairer and more balanced assessment of the situation.
Perhaps, but America can certainly can go around lecturing others about annexing portions of neighboring countries. They haven't done anything like that in nearly 200 years.
I'm not threatened by American hypocrisy, I'm threatened by American policy. The US bombed my country and killed my countrymen, twice. A few years back the US bombed Libya which is not full of ISIS who threaten to bring their terror to Europe. The US has the power to kidnap anyone they want and imprison him or her indefinitely. The US is spying on everybody, etc etc. Based on my previous and present experience, the US (directly or indirectly) are a bigger threat to my safety than Russia. And I can say all this without condoning whatever elements of Russia's involvement in Ukraine.
Yes you can but the fact that you constantly resort to it in a thread about Ukraine, not the US, clouds the issue and can easily be seen as a deflection. This thread isn't about who's the biggest threat to world peace or who's the bigger liar in world politics.
Meh. Everything in the modern era looks to be well within the confines of international law. I was thinking back to when Texas took a good chunk of Mexico.
So basically if your country, it's allies, people from your religion , nationality, ethnic group has ever done anything wrong you should shut up and not criticize other countries, groups, etc.
So basically nobody should ever criticize anyone else. look in the mirror before you criticize Russia, ISIS, North Korea, the West, any religious group or even the U.S
Is that about right?
So basically nobody should ever criticize anyone else. look in the mirror before you criticize Russia, ISIS, North Korea, the West, any religious group or even the U.S
Is that about right?
I don't think that any country, religion, political party etc should be exempt from criticism.
i see
What do you call NATO airstrikes? A humanitarian aid?
Do you see no differences between the protests in Kiev and what happened in Crimea?
Let me give you an obvious one, the Maidan protesters were peaceful for a couple months until they were fired on by the government while the first thing the "protestors" in Crimea did was show up in government buildings wearing ski masks and carrying weapons.
Do you see no differences between the protests in Kiev and what happened in Crimea?
Let me give you an obvious one, the Maidan protesters were peaceful for a couple months until they were fired on by the government while the first thing the "protestors" in Crimea did was show up in government buildings wearing ski masks and carrying weapons.
Peaceful, my ass. Let's imagine this situation in Washington DC in front of the White House. Start an unauthorized mass protest there and throw a couple of Molotov cocktails at the cops. Let's see what happens then.
There were no blood spilled in Crimea. Guess why that happened.
That's basically it. It's 'do what we say, don't do what we do'. The rest is just bullshit.
I don't think you're engaging in good faith and you clearly have an agenda here so i am not going to respond to your posts on this topic from now on.
I think everyone in this thread has an agenda. I certainly do, which is representing a different viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that.
Going by your posting history my understanding of your narrow worldview; USA's policies are fine as long as its pro-Israel or anti-Muslim. Every other conflict you generally find USA at fault.
Obviously you'll correct me if I'm wrong.
Is it really representing a different opinion or just a stick to get back at USA for their perceived historical injustices against your people? Can you not judge this conflict on its own merits?
No he can't
Certainly nothing wrong with that. We're all on a forum after all, it's kinda the whole point. But when coming into threads discussing current events which include wars, killings and other things that are life or death for so many people, I think a level of respect should be mandatory. I don't mean to post without emotion but that even strong views should be open to new facts and new developments. When someone ends up parroting what is basically propaganda I find it very distasteful. From experiences on other forums I've also noticed that for some people no amount of facts will change their mind ( the conspiracy theory mentality). This is still an ongoing situation that has global consequences not to mention lives at stake so I have a vested interest in it and will continue posting in the thread. It's just when you can predict a persons response to what you will type it kinda becomes pointless, like asking questions to the white house press secretary.
You should have realized by now that I was against any US involvement in Iraq, Syria, and Libya which are also Muslim countries. I am generally against the US sticking their nose into other nations businesses whether the countries are Muslim, Christian, communist, or whatever. I was also equally against the Russian interference in Yugoslavia, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc. I have no problem discussing the levels of responsibility of the Russian involvement in Ukraine but I certainly won't call Putin the new Hitler and other such nonsense and I also won't turn a blind eye on the US and EU's involvement in the conflict. There's literally zero balance in the way how this conflict has been treated so far.
Regarding Israel- I support Israel's position regardless of what other countries do, incl. the US.
Of course I can. In regards to the conflict in Yugoslavia, I have no issues whatsoever admitting that Milosevic should have been jailed in our own country for a number of things. I have no issue admitting that the murder of Muslims in Srebrenica is a war crime and that Mladic & co. should be jailed for that. I'm not an idiot. What I do have issues with is when war crimes committed by the US, NATO, Croats, Muslims, Albanians, etc. are just swept under the carpet and the murder of my countrymen being sold as 'collateral damage' and the bombing of my country being labeled as a 'humanitarian intervention', and the ethnic cleansing of my people from our lands being completely ignored. That's what I mean by zero balance and double standards.
Your entire view it seems is one of someone who has been hard done by the US or NATO and thus every debate, however unrelated, seems to drift back to finding a way to blame the former two.
Again, you can't compare the US and Ukraine. There's a reason why there isn't unauthorized mass protests in front of the White House with Molotov Cocktails.
So no American can ever criticise any other nation that uses force on a smaller neighbour?
I don't care about the US and I fail to see why past (and even ongoing) US policies should be brought up EVERY time a criticism is aimed at Russia.
EDIT: It's the argument of a child. "But Mommy, my friend got to do it; why can't I?"
You can criticise Russian foreign policy all you want, you can also paint Putin however you want.
The problem is the western media fail to report the 'whole' story, along with certain posters who continually fail to see that the US (CIA) have been involved in Ukrainian affairs for over a decade, and are partly responsible for the destabilisation.
There are plenty of people from countries which were not hard done by the US or NATO but who voice the same criticism. The public opinion in Germany, for example, is anything but favorable toward the US involvement in Ukraine.
That's actually not a balanced perspective. This is fundamentally an issue of Vladimir Putin, his 15 years of government mismanagement involving himself and his Oligarch friends stealing from his own country, then attempting to cover everything up through nationalism and foreign conquest (latest stop Ukraine). That's the core of this story and the western media in particular have been lacking in covering it accurately in their relativist attempts at appearing impartial. The Russian media are obviously government sponsored stooges who will parrott Putin's narratives or else get sacked or imprisoned, so nothing they say can be taken seriously. The western media have 50% of the story correct, but need to go further in examining how an unemployed KGB official has somehow amassed somewhere from 40-200 billion dollars in wealth.
I'm surprised you even expect balanced media reporting. Every nation or people will have a certain bias and report conflicts in a way which suits their agenda and world view. Of course, there will have been undeniable injustices committed against your people. That's not even questionable. Have there been any claims or suggestions by any poster on here saying USA/Europe being perfect?
