Pretty sure Real/Barca/Bayern wouldn't lose to Olympiakos and Zagreb in their first two games of the group stages.
FC Bayern 2015/16
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Pretty sure Real/Barca/Bayern wouldn't lose to Olympiakos and Zagreb in their first two games of the group stages.
If any EPL team played like Bayern or had similar success, we would have had mutiple threads discussing if that team is the "greatest football team ever". This game just shows Pep's susceptibility in CL away games. I wouldn't discount them in any way. They are still the favorite for this year's CL ahead of Barca/Real.
Counter jinx?
. Barca is behind only due to CL curse. When your front 3 are all fit and in form it's irrelevant how the opponents play.
Now why would they be favourites ahead of those two sides?
Didn't Bayern Munich lose 0-2 to Arsenal when they won the CL in 2013?
If you think they're susceptible in CL away games, and I don't disagree, then why are they favorites?
Barca should be favorites. Messi will come back, and once he does, Barca are still the top team in the world. Sitting back against them is tough and when you actually press well and get forward a bit it's often a pyrrhic victory, as Juve saw in last year's final, since then Neymar-Suarez-Messi have space in behind to counter. I think that combination, where they don't really get worse even as they lose control of a game (and maybe even improve) means they are still favorites.
We aren't favourites for anything until we sort the midfield mess. All the possession stats cover over the big fat problem in our team. Since Schweinsteiger + Martinez ruled Europe in 2013, we've never had a brilliant midfield set-up again. It looks all nice and pretty, but it's not good enough against top teams. For example, we beat Dortmund convincingly because we bypassed the midfield with long balls. We wouldn't have otherwise. That's how underwhelming it is.
We had a few great spells in various set-ups, but they were all ruined by injuries or Pep's tactical experiments. Until we find a stable and healthy midfield set-up (without Alonso!!!), we need a lot of luck to win the CL against Barca/Real/PSG/Juve and will struggle against all 4 English teams.
I'm not too worried about the loss against Arsenal yet. They played really well and it could just be our yearly underwhelming CL group feck-up. If Lewandowski scored one of his chances or Neuer didn't feck up, we wouldn't have a big discussion now. I'm actually glad we lost. Well not glad, I'm annoyed. But hopefully it gives Pep something to think about. There's a fundemantal flaw in the team. We need to fix it and we need to stop deluding ourselves it's not there just because very few teams in the world can exploit it.
We had a few great spells in various set-ups, but they were all ruined by injuries or Pep's tactical experiments. Until we find a stable and healthy midfield set-up (without Alonso!!!), we need a lot of luck to win the CL against Barca/Real/PSG/Juve and will struggle against all 4 English teams.
I'm not too worried about the loss against Arsenal yet. They played really well and it could just be our yearly underwhelming CL group feck-up. If Lewandowski scored one of his chances or Neuer didn't feck up, we wouldn't have a big discussion now. I'm actually glad we lost. Well not glad, I'm annoyed. But hopefully it gives Pep something to think about. There's a fundemantal flaw in the team. We need to fix it and we need to stop deluding ourselves it's not there just because very few teams in the world can exploit it.
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What do you think you're missing in midfield? Is Vidal not working out?
I feel the refusal to return Javier Martinez to his treble winning midfield role will continue to haunt Bayern.
He needs to stay fit and play better first. It's not Pep's fault in this case. I agree that he's in theory better as a defensive midfielder than at centerback, but at the moment he's nowhere near the player he was in 12/13, no matter where he plays. I think he missed about 14 of the 28 months since the CL win due to injuries so it's not surprising. He's slower and his passing is just fecking awful right now. He kept it simple in 12/13 of course, but he still had a very good shortpassing game, kept the ball well under pressure and instantly passed it forward after winning it back for us. At the moment, he's just useless on the ball. He wouldn't help us in midfield in that form at all.
Pep has to shoulder some of the blame though surely? The moment he came in he decided to use Martinez as a CB. Couldn't do much for the lad's confidence, especially after the season he just had.
I'm not sure Vidal is anywhere close to 100%. He has problems with his knee all the time, got injections so that he's fit enough to play for Chile during the international break. He looks slow compared to his former self, both physically and mentally. He can be way better than what he showed so far at Bayern.
What are we missing? A quick and intelligent ballwinner protecting the defense. Alonso is past it. It's that simple. He can offer a lot in possession, but he's such a huge liability against quick attackers, it's just not worth it. At the moment it feels like we're trying to get through with the established players instead of building something new and great. And it sucks, because at the beginning of last season, it looked the exact opposite. I'd love to see Kimmich as a regular starter instead of Alonso, no matter the game. Maybe move Alaba back to his box to box role in midfield, where he played at the beginning of last season when we were at our best so far under Guardiola. Give Bernat an extended run at leftback, even though he's struggling a bit at the moment. He was quality for the majority of last season after all.
It took a MOTM performance from Arsenal's goalkeeper for them to win the match, that tells you a lot.
On another day Bayern would of won comfortably, if they had scored then Arsenal would have been more adventurous and Bayern would have picked them apart.
On another day Bayern would of won comfortably, if they had scored then Arsenal would have been more adventurous and Bayern would have picked them apart.
We would need healthy CBs for that. Benatia is coming back soon, isn't he? I'm a bit worried about Bernat's current form to be honest. He doesn't look confident at all.
These arguments are the single most ridiculous and stupid ones possible.
Don't think that's true. In the first half of Pep's first season at Bayern, Martinez mostly played in midfield. Only once Pep started to experiment with a back three, Martinez moved into a CB role. It's not like Pep tried to turn him into a regular old centerback anyway. His best game under Pep was the cup final against Dortmund with Martinez in the middle of a back three in a libero-ish role and he was absolutely fantastic, man of the match. It was the final game of the 13/14 season. 30 minutes into the first game of the next season he blew his knee out and missed the whole year (I think he was twice subbed in in the final games of the year). Since that knee injury in August 2014 he played less than 10 games, only once over 90 minutes.
Yeah, I agree. Arsenal defended better and created more dangerous chances. It was a good win for you, congrats.
Personally I dont see why Rode hasnt been handed that role full time. Kinda like how Van Gaal is taking forever to make the obvious choice of Schneiderlin becoming a permanent fixture in holding midfield for United.
Let him play into form. But yes, we need a healthy centerback. I'm just tired talking about injuries all the time. If Alaba in midfield is a solution, let's play Rafinha at centerback and deal with it. We need to stop shifting players around and find a well working unit, so that if injured players return they just replace a weak link and everyone else stays the same. If we drop a few points on the way, we'll survive.
I actually like Alaba in that centerback role, but we need to give him a fixed role at one point. One he's happy with and one that gets the best out of him.
Good call. I'd love to see him get regular playing time for an extended period of time.
When last have I seen Ribery on a football pitch? What injury does he have?
Arsenal did United of old yesterday. Sit back and wait for your chance. Good win and deserved one.
He hasn't played since March. He has a very strange ankle injury, which supposedly was just a knock at first. No one really knew what it was for quite some time and it caused the fall out with our medical staff last season. Now it's supposedly a chronic inflamation of the bone in his ankle which caused him too much pain to play or train. It seems to be better and he's expected to start training with the team soon, but I have doubts that we'll ever see him play well again. He had so many issues that tend to cause longterm problems over the last 20 months. I'd be very happy if he can come back and give us two more seasons as an impact substitute, I don't expect him to be a regular starter for us anymore.
But I hope so much, that I'm totally wrong.
Why wasn't emil højbjerg considered for the mix?
Not really, they may have dominated possession but Arsenal were far and away the most effective team in the ball and created the better chances, you could say Bayern were fortunate it was only Walcott on the end of those chances or it could've been much worse.
Fair play Balu. You've got some team there, although I have to say your points about the midfield, and in particular, Alonso, are spot on. He defines sterile possession for me.
We have three quality midfield talents in Gaudino, Hojbjerg and now Kimmich. I rate Kimmich the most and he's the most mature of the three. Gaudino is the youngest one, probably the biggest talent and it made sense to keep him and let him play in the 2nd team while training with the first team. So we let Hojbjerg go out on loan.
It's all part of the midfield problem. We're caught inbetween young talents, we should maybe trust even though it's a risk, established players with questionmarks if they can still perform at their peak level (Alonso past it, Vidal never the same since his knee injury) and quality players struggling with injuries (Thiago, Martinez; Alaba also had 2 long injury breaks last season).
Like I said, if we can turn quantity in a healthy, well working midfield set-up, we'll be fine. But we're nowhere near that at the moment. It' obviously a massive first world problem, it's still quality in comparison to what all but 4-5 teams in the world can field. But it's certainly the difference between being one of the better sides in Europe that can win it all on a good day and the claims that we're favourites for the CL and can walk over a very good side like Arsenal.
Our results in the league are also a bit deceiving. Our away form has been dodgy over the last 2 years, but so far all our away games in the league have been against smaller teams, while we played the top teams at home (Wolfsburg, Leverkusen and Dortmund). It would have been a lot better for us if we had a few difficult away games at the beginning. As much as I enjoy the beautiful football we play almost every week in the league, a schedule that forces us to fight a lot more for the league would have been great. We got the exact opposite, it's the perfect schedule for us to dominate the league from day 1.
How could it have been a rout for Bayern on another day? They hardly created any clear cut openings and we had the better chances if anything. It was a close match but Bayern got caught after a GK mistake.
Bayern have nothing to worry about, they still have key players to return from injury and one loss doesn't really mean anything. They will still walk their league and get very far in the CL as well.
Cech played very well but Arsenal weren't lucky.
They deserved to win. I thought Bayern played similarly to how they did the last time we faced them at Old Trafford under Moyes, they had all the possession and it was pretty toothless.
They deserved to win. I thought Bayern played similarly to how they did the last time we faced them at Old Trafford under Moyes, they had all the possession and it was pretty toothless.
Cheers Balu. First time seeing Bayern this season, and seeing a Pep team live, it was great.
Main thoughts on you guys;
- Wow. Never seen a team dominate possession like that, or push Arsenal so high up the pitch. There were two 15 minute spells at the start of each half where we couldn't get the ball, and Boateng was your deepest player, still about 10 metres in front of the half way line. It was crazy, and it's so easy to see how you win 95% of your games. Total dominance.
- But you couldn't keep up your pressure on the ball/ energy at blocking off any and all passing lanes. I don't know if it was a fitness issue, or if it's just impossible to keep going at that level for an entire game. Alonso and Vidal were poor in stopping Ozil and Sanchez when we countered, and if Theo's final ball had been better we would have scored in the first half.
- Costa's a ludicrously good dribbler. He was another who seemed to tire in the second half, but before then he seemed capable of beating our defence every time he ran at us. Don't see how you can drop him, but can you play him, Robben, Lewandowski and Muller in the same side? That front four would be ridiculous, but probably imbalanced for a Pep side.
Apart from Costa they seem to lack a bit of pace up front which would be a worry
Well l think his point was: If Lewandowski scored his chance where he was alone against Cech, the game would have been different because Arsenal couldn't sit back that deep anymore (parking the bus) because they needed to score and those are the moments where Bayern usually starts to destroy their oppositions.
However, fair play to Arsenal. Deserved win and really well played. I still fecking hate to play against Cech, still a massive GK.
I think Coman and Robben will be fit for the return leg.
It might sound a bit crazy to you, but I don't think it was anything special yesterday. We weren't as fluid as we are at our best, we didn't pass with purpose, it was all a bit tame and therefore nowhere near as exciting as we are at our best. But maybe I'm just spoilt seeing it every week. Credit to Arsenal though, the defensive shape was excellent and all players defended disciplined till the end. It hurt us a lot more than when teams try to press us. We can handle pressing and usually find openings in behind the teams. Wenger got his tactics spot on, even though he gave us quite a bit time on the ball.
Yeah, the 2nd half was unusual poor from us. I don't think it was a fitness issue, or at least it shouldn't be. Difficult to say. I'm really curious how we react in the return leg in 2 weeks.
I hope we'll find out. It should be possible. It would be a shame if Pep can't find a way to include all four.
I know people say possession is bullshit but you have to admire how a team can just stop arguably the best team in England on the ball from having the ball. It was ridiculous at times. For large periods of the game Sanchez was playing as a LB cause Minreal was tucked in so much.
Others might disagree but I would like us to reach the level where we can dominate top teams like that away from home. Even though they lost, they are on a different level to any team from England on the ball. I remember them passing Man city off the park at Etihad whilst being a man down, a couple of years ago.
Imo, he's the only manager for us. We'd win 80% of games in this country with quicker, more skillful attackers and that level of control.
Others might disagree but I would like us to reach the level where we can dominate top teams like that away from home. Even though they lost, they are on a different level to any team from England on the ball. I remember them passing Man city off the park at Etihad whilst being a man down, a couple of years ago.
Imo, he's the only manager for us. We'd win 80% of games in this country with quicker, more skillful attackers and that level of control.
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Bayern on English turf just doesn't seem to work for them. I'm pretty sure we will see a better performance from them at home though, especially if Robben is fit again.
Both Robben and Costa playing will do wonders for their attack.
I was hoping Bernat would maybe take a step forward after his astonishingly solid and consistent first season. So far it seems to me he's taken a step back. Not sure if he's fully fit yet, but he didn't offer much so far this season. I assume though he's only starting because Martinez isn't fit and our other CBs injured.
I love our possession game. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having the ball 70% and winning game after game
In fact it's great.
There's nothing wrong with going to the Emirates or Camp Nou and dominate possession either, and like Pep I think it's something to be proud of. Even if it's also obvious we can't expect to win such games by default.
However, I'm a bit frustrated with what I perceive to be a certain timidity in Pep's CL away games approach. Our CL away record, and performances, has not been very good, and I think maybe it's because Pep is reigning the team in too much.
I understand he's out for control, and that's fine. But there's a fine line between dominant control and sedating ourselves. We had complete control for the first 25 minutes of each half, but we slowed ourselves down to a point where we can't switch gears anymore and we couldn't match Arsenal's growing intensity.
That's annoying to watch, because Arsenal started to commit more people to attacks, but when we stopped their counters we immediately slowed the game down instead of going for the kill with the space open. I get that this is to avoid an end to end open game, but we can always do that AFTER we've scored. Don't fecking slow the tempo down to almost a halt before we score. What are we afraid of? Why should we fear Arsenal as much as Pep proclaims before the games?
I think this is a constant with Pep that he's actually pretty 'defensive' in CL away games. By that obviously I don't mean he's giving up our possession game and high line to sit back or something, but he tends to use ball possession defensively, to keep the opponent from attacking, while the team seems to be more disencouraged to take risks and make the game fast than at home.
I don't think that's necessary with our team, and I think it's sometimes reaching a degree where it becomes counterproductive, .. literally.
I love our possession game. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having the ball 70% and winning game after game
In fact it's great.
There's nothing wrong with going to the Emirates or Camp Nou and dominate possession either, and like Pep I think it's something to be proud of. Even if it's also obvious we can't expect to win such games by default.
However, I'm a bit frustrated with what I perceive to be a certain timidity in Pep's CL away games approach. Our CL away record, and performances, has not been very good, and I think maybe it's because Pep is reigning the team in too much.
I understand he's out for control, and that's fine. But there's a fine line between dominant control and sedating ourselves. We had complete control for the first 25 minutes of each half, but we slowed ourselves down to a point where we can't switch gears anymore and we couldn't match Arsenal's growing intensity.
That's annoying to watch, because Arsenal started to commit more people to attacks, but when we stopped their counters we immediately slowed the game down instead of going for the kill with the space open. I get that this is to avoid an end to end open game, but we can always do that AFTER we've scored. Don't fecking slow the tempo down to almost a halt before we score. What are we afraid of? Why should we fear Arsenal as much as Pep proclaims before the games?
I think this is a constant with Pep that he's actually pretty 'defensive' in CL away games. By that obviously I don't mean he's giving up our possession game and high line to sit back or something, but he tends to use ball possession defensively, to keep the opponent from attacking, while the team seems to be more disencouraged to take risks and make the game fast than at home.
I don't think that's necessary with our team, and I think it's sometimes reaching a degree where it becomes counterproductive, .. literally
.True but a lot of things come down to ifs and buts, overall I think we had the better chances whereas Bayern were the team in control if that makes sense. I do agree that if we Bayern had taken the lead we were out of it, your ball retention skills reminded me of when Barca came down a few years back. Sickening that you have Alonso + Thiago in the middle, I'd kill to have one CM like that in our team! We were never going to control the game so had to play on the counter, a good thing that we looked prepared for that.
Early days when it comes to Cech but apart from one game the guy has been spot on for us. Since I can remember we've always had top keepers at this club but last few years has been a joke. Cech is up there though, always switched on
Counter jinx?
Barca is behind only due to CL curse. When your front 3 are all fit and in form it's irrelevant how the opponents play.
Our front 3 is better than any team's attack, that part is well established. But I know we are facing a massive challenge this season due to injuries, and it doesn't look like getting over anytime soon. From GK, defence, midfield and also in attack we have mutiple long term injuries. And being a lean squad that puts even more pressure on rest of the people. We still can't play Vidal or Turan yet. I am realistic this season, if we even win a single cup this season it will be massive.