Although if you try and take the assault rifles away I imagine you would get shootings on an unprecedented scale from good old american patriots.
I just cant see a way to square the circle
Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando
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Although if you try and take the assault rifles away I imagine you would get shootings on an unprecedented scale from good old american patriots.
I just cant see a way to square the circle
Seems like gun control, homophobia and extreme religious fundamentalism are among several factors that played into the shooting. I wonder why people feel the need to downplay some of those factors just to highlight others?
I mean saying it has nothing to do with homophobia is just as ridiculous as saying it has nothing to do with religion. Yet people can't see that the logical flaws they're criticising in other people's arguments are present in their own. It's a bit strange.
I mean saying it has nothing to do with homophobia is just as ridiculous as saying it has nothing to do with religion. Yet people can't see that the logical flaws they're criticising in other people's arguments are present in their own. It's a bit strange.
What do you mean by homophobic? I understand it to be an irrational dislike of a group of people just because they are gay. Mainstream religions are not homophobic, but they mostly maintain that marriage is between a man and a woman for life and sex outside marriage is wrong. This by definition leads them to be against gay marriage and gay sexual relationships - it also leads them to be against heterosexual relationships outside marriage. Being against gay marriage isn't being homophobic, it's about the definition of marriage. People like the man you describe at your wife's office have a problem, they can hang it onto a religion if they want but there's no basis for that.
There are many people (both gay and straight) who have a Christian faith but don't always live the way their Church would like them to live, I'm one of them - I got divorced and then remarried. I accept that's not right in the eyes of my own Church and I acknowledge that it's at odds with their definition of marriage.
Let's not make this tragedy and the deaths of all these innocent people into something other than what it is - the actions of one violent and troubled man, who may or may not have thought he was acting in the name of his religion but clearly wasn't doing that at all, he was just full of hate.
you're right on here
“God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality,” Seddique Mateen said in Dari, speaking in a video posted to Facebook early Monday, per the Post’s translation. “This, is not for the servants” [of God]
There isn't one I don't think. It is a new era of terrorism for the US and I am not sure how long it will last.
A western gay club is the perfect target for an Islamic fundamentalist I would have thought.
No, but it sure helps.
Yes, almost all religions are homophobic. Luckily Christianity gets a lot of flak for it nowadays in western countries. They are getting ridiculed on a daily basis and that has an effect on their ideas. Today they are much more welcoming that 30 years ago. No reason to tip-toe around the problem, just because another religion is the cause. Part of Islamic dogma is a shitload of intolerant nonsense and the consequences of this are pretty obvious. Homophobia (and anti-semitism and various other intolerant ideas) aren´t just hold by extremists, but also by a significant part of the mainstream. American Muslims seem to be very well integrated, so it might not apply to them; it certainly does in Europe or the Arabic world. There is no reason to give them a pass.
Pointing out the obvious, while also opposing any kind of bigotry or racism against Muslims, doesn’t create more Islamophobia. Not doing it will give more ammunition to the far right, who will take advantage of this.
The guy was homophobic and it is very likely that his religious believes told him that homosexuals are evil. The availability of these kind of guns made the whole things possible.
I don't understand the urge by some to rush to ideology as the cause for this, when the situation fits within a pretty box that is socially acceptable to blame and castigate. Otherwise when the perpetrator is more mainstream, the incident is classified as being "isolated", code for "nothing jumps out of the screen, so let's file away and ignore".
It's a crying shame that he's been hamstrung so heavily, and an even bigger one that he has to leave office soon.
The US is going to miss this guy like crazy.
Helps in point scoring sure.
who had a M16? Basically only a collector with shit loads of money can buy one, costs a few thousand to the military but a lot for a civilian.
Always believed the news outlet hope for more terrorism and mass shootings and that's the reason they keep showing the murder's picture when several psycho docs said that's a big mistake.
Yeah, been posted several times already in this thread. So have many from White Christian Evangelicals who say exactly the same thing. Such as Pastor Kevin Swanson who says all gays should be shot dead and that Hurricane Sandy was sent from God because America allows Gay Marriage.
isnt an AR15 the civilian version of the M16... ie you can switch the M16 to full auto but not the AR15 (both will fire semi auto also)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AR-15
Sandyhook, San Bernadino and now the nightclub were undertaken with an AR15 I believe?
Yup, and there are countless websites that show you how to switch your Semi-Auto gun to Full Auto. It's a pretty simple technique, although if you hear the video of the Orlando shootings, you can hear that he was obviously doing pretty fine with just a Semi-Auto.
The argument is dead and buried though. If people wouldn't change their minds and still support the sale of assault weapons AFTER children got shot at Sandy Hook, then there truly is no hope. The vast majority of people are sensible enough to not want those on sale, but money and ignorance talks.
Yup, and there are countless websites that show you how to switch your Semi-Auto gun to Full Auto. It's a pretty simple technique, although if you hear the video of the Orlando shootings, you can hear that he was obviously doing pretty fine with just a Semi-Auto.
The argument is dead and buried though. If people wouldn't change their minds and still support the sale of assault weapons AFTER children got shot at Sandy Hook, then there truly is no hope. The vast majority of people are sensible enough to not want those on sale, but money and ignorance talks.
In fairness having fired a few guns i think as a lone gunman you would want semi auto anyway as you just burn ammo too quick in full auto and would have to reload clips every few seconds - so semi auto probably works best anyway.
Why anybody would need to have one of these at home is beyond me - that said I think 50 cal sniper rifles are available in the states as well - and again I cant possibly see why anybody would need one of those either
Yup, and there are countless websites that show you how to switch your Semi-Auto gun to Full Auto. It's a pretty simple technique, although if you hear the video of the Orlando shootings, you can hear that he was obviously doing pretty fine with just a Semi-Auto.
The argument is dead and buried though. If people wouldn't change their minds and still support the sale of assault weapons AFTER children got shot at Sandy Hook, then there truly is no hope. The vast majority of people are sensible enough to not want those on sale, but money and ignorance talks.
Agree that if Sandy Hook had no effect, I can't think what will.
About the rifle, I find the full-auto ban pointless. The military doesn't even use full-auto on their rifles as standard tactics. With any decent AR-15 version a person is wielding pretty much the same as most US and NATO infantrymen have. Its an absurd situation.
Yeah, controlled fire is Semi-Auto. Full-Auto is just for mad spraying you see in films or for drive by shootings, so I agree, the ban on full auto seems a little daft. I presume you would kill more with controlled shooting on semi than a mad spray on full auto because of the accuracy involved?
Sickening to think about this. When I saw the news report last night and heard the guy just firing round after round after round. It sent chills through me thinking each time I heard that sound, somebody died. Somebodies son or daughter or husband, each time somebody died! I can't imagine how traumatic it must have been to be in the club, and especially for the poor guy who sent those texts to his poor mother. The feeling of utter fear and helplessness. It's just impossible to imagine. Also, just thinking about what the club looked like at the end, doesn't really bear thinking about, and if any survivors had to make their way out through all the carnage. The same as Sandy Hook where it was all small children. It's all just so fecking horrible to think about.
It really makes me angry these weapons are on sale, and in Supermarkets, it makes me more angry people defend owning one or the right to buy one. If they would just stop and think about it the way I have done, i'm sure they would change their mind, unless they are that stupid and arrogant to think they would be like feckin Rambo and make a difference, which actually makes me ever more sad.
It's just all so tragic, and my heart goes out to all the families and friends and loved ones of those affected in any of these horrific and NEEDLESS acts.
Sickening to think about this. When I saw the news report last night and heard the guy just firing round after round after round. It sent chills through me thinking each time I heard that sound, somebody died. Somebodies son or daughter or husband, each time somebody died! I can't imagine how traumatic it must have been to be in the club, and especially for the poor guy who sent those texts to his poor mother. The feeling of utter fear and helplessness. It's just impossible to imagine. Also, just thinking about what the club looked like at the end, doesn't really bear thinking about, and if any survivors had to make their way out through all the carnage. The same as Sandy Hook where it was all small children. It's all just so fecking horrible to think about.
It really makes me angry these weapons are on sale, and in Supermarkets, it makes me more angry people defend owning one or the right to buy one. If they would just stop and think about it the way I have done, i'm sure they would change their mind, unless they are that stupid and arrogant to think they would be like feckin Rambo and make a difference, which actually makes me ever more sad.
It's just all so tragic, and my heart goes out to all the families and friends and loved ones of those affected in any of these horrific and NEEDLESS acts.
Did America finally overtake Australia for the title of Worst Mass Shooting in history?
I'd like to think that would make them think about change, but then, when Sandy Hook didn't, nothing ever will.
I'd like to think that would make them think about change, but then, when Sandy Hook didn't, nothing ever will.
It would help if religions/churches/religious people stopped talking about homosexuality at all, let alone label it a "sin" at every opportunity. The religious world is still enabling these loons. Every priest/Sunday School teacher/whatever who ever taught anyone that homosexuality is a sin is part of the problem.
We can all say that "oh it was just one lunatic with mental health problems" but that stance ignores the bigger picture, the deeper issue: that for a highly significant number of people it's still acceptable to threaten others with eternal damnation and torture in hell (these lovely, peaceful Abrahamic religions, eh) simply because of who they're attracted to. The two biggest religions' stance on homosexuality is shameful and outdated and promotes the kind of atmosphere in which these events are more likely to happen.
I was just watching a report on the news in which the response of the police was described in detail, and i have to wonder it has not been the source of more criticism (or maybe it has and i've misapprehend the matter). From the time they waited before moving in on the guy, to the idea that an explosive charge/bearcat armoured vehicle was the least conspicuous way of doing so. I had supposed that the Bataclan siege led to some shift in tactics, with an emphasis on haste rather than negotiation.
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You don't need the rest of your post!
Think that was the Nazi in Norway.
Ah, you might be right.
The guy rang the authorities and pledged his allegiance to ISIS.
Isn't that Breivik's shooting? He killed 69 with guns.
77 I think... (including 8 in the bomb)
I think the Bataclan in Paris was 130 (90 in the theatre) or something like that
Yeah. @DiseaseOfTheAge cleared it up for me there. Had forgotten about him. Port Arthur was the one I was thinking about.
Port Arthur, also known as "the US should have bloody learned from this". The Australians did the right thing there.
Yeah. I dunno why I didn't count the Paris attacks. I suppose because they were more co-ordinated terror attacks that they feel more like an act of war than a mass murder, which they obviously were. In my head they're grouped more with 9/11, London and Madrid Bombings etc.
In my opinion, there are a few issues here, in no order:
1) Islam's role in homophobia, not even ISIS, but 'normal' Islam.
2) The ability for a person on a watch list to buy a semi assault rifle, never mind a less powerful gun.
3) The targeting of the LGBT community.
4) The refusal of political groups to mention the above targeting of the LGBT community.
5) The refusal to acknowledge that even WITH gun control massacres by groups with hate can and have occurred.
6) That three hundred+ mass shootings a year makes it stupid to say that mass shootings is a problem with one particular group.
7) The absurdity of the Mass Media coverage which magnifies the role of the shooter, encouraging copy cat behavior.
I personally find that everyone is mentioning only some or not all of the above points which makes the others seem less relevant.
1) Islam's role in homophobia, not even ISIS, but 'normal' Islam.
2) The ability for a person on a watch list to buy a semi assault rifle, never mind a less powerful gun.
3) The targeting of the LGBT community.
4) The refusal of political groups to mention the above targeting of the LGBT community.
5) The refusal to acknowledge that even WITH gun control massacres by groups with hate can and have occurred.
6) That three hundred+ mass shootings a year makes it stupid to say that mass shootings is a problem with one particular group.
7) The absurdity of the Mass Media coverage which magnifies the role of the shooter, encouraging copy cat behavior.
I personally find that everyone is mentioning only some or not all of the above points which makes the others seem less relevant.
Probably depends on what is going on. Was he still shooting people in the club when they decided to move in? Did they have a way of contacting him? Going back to the Columbine Shooting the police there were taken to task for not immediately rushing in. Every situation is different of course.
EDIT: Here is one article I quickly found
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-police-20160612-snap-story.html
They did have some contact with him but this article does not indicate if he was still shooting people at that time or not.
I'm not saying religion isn't a factor because it must be but - and this plays into what @sullydnl said earlier - the man who did that failed stabbing in Leytonstone shouted something like "this is for Syria" when it was fairly clear that mental health was also a big factor in why he did what he did so I wouldn't say it's open and shut in this case quite yet either
In general, I've been wondering how many of these extremists who carry out attacks are mentally vulnerable people and whether there is anything that can be done in that area in terms of prevention.
Also... just mentioning that bloke in Leytonstone (currently my local area) just makes me shiver, thinking about the possibility that he could have had a gun. Crazy idiot causing a few non-life-threatening injuries would change into massacre quite easily.
If the man has explosives and hostages and you just send SWAT running in... That doesn't end well for the good guys.
I would be slow to judge those handling an incredibly intense situation that very few have ever actually experienced.
Read some absolute nonsense on here, but that's a cracking post. Top dibs.
Agreed, and these people are highly trained. Yet you still have people who reckon that the situation would be better if every Joe Soap in the club had a gun.
Yeah, I agree, ish. That WAS and HAS started to change because many Churches allow gay weddings, many now allow women Priests. Attitudes were and are changing on this all the time, it's not perfect but it's a damn lot better than it was 20 or 30 years ago. Yes there will always be a problem with right wing lunatics like the Evangelicals, and of course many Radical Muslims, but it doesn't help when there is an underlying problem and that is this was a mass shooting, the only difference between this and others is that this had a more specific target. Yet again we are back to guns.
Yes the homophobic aspect is HUGELY important, I wouldn't ever want to think otherwise, but the other problem is guns, and then religion, so you have three problems, how do you tackle them all?
Firstly, I look at the positives, and that would be, as I said, attitudes towards the LGBT community have changed massively, I would think the vast majority of people are now far more accepting and understanding than before, with education and acceptance, and the older generations dying off, this can only ever improve.
Religion. Well society needs to continue to shun their teachings and tell them they are wrong. Just look at this thread, a very religious poster, who is loved and extremely well respected on this site is @Penna, she is religious, but not homophobic as she has posted in this thread. Then there are many Muslim posters who have posted here, I know a few that post here and are 100% not homophobic either, so it's easy to see why THEY would get offended when people just blame Religion or blame Muslims, when it's clearly not as simple as that and not every religious person is the same, whatever faith they may be.
So again, with education and pressure and time, things will continue to change, but it won't happen overnight. Look at the recent bathroom laws passed in the states, it's easy to see progression there, and also see where there is resistance to the change, pressure needs to be applied to those resisting to show that their views are outdated and not tolerated in modern society. You can have a belief, but you also need tolerance and acceptance of others.
So where are we back to again? GUNS! See why the argument keeps coming back to this?
Guns is a relatively simple answer in the short term and something solid that can be banned, not just something is someone's head like a belief that needs to be changed. First do what you can to what you can touch and feel and that is ban the fecking things! Then you move to attitudes, more laws and further education and eventually things will change with guns too. As I said before, the will of the people is there, this is down to money and politics. It benefits lots of people to sell more guns. The NRA love situations and events like yesterday as more people will go out and buy more guns. The trouble is though, more guns really doesn't seem to be helping anyone does it? The only thing that is increasing is more mass shootings, more than one a day, more guns really doesn't seem to be reducing or stopping them at all. So let's try the alternative...........
As I said, I really don't want to seem flippant or dismissive of any of the other issues here, they are extremely important, but attitudes ARE on a whole changing, and it will take time, laws are helping and more education will too, and i'm really trying to try and put a positive look on things because without that, and without the will to try or people wanting to make a change, then the alternative doesn't really bear thinking about.