feck the Isreal/Islam one upmanship/debate off to the appropriate thread or I'll ensure none of you can take part in this discussion.
Battlefield Calais: 'the swarm'
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Yea but you're using IS to make a point, which isn't a point to be made at all. These guys didn't even do an Eid prayer, so using them as an example of 'the Muslim way' is a bit naive.
(And I'm not saying that every other Muslim country is accommodating to gay people, it's just if you're gay in Israel it's the same as in Muslim countries).
But this is too much of a derailment.
Hipster CE topic of choice.
not a massive fan but Sacha Baron Cohen said the closest he came to death was dressed up in hot pants (i know) and being chased and having a mob throwing stones at him in jerusalem.
sorry for that visual but.......
this has nothing to do with sexual preference but humankind
sorry for that visual but.......
this has nothing to do with sexual preference but humankind
Tbf, when you have posters saying use landmines to keep refugees out of Israel, what exactly do you expect? Obviously someone is going to respond to that.
So what though? There are loads of intolerant countries, but yep, this has nothing to do with the migrant crisis. Back on topic, I'd second the policing of safe zones in North Africa, but doesn't seem to be on the agenda at the moment, given the lack of desire for full on intervention by the west.
.. or they may have just seen some of his movies.
absolutely fecking mental to even think that , where does that type of thinking come from? and don't mean the poster that put that out there but the very thought of it.
eyepopper - LOL - maybe they have seen a film or two of his!
Final word on the derailment - Israel's border with Syria is nasty at the best of times a they are STILL technically at war with Assad. Those landmines protect against Syria, Hezbollah and now ISIS. Nothing to do with refugees who receive treatment in Israel when possible and in itself a political minefield of the highest order.
Firstly we need to stop this petty bashing of Israel. Muslims don't want to go there, we all know how they hate the Jewish people, so let it be now.
Secondly what on earth is going on in some of the other Arab countries. Strange attitude for some to assume that it's Europe's responsibility to take in every Arab refugee when it patently isn't and when some Arab countries are refusing to take in any. Surely it's time to put the pressure on Saudi Arabia and the other rich gulf states isn't it? Why aren't the refugees flooding there I wonder? Would make more sense.
I never thought I'd be on here praising Cameron but here I am.
The EU was not caught off guard by this at all either, it's been moving towards this for a year or two now.
To my mind the government of a country has a responsibility to keep the land and the people of that country as safe and secure as possible. In places like the EU the member states also have that same responsibility to other member states. Over the last year or two, with the increased terrorist threat, the security services in the UK have been working flat out to keep us as safe as possible and they have done a good job. Hopefully the security forces of the other member states have done the same.
We want them to keep on working hard to keep us safe but it's an impossible job if Europe carries on behaving the way it is doing right now. You can't allow masses of people from the Arab lands (terrorist areas) into Europe countries, most claiming to be refugees desperately in need of a safe haven, without suitable checks. We already know that most of them are not refugees in need of a safe place to live because they had already escaped Syria and had a safe place to live before they set off for Europe. Since they landed in Europe they have refused offers of a safe place to live so there's nothing desperate about their situation. One of them actually refused to accept asylum when they landed in Europe and risked the life of his his 9-month pregnant wife and unborn child by dragging them across Europe purely because it fitted his agenda? What sort of person does something like that? Now they are talking of sending the women and children off on foot if they do not get their own way in Hungary. Don't you think it's sickening that they are being so cruel to their own wives and children?
Can't believe you have the audacity to call Cameron a "vindictive cnut" when people are behaving like that towards their own supposedly "desperate" families. Those poor wives and kids have had it bad enough as it is by being dragged around Europe unnecessarily.
People really need to stop, think and look at the bigger picture here because it will reveal so much.
Anyway back to Cameron. Today he has announced that the UK will take in more refugees - but from the refugee camps. Brilliant decision. These are the people who are genuinely in need of temporary resettlement. The genuine refugees from war. Also he's given another £100m in aid to those camps.
So, while we are talking about money how much have the rich gulf states given in aid? Anyone know? When are they going to take in some refugees? Anyone know that? How many refugees from the camps has Russia taken in? China? Japan? America? The rest of the world? Anyone know? Time to stop blaming Europe for the rest of the world's failures Blame them instead.
Secondly what on earth is going on in some of the other Arab countries. Strange attitude for some to assume that it's Europe's responsibility to take in every Arab refugee when it patently isn't and when some Arab countries are refusing to take in any. Surely it's time to put the pressure on Saudi Arabia and the other rich gulf states isn't it? Why aren't the refugees flooding there I wonder? Would make more sense.
I have to disagree with you there. The only people who are getting agitated are the ones who are reacting emotionally and not thinking things through. (Most remember that for a small island we took in 300,000 from across Europe last year and the year before. Not bad going since we have nowhere to put them all.) Part of that has been fuelled by the media campaigns which are playing on people's emotions because it increases their viewing figures. Sky's coverage has been particularly bad and embarrassingly overly emotional and the BBC's coverage is not much better.
I never thought I'd be on here praising Cameron but here I am.
The EU was not caught off guard by this at all either, it's been moving towards this for a year or two now.
To my mind the government of a country has a responsibility to keep the land and the people of that country as safe and secure as possible. In places like the EU the member states also have that same responsibility to other member states. Over the last year or two, with the increased terrorist threat, the security services in the UK have been working flat out to keep us as safe as possible and they have done a good job. Hopefully the security forces of the other member states have done the same.
We want them to keep on working hard to keep us safe but it's an impossible job if Europe carries on behaving the way it is doing right now. You can't allow masses of people from the Arab lands (terrorist areas) into Europe countries, most claiming to be refugees desperately in need of a safe haven, without suitable checks. We already know that most of them are not refugees in need of a safe place to live because they had already escaped Syria and had a safe place to live before they set off for Europe. Since they landed in Europe they have refused offers of a safe place to live so there's nothing desperate about their situation. One of them actually refused to accept asylum when they landed in Europe and risked the life of his his 9-month pregnant wife and unborn child by dragging them across Europe purely because it fitted his agenda? What sort of person does something like that? Now they are talking of sending the women and children off on foot if they do not get their own way in Hungary. Don't you think it's sickening that they are being so cruel to their own wives and children?
Can't believe you have the audacity to call Cameron a "vindictive cnut" when people are behaving like that towards their own supposedly "desperate" families. Those poor wives and kids have had it bad enough as it is by being dragged around Europe unnecessarily.
People really need to stop, think and look at the bigger picture here because it will reveal so much.
Anyway back to Cameron. Today he has announced that the UK will take in more refugees - but from the refugee camps. Brilliant decision. These are the people who are genuinely in need of temporary resettlement. The genuine refugees from war. Also he's given another £100m in aid to those camps.
So, while we are talking about money how much have the rich gulf states given in aid? Anyone know? When are they going to take in some refugees? Anyone know that? How many refugees from the camps has Russia taken in? China? Japan? America? The rest of the world? Anyone know? Time to stop blaming Europe for the rest of the world's failures Blame them instead.
Best post thus far.
Mad the way so many people happily discount religion and agree its bollocks, then something like this happens and their first instinct is to say a religion should be the over riding determining factor in how and who responds.
That guy from UKIP said pretty much the same yesterday, he just used less words.
i look at the map and see that counties that have done f all are close to the problem. but there is a certain kind of fellowship in religions. i do not prescribe to any myself.
can the russians and the saudis work together , does IS fear the saudi state at all? i know that the russians could influence the syrians.
Do I look like I fecking care, Uzz?
We're talking about culture here too. On that basis, surely you'd expect more of their (oil wealthy) Arab brethren to step up.
So the inaction of some is justification for the inaction of all... excellent argument.
I guess people came up with similar reasons to ignore the plight of the Jews in the 30's and 40's.
Yes, I would, but I wont stand here and say 'oh well, if they're doing nothing I dont see why I should do anything!' and actually believe that is any sort of morally valid argument.
no - i think you my point wrong or i got it wrong in writing it. the kingdom is so much closer and could broker a deal possibly. am not exonerating any state which turns these people away. just some need to step in and become involved. even minimally in a diplomatic way. it would be better to get involved in a humanitarian way as well.
Nobody is arguing against helping them, but to what extent is the issue. But what about the cure - nobody is really talking about the core problem here which is to repair/ take out the aggressors that feed into the smugglers pockets.
I addressed that above. The only long term solution is to help the people make those countries habitable for themselves.
There is a time and place for that discussion though.
The problem needs to be addressed from a multitude of dimensions. But right now there are tens of thousands with no homes or security and people dying at sea, so its a question of priorities really.
Besides according to some these people are doing this by choice, can't see those people having the stomach or appetite required to address the bigger issues.
I found this to be an interesting article on migration: Prepare yourselves: The Great Migration will be with us for decades
Excellent post. Its often overlooked that the UK contributes *far* more in aid to these areas than other EU countries.
The greater proportion of the vulnerable population are either still in Syria or the countries immediately bordering it, those migrants trying to reach northern Europe are but a minority of the total. People can make themselves feel all nice and worthy by posting #refugeeswelcome on social media, but the push factors involved will be as ever-present as before. Do you suppose that the same individuals or NGOs would type #airstrikes or #bufferzone?
I've seen some in this thread draw comparisons between this migrant crisis and the Jews prior to WWII: taking a specific example from that period, would posters like to see an operation similar to the Kindertransports put into effect?
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That discussion should have been 4 years ago, but the UN is incapable of taking any action because of the Security Council. Russia wants to keep its only ally in the Middle East, regardless of his use of chemical weapons, while the West wants a more democratic government that was the original intent of the protesters in Syria. Even if there was a coalition willing to go in and exterminate ISIS, which there isn't since no one wants to foot the bill, Iraq is an example of what would happen. Alternatively, it would end up like Libya since no one would want to maintain the necessary occupying/rebuilding force necessary to succeed. In-fighting between different groups who can't get over ethnic or religious differences and fighting the occupying force would prevent long-lasting success of such a mission. Iran and the Saudis would continue to fight for influence to bring Syria under their particular umbrella.
I think most just see people suffering and want more done to help them, as for what form that takes, well most people aren't really that familiar with the logistics of large scale humanitarian efforts.
I don't think we should take too many pointers from the efforts made to help the Jews, simply because the lack of response to the plight of the Jews was, and best part of a century later, still is, nothing less than shameful, not that we like to talk about it too much beyond waxing lyrical about how we would never let anything like that happen again.
At the same time, I have a lot more respect for those who tried to do something than I do for those who stood by and made excuses as to why they couldn't or shouldn't help those people.
Why the guck has the topic of Israel got to come into every discussion here?
Which is why something needs to be done to address the refugee issue, because the tide of people trying to get away isn't going to stop any time soon.
Unless you think we should send in the troops to shoot anyone that tries to leave, and turn the music up really loud at home so we can't hear the screaming.
Would anyone advocate sending ground troops into Syria now?
Err..to deal with ISIS not shoot refugees @Eyepopper
Err..to deal with ISIS not shoot refugees @Eyepopper
Not a chance ground troops will be sent in there.
The west will follow the tried and trusted method of training and arming the opposition, because thats worked out really well in the past.
Something more has to be done to secure their homeland so,these poor people don't have to take such risks with their lives
Throwing around Israel and UKip in these discussions is depressing.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...at-Migration-will-be-with-us-for-decades.html
After reading that I think Cameron has done the right thing here, eventually. Only taking refugees from UN camps on the Syrian border discourages dangerous crossings of the med and gives opportunity for proper process. On reflection I would say Merkel has bodged this, her actions have only encouraged migrants to take their lives in their hands on a mad scramble to Germany and only enfranchises those with the wealth to pay passage. As @Nick 0208 Ldn mentioned, the most desperate are those left at the camps with no wealth to move anywhere else.
I do believe that we should take the 18000 recommended I must add. I am not sure how we can justify not doing when we take so many economic migrants.
After reading that I think Cameron has done the right thing here, eventually. Only taking refugees from UN camps on the Syrian border discourages dangerous crossings of the med and gives opportunity for proper process. On reflection I would say Merkel has bodged this, her actions have only encouraged migrants to take their lives in their hands on a mad scramble to Germany and only enfranchises those with the wealth to pay passage. As @Nick 0208 Ldn mentioned, the most desperate are those left at the camps with no wealth to move anywhere else.
I do believe that we should take the 18000 recommended I must add. I am not sure how we can justify not doing when we take so many economic migrants.
Northern Ireland ministers have already made pleas to Cameron to introduce some of them to this region
Agreed, but thats not going to be sorted anytime soon.
This is the decades of foreign policy coming home to roost unfortunately, and there is no quick or easy fix.
Hard to know how its going to be sorted really.
In the meantime something needs to be done to help the people who are risking their lives today/tomorrow and in the weeks and months to come.
I assume you didn't see the tweet by that Ukip knuckle dragger yesterday, blaming those kids 'greedy' parents for them washing up on that beach?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/budapest-vienna-eu-walk-photos_55e9bc7fe4b093be51bb4d7b?uyzumcxr
i can't see this ending well. #1 - down turn in the economy , #2 desperate people on the move. europe loves this kind of stuff.
i can't see this ending well. #1 - down turn in the economy , #2 desperate people on the move. europe loves this kind of stuff.
This is going to get a lot worse. A lot more effort has to go into stabilizing Syria.