Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

Adisa said:
Killing 50 people in a couple of minutes takes some doing.
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With some of the weapons, and their capacities, that are legal in the US it actually doesn't, certainly not somewhere like a crowded nightclub.

Even a simple measure like banning high capacity magazines would have a dramatic impact.

In Ireland the maximum capacity gun you can buy is 10 rounds - at least that gives people some chance to run.

Most US states have avoiding restriction of even high capacity magazines.. presumably you need to pump 50 rounds into these pesky intruders.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Absolutely, and I have said repeatedly that someone can basically have a hissy fit on Saturday, and get a AR-15 to act out with on Tuesday is wrong on so many levels.
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This brings up an interesting thing that I was actually pondering yesterday with all the violence at the Euros...

How is it that America has such a high violent crime rate, etc. but things like what's happening at the Euros are really rare?
 
Eyepopper said:
With some of the weapons, and their capacities, that are legal in the US it actually doesn't, certainly not somewhere like a crowded nightclub.

Even a simple measure like banning high capacity magazines would have a dramatic impact.

In Ireland the maximum capacity gun you can buy is 10 rounds - at least that gives people some chance to run.

Most US states have avoiding restriction of even high capacity magazines.. presumably you need to pump 50 rounds into these pesky intruders.
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Many states do have high capacity magazine bans.
 
Eyepopper said:
presumably you need to pump 50 rounds into these pesky intruders.
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With another 53 in hospital how many rounds do you reckon he fired? Obviously some people were shot multiple times, and is it conceivable the ones killed were all one shot kills? Very doubtful I should think.
 
Carolina Red said:
This brings up an interesting thing that I was actually pondering yesterday with all the violence at the Euros...

How is it that America has such a high violent crime rate, etc. but things like what's happening at the Euros are really rare?
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I guess you guys dont have a culture for hooliganism like we sadly do over here. Also you dont get that many sporting occasions with a bunch of supporters from nations that really dont like each other piss drunk together for a massive event like this.

One could turn the argument around as well, would the guns have come out i the US in such an event?
 
rcoobc said:
It's interesting that we - redcafe - has gone from refusing to talk anything but the incident in these threads, out of respect, we've all just given up on that.

It's so common now.
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Fundamentally this is a forum. While I appreciate the perceived nobleness of your sentiment of observing silent respect it seems opposed to the very concept of a forum.
 
SwansonsTache said:
I guess you guys dont have a culture for hooliganism like we sadly do over here. Also you dont get that many sporting occasions with a bunch of supporters from nations that really dont like each other piss drunk together for a massive event like this.

One could turn the argument around as well, would the guns have come out i the US in such an event?
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We're hosting the Copa America right now. We've hosted a World Cup. We've hosted Olympics (granted there was the pipe bomb at the Atlanta Olympics).
 
FortBoyard said:
Fundamentally this is a forum. While I appreciate the perceived nobleness of your sentiment of observing silent respect it seems opposed to the very concept of a forum.
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Not really. The whole idea of a forum is everything is compartmentalised. We have at least 4 separate sub forums and rules governing each.

What's fundamentally changed is the feeling of inevitability. The night club shooting happened. There is no point in discussing it.
 
langster said:
With another 53 in hospital how many rounds do you reckon he fired? Obviously some people were shot multiple times, and is it conceivable the ones killed were all one shot kills? Very doubtful I should think.
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Would depend on how crowded the area and what type of round he was firing. If he was using full metal jacket, and it was really crowded, the rounds most likely passed through a person and into another.
 
Carolina Red said:
How is it that America has such a high violent crime rate, etc. but things like what's happening at the Euros are really rare?
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Quite simply, you guys don't travel as much and only a fraction of your population have a passport, so your fighting is more in house so to speak. Also, you lot drink piss like Budweiser, it's next to impossible to get drunk on that shit. Start importing Stella wifebeater and watch the fights ensue.
 
Carolina Red said:
Many states do have high capacity magazine bans.
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And many (as far as I know most) others have run like the wind from banning them. This in turn leads to a problem with availability, if they're legal in some parts the ability to obtain then where they aren't is obviously higher than if they were banned everywhere.

In my view there is literally no valid reason to own a high capacity magazine... well I suppose your home could be targeted by a marauding gang, in theory.

It'd be interesting to see whether there is any correlation between states where high capacity mags are legal and where these mass shootings take place, and how many who carried out mass shootings used them.
 
Carolina Red said:
We're hosting the Copa America right now. We've hosted a World Cup. We've hosted Olympics (granted there was the pipe bomb at the Atlanta Olympics).
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There is also the question about the efficency of the police forces. When the Euros was held in England, arguably the cradle of hooliganism, it was fairly uneventful and things like this didn't happen.

I dare wager that the American police would have been more effective than the French police have been in the instance. Like using a piece of cloth to seperate English and Russian supporters, a recipe for success if there ever was one.
 
Carolina Red said:
This brings up an interesting thing that I was actually pondering yesterday with all the violence at the Euros...

How is it that America has such a high violent crime rate, etc. but things like what's happening at the Euros are really rare?
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I think you're comparing apples and oranges here.

Carolina Red said:
We're hosting the Copa America right now. We've hosted a World Cup. We've hosted Olympics (granted there was the pipe bomb at the Atlanta Olympics).
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Most hooligans can't afford to come so far over here in drones like they can in another European country.
 
Eyepopper said:
And many (as far as I know most) others have run like the wind from banning them. This in turn leads to a problem with availability, if they're legal in some parts the ability to obtain then where they aren't is obviously higher than if they were banned everywhere.

In my view there is literally no valid reason to own a high capacity magazine... well I suppose your home could be targeted by a marauding gang, in theory.

It'd be interesting to see whether there is any correlation between states where high capacity mags are legal and where these mass shootings take place, and how many who carried out mass shootings used them.
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Not sure there would be much of a correlation. Surely people just cross the nearest state border to get them?
 
langster said:
With another 53 in hospital how many rounds do you reckon he fired? Obviously some people were shot multiple times, and is it conceivable the ones killed were all one shot kills? Very doubtful I should think.
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No idea, but I'd hazard a guess at hundreds. At least with limits on magazine size (and things like quick reloading mechanisms) you'd slow the fecker down.
 
Eyepopper said:
And many (as far as I know most) others have run like the wind from banning them. This in turn leads to a problem with availability, if they're legal in some parts the ability to obtain then where they aren't is obviously higher than if they were banned everywhere.

In my view there is literally no valid reason to own a high capacity magazine... well I suppose your home could be targeted by a marauding gang, in theory.

It'd be interesting to see whether there is any correlation between states where high capacity mags are legal and where these mass shootings take place, and how many who carried out mass shootings used them.
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The correlation would be very hard to pin down, because as you said, some states ban, some states don't. Magazines can travel across state lines.

The San Bernadino ISIS connected shooters were carrying hi-cap magazines in California, who has some of the most strict magazine laws in the country.
 
langster said:
Quite simply, you guys don't travel as much and only a fraction of your population have a passport, so your fighting is more in house so to speak. Also, you lot drink piss like Budweiser, it's next to impossible to get drunk on that shit. Start importing Stella wifebeater and watch the fights ensue.
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No, but that's what I mean.

You don't see these things at college football games, NFL games, etc.
 
SwansonsTache said:
There is also the question about the efficency of the police forces. When the Euros was held in England, arguably the cradle of hooliganism, it was fairly uneventful and things like this didn't happen.

I dare wager that the American police would have been more effective than the French police have been in the instance. Like using a piece of cloth to seperate English and Russian supporters, a recipe for success if there ever was one.
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This could be a major factor. American police do not play... see Ferguson, Missouri riots, for instance.
 
Carolina Red said:
The correlation would be very hard to pin down, because as you said, some states ban, some states don't. Magazines can travel across state lines.

The San Bernadino ISIS connected shooters were carrying hi-cap magazines in California, who has some of the most strict magazine laws in the country.
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So what reason is put forward for not banning them?

Considering when the 2nd amendment was written would you be in favour of limiting weapon capacity to what was available at that time?

In Ireland shotguns are limited to 3 shots, rifles to 10 - presumably that'd be enough to stop your intruder.
 
SwansonsTache said:
There is also the question about the efficency of the police forces. When the Euros was held in England, arguably the cradle of hooliganism, it was fairly uneventful and things like this didn't happen.

I dare wager that the American police would have been more effective than the French police have been in the instance. Like using a piece of cloth to seperate English and Russian supporters, a recipe for success if there ever was one.
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To be fair, the ultra England fans are particularly bad when they're aboard. Much tamer on home turf because in their deluded minds there are consequences here when there aren't there.
 
Carolina Red said:
No, but that's what I mean.

You don't see these things at college football games, NFL games, etc.
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I don't know about that, I've seen countless videos over the years of fans rioting after games your side of the pond.

It's not like this happens in the UK week in week out, you get a few scuffles but not like on the scale you're seeing at the Euro's.
 
Jippy said:
Not sure there would be much of a correlation. Surely people just cross the nearest state border to get them?
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Well it sure works that way with fireworks and cannabis, so I imagine the same mentality applies to military-grade guns.
 
Carolina Red said:
We're hosting the Copa America right now. We've hosted a World Cup. We've hosted Olympics (granted there was the pipe bomb at the Atlanta Olympics).
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That's not a very well thought through argument. No-one has been shot dead at the Euros; the situation at the Euros is actually a great argument against allowing members of the public to buy and walk around with guns. The worst that happened was bottles and chairs being thrown about, not a gun massacre.
 
SwansonsTache said:
This. We are all busy discussing the tools of the massacre, while the vile ideology that lies behind it is hardly touched upon since it is such a elephant in the room.
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:wenger:

You must be joking.
 
Carolina Red said:
This could be a major factor. American police do not play... see Ferguson, Missouri riots, for instance.
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There is also the fact that if you have a criminal record you will not be allowed to travel to the US, we don't have limitations like that in Europe.

Most of these hooligans will have something on their record, for sure.
 
Carolina Red said:
No, but that's what I mean.

You don't see these things at college football games, NFL games, etc.
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It's cultural / tribal & societal. You don't get that to the same extent with US sports.

Something similar happens with Gaelic sports in Ireland but the violence happens on the pitch.

There is never any trouble at rugby matches for example, most of the rugby crowd coming from a more middle class background than football.
 
Snowjoe said:
I don't know about that, I've seen countless videos over the years of fans rioting after games your side of the pond.

It's not like this happens in the UK week in week out, you get a few scuffles but not like on the scale you're seeing at the Euro's.
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I've seen riots when a team has won the Stanley Cup and that kinda thing, but not just one set of fans going HAM on another set of fans. Maybe I just missed seeing it... idk. The news filters out what they don't want us to see, right?
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
Apparently ISIS have claimed responsibility.
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Is the linkage really that strong? I mean was he just a nutter who watched a few extremist vids online and the claimed to be Isis or was he really a trained up sleeper? Am guessing the former, but Isis will happily take the credit either way.
 
Dobba said:
"Religion - Shit it!"
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There was a preacher at a Ted Cruz talk thing(Yes some people went to see Ted Cruz talk) who was more less saying the same stuff and the odd(and evil) connection between this Muslim preacher and the Christian preacher was that they both though they where helping homosexual by killing them, really disturbing.
 
Eyepopper said:
So what reason is put forward for not banning them?

Considering when the 2nd amendment was written would you be in favour of limiting weapon capacity to what was available at that time?

In Ireland shotguns are limited to 3 shots, rifles to 10 - presumably that'd be enough to stop your intruder.
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Anything above 20 or 30 rounds is silly, and quite frankly, very unreliable when used.

I would say 15 rounds would be a limit that you could get a majority to agree on.
 
skidmark said:
That's not a very well thought through argument. No-one has been shot dead at the Euros; the situation at the Euros is actually a great argument against allowing members of the public to buy and walk around with guns. The worst that happened was bottles and chairs being thrown about, not a gun massacre.
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Yeah, we can only imagine if both sets of fans had guns handy.
 
skidmark said:
That's not a very well thought through argument. No-one has been shot dead at the Euros; the situation at the Euros is actually a great argument against allowing members of the public to buy and walk around with guns. The worst that happened was bottles and chairs being thrown about, not a gun massacre.
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But aside from an isolated terror attack at the Atlanta Olympics, we've not really ever had big fights at all at these big events, much less shootings. At least not to my knowledge.
 
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