Theres a lot missing from the book but I'm pretty sure being shown that room is new?
Books A Song of Ice and Fire (Books) | TV show? What TV show?
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Theres a lot missing from the book but I'm pretty sure being shown that room is new?
They have set her up to be strong, fully in the knowledge of what was in store. I'm sure she has a trick or two up her sleeve yet.
Neh, they give her a face from that room.
Well, she goes out and about under false identities doesn't she, and they've shown none of that yet. I think the room full of faces is a visual representation for non readers about what the faceless men are and to soften them up for potential dual identities for Arya?
When they send her out to fend for herself? Feck I'm gunna have to re-read.
I don't remember that, but there's lots I've forgotten to be fair!
The problem with what happened in the end is - Ramsay is supposed to be a villain, in both the media.
If that wasn't the case, this could have maybe gone in a Drogo-Danaerys direction with the woman slowly taking charge of the marriage, though things were not exactly the same in that situation.
I don't see Sansa ever having any sort of control now - so it's more of the same, replace Joffrey with Ramsay.
If that wasn't the case, this could have maybe gone in a Drogo-Danaerys direction with the woman slowly taking charge of the marriage, though things were not exactly the same in that situation.
I don't see Sansa ever having any sort of control now - so it's more of the same, replace Joffrey with Ramsay.
I don't remember that much of her storyline to be honest, certainly not details like the rooms she goes in. I do remember her living in the streets for a while, robbing people and then doing something wrong which he gets blinded for.
I'd like to believe it was an honest attempt to keep the story simple but for my money if they wanted to keep the cast down they could have just had Sansa keep her own story and have the Ramsay - fake Arya thing happen off-camera. Basically what they've done is take a major character and squeezed their role into that of a character whose name I could barely remember.
I don't they're making decisions like this to intentional ruin the women in the books, I just don't think the showrunners particularly care as much about the female characters or their storylines/characterisations, nor do they seem to understand why other people do - it's gotten to the stage now where they're shoe-horning rape scenes into character's lives as a plot device - to show that they're 'struggling through adversity' or as a lazy and overly visceral metaphor to show how bleak their plight is - or just for cheap shock factor.
Well, Firstly it's all to do with Ramsey's legitimisation and building up his character for the impending situation with Stannis. Secondly, I think Sansa's plight will be used as bait for Jon Snow to prepare to attack Winterfell with a wildling army and get stabbed for doing so.
it would work much better for the audience to have Sansa, a character they've invested in, rather than some unknown woman pretending to be Arya that gets abused off camera.
I think you're reaching a bit about the rape/plot device thing.
Your first sentence sort of proves my point though, in the sense that the showrunners were happy to sacrifice Sansa's story in order to use her as a plot device to further the storylines of male characters (Ramsay and Stannis, and potentially Jon as you say). If I'm coming off a little touchy about it its just because I'm an admirer of how G R R M has written female characters with genuinely and independently interesting storylines and characterization (something of a rarity for the genre) and its a shame to see them pissed away.
It terms of rape/abuse as a plot device, there's been plenty of times when they've used the rape or abuse of female characters to either further their plotline, or simply as a shortcut to enhancing the characterisation of a male character. An example that jumps to mind is Joffrey getting Roz to beat that other prostitute while he threatens them with a crossbow. It's not referenced in the book and it does nothing for her storyline, the only purpose it serves is to show that Joffrey's an arsehole, and to build up to Joffrey killing her, which again serves the same purpose. The series has a trend of having male characters rape or threaten to rape female characters, major or minor, basically as a lazy way to say 'this guy is a baddie'. I'm sure it happens a couple of times in the books, but you barely get an episode without it.
Wouldn't be surprised if there's some sort of bargain where the Sand Snakes end up giving him an antidote or something.
Whatever their reasons and motivations i just think this season has been poor.
Im watching it with 2 people who've never read the books and they're enjoying some storylines (basically any that have some vague resemblance to the book)
the more they change the storyline, the more bored or pointless they find them.
Overall they think this season is barely above the likes of eastenders - its occasionally fun trash
They're shoehorning characters into roles and situations that dont suit them and force them to act in a manner that just doesn't sit right.
I just think the show writers have listened too much to fans who's opinions are ... well wrong basically.
The story badly needs the likes of the iron isles and a proper dorne.
It needs new characters to be introduced. It doesn't need a funny / witty scene with Tyrion every single week no matter how pointless.
It doesn't need an action or a fight scene every second week - the first season had what? One action scene? (Eddard vs Jaime)
I just kind of feel like they've lost sight of what made the story and the show interesting.
Im watching it with 2 people who've never read the books and they're enjoying some storylines (basically any that have some vague resemblance to the book)
the more they change the storyline, the more bored or pointless they find them.
Overall they think this season is barely above the likes of eastenders - its occasionally fun trash
They're shoehorning characters into roles and situations that dont suit them and force them to act in a manner that just doesn't sit right.
I just think the show writers have listened too much to fans who's opinions are ... well wrong basically.
The story badly needs the likes of the iron isles and a proper dorne.
It needs new characters to be introduced. It doesn't need a funny / witty scene with Tyrion every single week no matter how pointless.
It doesn't need an action or a fight scene every second week - the first season had what? One action scene? (Eddard vs Jaime)
I just kind of feel like they've lost sight of what made the story and the show interesting.
Bronn vs that Knight of the vale also comes to mind.
Ok but the show wasn't built on action scenes. They were there as a plot device, not as an end in themselves.
Tbh im not sure what particular part of the more recent seasons disappoint me. I have a hard time putting my finger on it.
Just feels like their direction is based on ... I dunno, twitter hits.
Seems like they say - well people like tyrion so lets throw a scene with him in, doesn't move the plot forward or develop his character in anyway but he gets a funny line so its all good.
That rape scene caused a bit of a storm and got people talking, lets have another.
etc.
Feels like the story is being decided by committee. A stupid, shallow committee with the attention span of a 5 year old on acid.
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I liked it when tjey started deviating from the books as I would then stop waiting for certain things to happen, but it's really become not that much worth watching.
I don't think deviating from the books was the problem here at all, it's just poor writing based on a relatively poor book. Staying faithful to the books wouldn't have prevented the awful dialogue we got in the Sand Snake's first scene, for example.
We agree on that.
It's not like any of the five books were litterary wonders, but the individual storylines were at least enough to keep you reading through pages describing how this turn on the road is the different from the one before. But chopping and changing how things go down, gives me the impression that they're just rushing to the season finale. I'm wondering whether I would have like the show as much if I had not read the books.
This season was always gonna be a lose-lose situation. Personally I always found AFFC and ADWD very slow so I have no issues with Dan and Dave lopping off most of the fat from both books and stitching together a tighter story that gets everyone to roughly where they're supposed to be. But then, I was never one to care about changes. Love the books but also the tv show. I know people are pissed but I wouldn't compare it to Eastenders. Do a direct adaptation, annoy tv fans with a slow story and way too many characters (Sure people won't agree but look at the tv thread people are finding Ayra storyline boring) change everything and annoy book fans. They ended up doing something in the middle and pissed of both.
I'm fine with them changing stuff.
Their changes have just been crap and poorly told
Their changes have just been crap and poorly told
Have to agree.
You don't see shows like the Wire or to a lesser extent Breaking Bad resort to such cheap stuff. The feeling I get is they know they are sitting on a gold mine regardless of what they come up with.
They badly need to kill Bronn or Sir Jaime, if just to make the viewer put some skin in the game.
The entire time I was watching that "fight" scene (which might as well have been set to the Benny Hill theme song), I felt no urgency, no real sense of "oh, I wonder how they're going to get out of this?" It was painfully obvious there was layers and layers of plot armour on everyone in that fight. It didn't feel Game of Thrones at all.
The guy who said they've listened too much to the fans is spot on.
The entire time I was watching that "fight" scene (which might as well have been set to the Benny Hill theme song), I felt no urgency, no real sense of "oh, I wonder how they're going to get out of this?" It was painfully obvious there was layers and layers of plot armour on everyone in that fight. It didn't feel Game of Thrones at all.
The guy who said they've listened too much to the fans is spot on.
Still haven't watched any of this season. Everything I hear about it makes me sad.
I get that the show and the books are two completely different entities now, but I just don't see the sense or thinking behind some of the changes.
I get that the show and the books are two completely different entities now, but I just don't see the sense or thinking behind some of the changes.
Yeah it really feels like two separate entities at this point. Got a bad feeling they're gonna feck up the tv show.
Some people in the show thread have all but predicted Cersei's trial and Robert Strong her champion. I refuse to believe they haven't peaked around the internet.
Did the Margaery thing happen in the books?
I don't know what they could do with her storyline though? They seem to have cut lots of stories and/or characters out, which means they've merged a few stories and dropped whole sections of the books. There are strong female Characters in the show like Catelyn, Brienne, Margery, Olena, Cersei and Arya. I don't know what else they would have done with Sansa, other than waiting around in the vale pacifying that snivelling kid. She got off much more lightly than Jeyne Poole did in the books. If they wanted to really shock viewers, it could have been far worse.
To an extent yes, Cersei has her arrested, but it's nothing to do with Loras. In the books Cersei schemes to have her arrested for not being a virgin as she claims, and has witnesses who say they've slept with her, I think?
Yep.
Loras in not even in Kings Landing at this point.
Anyone else find it puzzling why the other gay dude agrees to become a witness?
I mean he's gay as well. Why would he do that?They showed him being captured and (potentially) tortured in the brothel earlier in the season.Yep.
Loras in not even in Kings Landing at this point.
Anyone else find it puzzling why the other gay dude agrees to become a witness?
Oh makes sense then. Looked far to cocky though considering he's fecked as well.
Wasn't it one of the Kettlebacks who claimed he slept with her? In exchange for sex with Cersei or something like that.
Oh yeah. Ta.
Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know.
The deviation with Sansa is a little weird. I know where it's going and what it's setting up (Jon's stabbing) but the whole point of Sansa's arc in the books is that she is becoming stronger and learning to play the 'game'. I can't see her coming out the other side of being raped any stronger. So they have just killed one whole character arc in the entire books. It's pretty cool that they are taking their own route to the end but obviously Sansa isn't disposable in the books just yet so it kind of makes no sense to use her. Also I reckon Jaime might die and he's another one who seems to have a pretty important part to play too (I reckon he'll survive this Stoneheart execution plot).
Funnily enough I probably won't be able to decide just how good this season is until I have read Winds of Winter. I do tend to struggle watching adaptions though because I get too much into the books and let the shows/movies piss me off too much.
Funnily enough I probably won't be able to decide just how good this season is until I have read Winds of Winter. I do tend to struggle watching adaptions though because I get too much into the books and let the shows/movies piss me off too much.
Yeah, it's one of the points where the author has aped the Wars of the Roses/Henry VIII, clearly inspired by Anne Boleyn's demise. Since Natalie Dormer played Anne Boleyn in The Tudors I reckon they felt forced to change it around a bit
This.
The writing (and some casting) this season has been mostly poor and is still going downhill.
The Sand snakes are just horribly bad, it's like watching a bad episode of Xena or something.
Yep.
Loras in not even in Kings Landing at this point.
Anyone else find it puzzling why the other gay dude agrees to become a witness?
Isn't he dead ? I seem to recall him getting rekt by burning oil in Dragonstone.
I always found their bits the most boring in the book anyway.
the storylines they've dropped are only slightly more interesting the Gryphon kid, the sandy peoples other prince who thinks he can speak dragon and Lady Stoneheart but I'd like to see them more than that rubbish.
@kidbob lays it out really well above, but Sansa's story is about basically running the Vale, learning the ropes of the 'game of thrones' and starting to get the better of Littlefinger in that respect. It's not a huge role in the context of the series arc, but it was good character development and a nice plotline seeing her escape King's Landing and develop from the naive girl she was when she arrived in the capital into a player to be reckoned with in the Vale.
It's less of an issue of 'strong' female roles, but realistic and nuanced ones. I understand that there's a need to simplify things as the series doesn't have a narrative voice like the books do, but the female characters have lost far more nuance between the book and the series than the male characters have and it's weakened the show considerably.
He got seriously injured during the Siege of Dragonstone but his status is unconfirmed, so.. He's certainly not dead yet.