Quique Flores on Premier League struggles in Europe.

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(...) the Watford manager spoke on his adaptation to the league and it's struggles in the last years on european competition.

"The game in Spain is undoubtedly more tactical, paused, and infinitely more strategic and planned than in England. In England the strategies are simple, the game is more rudimentary, wild. The speed and phyiscality seems higher, because the game is too open. The teams are constantly exposed and have huge holes to be explored, so there isn't any pause, there are spaces everywhere.

And that's the point, when the game asks for more intelligence, planning and ball circulation in the international stage, the English teams lack the habit of doing so in their domestic league. They struggle to get out of that comfort zone. The most valued players usually are strong and physical, and the midfielders usually are praised for their defensive efforts and lungs."


I think that is really interesting. I always said this here, when you play a certain type of game day in and day out in your domestic league, its hard to adjust to a completely different one in Europe. That goes against the grain of "teams have to play tougher teams in England, so they have a lot of wear-and-tear accumulated and struggle in Europe" opinion.

http://www.editoragrandearea.com.br/opiniao/2016/3/18/o-que-faz-de-um-campeonato-o-melhor (sorry, the article is in portuguese)
 
Excellent words there by Quique Flores. Bang on the money. Surprising though as his side is the epitome of the EPL at the moment.. he's adapted very well to the needs of the League with the way his side plays and the players it has.
 
The most valued players usually are strong and physical, and the midfielders usually are praised for their defensive efforts and lungs.
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Yea, Hazard and Silva, Mata couple of years ago, all athletic monsters doing double shifts in defensive duties.

Probably can throw in Yaya too, he's been most praised by his goal scoring abilities when he scored what, 20 goals in a season? And he's played more up top than b2b role that season iirc.
 
*restrains self from making quip about how all that better tactics and strategy amounted to the sum of feck all apart from moral victories in the EL*

Good observation by Mr Flores.
 
Does English clubs really struggle that much? Spain seems to be the only outstanding nation, while neither Germany or Italy is doing much better in Europe.
 
He's mostly spot on. Not sure about the "most valued players" bit, but his observation about the difference between the tactical side appears accurate.
 
Kostur said:
Yea, Hazard and Silva, Mata couple of years ago, all athletic monsters doing double shifts in defensive duties.

Probably can throw in Yaya too, he's been most praised by his goal scoring abilities when he scored what, 20 goals in a season? And he's played more up top than b2b role that season iirc.
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Well, if you keep track of the Mata thread a lot of people say he lacks defensive work rate and that hurts the team, you could also see how they praised his game vs City and his defensive duties when that would be the last thing to expect from him. Those players are widely regarded when their teams do well but they're also the first to blame when something goes wrong. Here in Spain they would've more leeway
 
Lurpak99 said:
Does English clubs really struggle that much? Spain seems to be the only outstanding nation, while neither Germany or Italy is doing much better in Europe.
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Obviously English clubs aren't going to struggle as much as Swedish clubs given the difference in the money at their disposal.
 
Lurpak99 said:
Does English clubs really struggle that much? Spain seems to be the only outstanding nation, while neither Germany or Italy is doing much better in Europe.
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They struggle considering the massive financial superiority.

A very similar thing is happening in Brazil in South American competition, but no one cares about that here :D
 
I think that's surely part of the reason but on the other hand you could argue that one of the many European coaches from the mainland should have been able to exploit that fact and do well over the odds. You would also think that with so few English managers around the PL teams would slowly change toward a style that is more like that on the mainland.

The main reason why this imo is not happening is because of the physicality that is allowed in the PL. The viewers like to see players get wrestled off the ball or tacklings that take out the opponent as well as the ball because after all it's "a man's sport" and contact should be allowed. In Europe than again we have mainly refs who are much more strict than those in England and all of a sudden the physicality of the players that was an advantage in England is nullified and those teams that are tactically and technically on a higher level triumph.

Yet the weirdest part is that not too long ago this physical, fast paced football was pretty dominant in Europe with the PL dominating the CL at will. Yet now this style seems to be without much effect so something must have happened in this time. While I think Flores is certainly making some good observations there also seem to be other reasons for the decline of the PL in international competitions than just being tactically inferior to the Spanish and German leagues.
 
Lurpak99 said:
Does English clubs really struggle that much? Spain seems to be the only outstanding nation, while neither Germany or Italy is doing much better in Europe.
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Both should be doing much worse than the PL though. Given that the PL teams make way more money than those two leagues. Given the money in the PL they should be head and shoulders above anyone else imo.
 
Ishdalar said:
Well, if you keep track of the Mata thread a lot of people say he lacks defensive work rate and that hurts the team, you could also see how they praised his game vs City and his defensive duties when that would be the last thing to expect from him. Those players are widely regarded when their teams do well but they're also the first to blame when something goes wrong. Here in Spain they would've more leeway
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Mata's always been a hardworker in my book, mind you, I'm merely pointing out that this part of Flores' lovely talk sounds like a bullshit to me. Sure, everybody loves a hardtackler but that's happening everywhere I believe. It's not like just good readers of the game a la Busquets get the recognition in Spain since Krychowiak was regarded as one of the best CDMs in La Liga last season for Sevilla and he perfectly fits the hard-tackling-much-running-athletic-midfielder bill.
 
While I agree with his observations to an extent - they are a tad simplistic. This is also nothing new - we have been saying this for the last 20 years. No one can deny continental football is more tactical the question is why is the EPL the way it is?

How many British managers now manage in the league - how many squads are filled with a core of british footballers? If continental football is so much more successful surely it would make sense for a manager to come over and just convert and buy a team to that extent? Let's see what pep does.
 
Can't you also say that the best XI's are on the mainland (Real, Barca, Bayern, Juventus, Atletico, Dortmund, PSG), therefore English clubs simply cannot compete with them in the CL because of quality differences? And that the English clubs in the EL do not take it seiously enough, therefore they get knocked out by the Sevilla's and Benfica's? Basically: CL clubs on the mainland have better players and English clubs in the EL do not strive to win it = underwhelming performances both in the CL and EL.
 
rpitchfo said:
While I agree with his observations to an extent - they are a tad simplistic. This is also nothing new - we have been saying this for the last 20 years. No one can deny continental football is more tactical the question is why is the EPL the way it is?

How many British managers now manage in the league - how many squads are filled with a core of british footballers? If continental football is so much more successful surely it would make sense for a manager to come over and just convert and buy a team to that extent? Let's see what pep does.
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And exactly this, didn't want to double post but at the moment there are how many British managers in the EPL? Bog Sam, Pardiola, Howe, some guy from Norwich, Sparky and Pulis? The teams that played in CL are all managed by foreigners, Wenger, LVG, Pellegrini and Mou/Hiddink.

In Europa it's been who, Bilić for WHU, Koeman for SOTON, LVG for us, Brenda/Klopp for Pool, Poch for Tottenham.
 
VorZakone said:
Can't you also say that the best XI's are on the mainland (Real, Barca, Bayern, Juventus, Atletico, Dortmund, PSG), therefore English clubs simply cannot compete with them in the CL because of quality differences? And that the English clubs in the EL do not take it seiously enough, therefore they get knocked out by the Sevilla's and Benfica's? Basically: CL clubs on the mainland have better players and English clubs in the EL do not strive to win it = underwhelming performances both in the CL and EL.
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That is hiding the dirt under the rug.
 
rpitchfo said:
While I agree with his observations to an extent - they are a tad simplistic. This is also nothing new - we have been saying this for the last 20 years. No one can deny continental football is more tactical the question is why is the EPL the way it is?

How many British managers now manage in the league - how many squads are filled with a core of british footballers? If continental football is so much more successful surely it would make sense for a manager to come over and just convert and buy a team to that extent? Let's see what pep does.
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I obviously exaggerate but the intelligent players stay on the continent, the foreign managers are mainly working with workhorses and can't really do miracles.

There is reason why players like Cazorla, Herrera, Azpilicueta, Silva or Mata aren't playing for Barcelona and Real Madrid.
 
Not so long ago UEFA had to activate cheat codes to prevent a second straight United-Chelsea champions league final.
 
As others have pointed out, it's not as simple as that.

English top teams lack sheer quality in key positions compared to the very best in Europe - at the moment. That's a much bigger problem than tactics. And it could easily change before too long, with the influx of both top shelf managers and even more money. Unless teams like Arsenal, Liverpool, United and Chelsea somehow focused considerably less on physicality and inefficient tactics a few years ago, this explanation is simply illogical.

The obvious difference between those teams and their current counterparts is that they were easily better, man for man, in terms of the pure quality of the players.
 
Kostur said:
Mata's always been a hardworker in my book, mind you, I'm merely pointing out that this part of Flores' lovely talk sounds like a bullshit to me. Sure, everybody loves a hardtackler but that's happening everywhere I believe. It's not like just good readers of the game a la Busquets get the recognition in Spain since Krychowiak was regarded as one of the best CDMs in La Liga last season for Sevilla and he perfectly fits the hard-tackling-much-running-athletic-midfielder bill.
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Yeah but not everyone thinks like you that's why I'm pointing other opinions in those threads, even when Mata works his ass for 90 minutes someone would say "yeah but Fellaini could do that work better and he gives us other options attacking"

Krychowiak is well regarded here because he did one hell of a job last season in league and EL games, he's something special and I personally think he's an underrated player, half of the big teams in Europe should be going for him, he's just not a good tackling and running guy, for me he is THE GUY to do that, there's plenty of other players that do that kind of job while being 1/2 tiers inferior to him and get almost no recognition even from local fans.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Not so long ago UEFA had to activate cheat codes to prevent a second straight United-Chelsea champions league final.
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He is talking about the league as a all, the top clubs are different. Wenger, SAF and Mourinho are very continental and they selected players who were comparable to continental players.
 
Kostur said:
Yea, Hazard and Silva, Mata couple of years ago, all athletic monsters doing double shifts in defensive duties.

Probably can throw in Yaya too, he's been most praised by his goal scoring abilities when he scored what, 20 goals in a season? And he's played more up top than b2b role that season iirc.
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Scott Parker won FWA Player of the Year a few years back.

Obviously talented players are appreciated but there's also far too much credit given to 'blood and thunder' scrappers.
 
Ishdalar said:
Yeah but not everyone thinks like you that's why I'm pointing other opinions in those threads, even when Mata works his ass for 90 minutes someone would say "yeah but Fellaini could do that work better and he gives us other options attacking"

Krychowiak is well regarded here because he did one hell of a job last season in league and EL games, he's something special and I personally think he's an underrated player, half of the big teams in Europe should be going for him, he's just not a good tackling and running guy, for me he is THE GUY to do that, there's plenty of other players that do that kind of job while being 1/2 tiers inferior to him and get almost no recognition even from local fans.
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Fair and square that.

Rado_N said:
Scott Parker won FWA Player of the Year a few years back.

Obviously talented players are appreciated but there's also far too much credit given to 'blood and thunder' scrappers.
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Yea pretty boy winning it was pretty mental but I think it was more to do with being some kind of a poster boy, didn't his dad die the same year? (not that he's won it because of that, mind, but it suited the narrative) Funnily enough didn't he win it when England actually wasn't that bad in CL though?
 
NoLogo said:
Yet the weirdest part is that not too long ago this physical, fast paced football was pretty dominant in Europe with the PL dominating the CL at will.
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I'd argue that the English dominance in Europe fell together with an incredibly strong set of defenders in English teams that allowed that style to succeed. English teams did adapt a bit for Europe during that time, played less open in the CL than in the league. But the transition from the 'usual' style in the league to the counterattacking style in Europe wasn't that big. Now no English club has that sort of defense to build upon. If you can't sustain the pressure when sitting deep, there's no success in sitting deep.

And it was rather easy for English clubs to build these defenses because every club had a strong homegrown core of defenders with the likes of Ferdinand, Campbell, Cole, Terry, Carragher providing a great foundation. Compare it to what's the foundation in the English top clubs right now and the problem becomes pretty obvious, so English clubs need to find other solutions to adapt to the European game.
 
JPRouve said:
He is talking about the league as a all, the top clubs are different. Wenger, SAF and Mourinho are very continental and they selected players who were comparable to continental players.
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This seems like a weird time to register this remark by Flores as its not like the midtable is dominated by the Alladryces of England. Southampton, Liverpool, Everton and Swansea have all transitioned to foreign managers and more continental playing styles. Hell even West Ham and Crystal Palace are playing quality stuff with Bilic and Pardew.
 
Kostur said:
Yea pretty boy winning it was pretty mental but I think it was more to do with being some kind of a poster boy, didn't his dad die the same year? (not that he's won it because of that, mind, but it suited the narrative) Funnily enough didn't he win it when England actually wasn't that bad in CL though?
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No idea mate, but there's no doubt that technically crap players who 'get stuck in' are given too much credit in the English game.

@Wednesday at Stoke a person with that username has no place arguing against this notion :lol:
 
If these quotes are true it shows a complete lack of understanding of the Premier League from the man. Quite poor from him really.
 
There's some truth in that, but it's become an annoying cliche. You can just simply say other leagues have better and more experienced players.
 
Rado_N said:
No idea mate, but there's no doubt that technically crap players who 'get stuck in' are given too much credit in the English game.

@Wednesday at Stoke a person with that username has no place arguing against this notion :lol:
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We can't let one team define the entire league can we? Even they are transitioning into playing with some trickery with Bojan and Arnautovic featuring heavily in attacks, hardly brutes but if their home stadium feels like a norse castle in a thunderstorm, they might as well use the battering ram approach every now and then. I see them as a unique charm for the league. :lol:
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
This seems like a weird time to register this remark by Flores as its not like the midtable is dominated by the Alladryces of England. Southampton, Liverpool, Everton and Swansea have all transitioned to foreign managers and more continental playing styles. Hell even West Ham and Crystal Palace are playing quality stuff with Bilic and Pardew.
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The game isn't tactical though and that's the point that he is making. It's nice to watch, it's "quality stuff" but it's fairly naive and mainly based on playing fast and energetically.
 
Next season we should have 4 relegation places. Then in 17/18 relocate Getafe to Tunbridge Wells and see how they get on in the Prem.
 
Kostur said:
And exactly this, didn't want to double post but at the moment there are how many British managers in the EPL? Bog Sam, Pardiola, Howe, some guy from Norwich, Sparky and Pulis? The teams that played in CL are all managed by foreigners, Wenger, LVG, Pellegrini and Mou/Hiddink.

In Europa it's been who, Bilić for WHU, Koeman for SOTON, LVG for us, Brenda/Klopp for Pool, Poch for Tottenham.
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It's not really just about the managers or players. The way football is played and mentality of the supporters affect the teams on the pitch. I remember reading an article with Xabi Alonso some time ago where he said that in England, he just felt more of an urge to play the forward pass and got carried away with the excitement because of the crowd and the whole atmosphere of games. People talk about football in this country in terms of risky or defensive. We define attacking football as risky and gung ho whereas tactical positional play is automatically thought of as defensive and too cautious. Compare this to someone like Guardiola who insists on positional play as much as anyone on the planet and nobody would call him a defensive manager. Balancing that tactical and strategic approach while maintaining what makes the PL so loved everywhere however is almost an impossible task. People overseas pay for the PL in large part because of its chaos and almost innocent like nature.
 
For an alternative reading (from a manager who has won both leagues) I'd look at this quote.

"So I would look to a Spanish team - Barcelona, Real Madrid—I would look to a German team - Bayern Munich—and I would say I think they arrive in the key moment of the season in better conditions than other clubs." - Jose Mourinho.

There seems to be two schools of thought on this. One from people like Quique Flores who think that English teams are focussed on pace over skill (?)

And someone who has won both leagues suggesting it is because the other leagues are easier.

It's interesting hearing both sides though.
 
JPRouve said:
The game isn't tactical though and that's the point that he is making. It's nice to watch, it's "quality stuff" but it's fairly naive and mainly based on playing fast and energetically.
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You've hit the nail on the head.

Playing beautiful football and not having tactical nous can co-exist. Look at Arsenal whenever they play in the Champions League.
 
Arsene Wenger also seems to agree with Mourinho, suggesting the strength and money in the premier league has made the Prem more important and demanding.

"The Premier League is very demanding. Overall, the Premier League will be even stronger next season, that's for sure, again.

"Maybe the Premier League has become the Champions League for the English teams. That's what is happening.

"Every game is so difficult in the Premier League that we maybe suffer a bit in Europe. Some teams who play in the Europa League prioritise the Premier League."
 
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