Scottish / Irish Independance

Oh it is a clustefeck alright but no way will NI be able to be part of the EU while still part of the UK.

Ireland really needed a generation of quiet and calm to let things settle down and this does the opposite.

How on earth are they going to police the border?
 
Wibble said:
Oh it is a clustefeck alright but no way will NI be able to be part of the EU while still part of the UK.

Ireland really needed a generation of quiet and calm to let things settle down and this does the opposite.

How on earth are they going to police the border?
Click to expand...
Its going to be impossible to have and not have a border without causing trouble among the communities up there, nationalists dont want borders and unionists dont want to be the border to the UK.
 
Bob Loblaw said:
Not something I really want to get into, but agree nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Are you from the North, mate?
I don't see a United Ireland vote just because I don't think enough unionists who voted remain would be swayed by the result to the point of joining us.

I'm also not sure I want a United Ireland
 
sullydnl said:
It certainly won't be like that. The border will basically be as free-flowing as they can possibly make it as it isn't in either side's interests to have it any other way.
Click to expand...

But that doesn't work from an immigration perspective. People could rock up from the EU, hang out in NI for a few years and claim UK residency on the basis that they've built a life there.
 
Things in NI need to happen slowly otherwise you would get Loyalist extremists raising their head

A United Ireland is inevitable..... it would only happen in the right political and economic climate

NI has over 40% public sector so its a large economic commitment
 
Bwuk said:
Living in Scotland all I'm hearing is outrage.

What annoys me is people can't accept we live in a democracy. The Scottish people voted against independence, and people still try to push for another Indyref.

Now in the wake of this, it's another huge push towards people wanting indyref2. We can't just say it's not fair because we didn't vote it, it was part of a UK wide vote which we chose to be a part of.

You can't demand a referendum everytime the vote goes against which you wanted.

This is coming from someone who was a remain voter. Sorry for any typos, my phones keyboard is being a bit dodgy!
Click to expand...

Well it's obviously clear that people wanted to stay as part of the UK on the basis that the UK was staying in Europe. People are right to call for another referendum, especially when it's odds on that it will be a huge majority in one favour.
 
christy87 said:
Its going to be impossible to have and not have a border without causing trouble among the communities up there, nationalists dont want borders and unionists dont want to be the border to the UK.
Click to expand...

Nightmare. Set to fail no matter what happens.
 
Ultimately the 2014 independence movement failed because those in the middle were not sufficiently convinced by the economic viability of independence. A view that has since consolidated by the collapse in the oil price. Now the majority view in Scotland is that leaving the EU is a bad thing both economically and in terms of the country's broad values that don't appear to be shared to the same extent further south. With the newly imposed economic uncertainty, the ground is fertile for a successful second referendum campaign within the term of this parliament which can learn from any of the stumbling blocks from 2014. While there will be a moving picture in the coming months, as soon as the polls express a settled view in favour of independence, the referendum will be set and it'll be hard to see any other outcome than a yes.
 
It won't be tomorrow but I think it will happen. As long as the Catholics can outbreed the Protestants as the numbers are close to even now I think.
 
utdalltheway said:
Why were/are you anti?
Click to expand...

Honestly...because I was happy with how things were. I'd admit myself I'm one of the most politically uninformed people around though - my reasons for being Anti-United Ireland were simply that we had a good thing going as it was.

Charlie Foley said:
Are you from the North, mate?
I don't see a United Ireland vote just because I don't think enough unionists who voted remain would be swayed by the result to the point of joining us.

I'm also not sure I want a United Ireland
Click to expand...

I am, yeah. I don't see a United Ireland vote either though, for the same reason you do.
 
Even in the very unlikely event that a vote is held, the North votes in favour of Irish unification, and Dublin accepts, not a chance it'll all go down without mass Unionist protests and very probably Loyalist violence with all of its obvious consequences.
 
Wibble said:
It won't be tomorrow but I think it will happen. As long as the Catholics can outbreed the Protestants as the numbers are close to even now I think.
Click to expand...
It won't happen.

Even discounting the whole clusterfeck that is Catholics vs Protestants and that a unified Ireland could end up setting us back over thirty years in terms of peace treaties and prosperity and calmness between the two nations, the fact is, ROI cannot afford to take in NI.

We're already incredibly reliant on Dublin to fund the rest of the country, which hasn't recovered nearly as well as our prosperous capital. We can't take in a country of 1.8m people who have a far lower GDP than us, whose economy is so reliant on service, and who already require huge EU and UK funding.

Bear in mind that I love the idea of a unified Ireland and I'm sure Sinn Fein and others who love it will blindly campaign for it for the next decade, a bit like Brexit, ignoring the implications and spouting bullshit, but it's just not sustainable for either state. It won't work.

NI is in a far tougher situation than Scotland because they're simply not remotely as wealthy nor do they have a financial hub like Edinburgh, or the infrastructure to go it alone. They need the UK.
 
Name Changed said:
Can't see it myself. We can't look after 26 counties, nevermind another 6. The unionists would go bananas.
Click to expand...

Economically it wouldnt work right now. And were it to happen tomorrow it would cause more trouble than its worth. But it will definitely happen eventually with the rate the nationalist/catholic community is growing.

Whether thats in our lifetime or even further into the future is another matter though.
 
Think alot of what is being said is very ignorant and political point scoring by those with clear agendas.

Not to mention over 1 million Scots voted to leave the EU and over 2 million want to stay with the UK.

In NI 340 thousand wanted to leave the EU also with more likely to want to stay in the UK.

At times of uncertainty the Union should stay together and it's important to note that millions of English people wanted to remain also but would be still be in favour of the Union.
 
TheReligion said:
Think alot of what is being said is very ignorant and political point scoring by those with clear agendas.

Not to mention over 1 million Scots voted to leave the EU and over 2 million want to stay with the UK.

In NI 340 thousand wanted to leave the EU also with more likely to want to stay in the UK.

At times of uncertainty the Union should stay together and it's important to note that millions of English people wanted to remain also but would be still be in favour of the Union.
Click to expand...
Scotland wanted to stay in the UK under the assumption that it would provide a place for them in the EU. The main reason they did not leave is because it would've left them outside the EU for a prolonged period of time.

With the UK no longer in the EU and thus Scotland's primary reason for being a part of the UK no longer being there, things have changed. You can't use Scotland's initial referendum as a basis here because the circumstances are wildly different now.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Scotland wanted to stay in the UK under the assumption that it would provide a place for them in the EU. The main reason they did not leave is because it would've left them outside the EU for a prolonged period of time.

With the UK no longer in the EU and thus Scotland's primary reason for being a part of the UK no longer being there, things have changed. You can't use Scotland's initial referendum as a basis here because the circumstances are wildly different now.
Click to expand...

We are going to find out if this is true in the near future.

I think it was one of the reasons but the main one was losing the pound and the money the UK gives it. Which post referendum proved the wisdom of remaining in the UK when you look at the finances.

The UK (not me ) wanted to leave the EU, as far as I am concerned the Scots knew there could be a referendum on EU membership and that could lead to a leave vote and those campaigning for independence at the time made that exact argument.
 
Massive Spanner said:
It won't happen.

Even discounting the whole clusterfeck that is Catholics vs Protestants and that a unified Ireland could end up setting us back over thirty years in terms of peace treaties and prosperity and calmness between the two nations, the fact is, ROI cannot afford to take in NI.

We're already incredibly reliant on Dublin to fund the rest of the country, which hasn't recovered nearly as well as our prosperous capital. We can't take in a country of 1.8m people who have a far lower GDP than us, whose economy is so reliant on service, and who already require huge EU and UK funding.

Bear in mind that I love the idea of a unified Ireland and I'm sure Sinn Fein and others who love it will blindly campaign for it for the next decade, a bit like Brexit, ignoring the implications and spouting bullshit, but it's just not sustainable for either state. It won't work.

NI is in a far tougher situation than Scotland because they're simply not remotely as wealthy nor do they have a financial hub like Edinburgh, or the infrastructure to go it alone. They need the UK.
Click to expand...

I'm not thinking it will happen soon but I have seen enough change in my 52 years that I can easily imagine that it will happen eventually. The UK leaving the EU may be the beginning of relative economic change North and South of the border that will eventually enable reunification.
 
Wibble said:
It won't be tomorrow but I think it will happen. As long as the Catholics can outbreed the Protestants as the numbers are close to even now I think.
Click to expand...

It might be a bit more complicated than that though:

http://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opi...h-change-in-who-we-think-we-are-29004537.html

Besides which, while the Irish parties are pretty much all nominally in favour of a United Ireland, it's only really Sinn Fein who are particularly eager for it atm. Fine Gael and Fianna Fail would just as soon leave things as is for the foreseeable future and outright dismissed the notion yesterday. Without the determined support of the Republic (and the Republic's political structure) a United Ireland is going nowhere fast.
 
Wibble said:
I'm not thinking it will happen soon but I have seen enough change in my 52 years that I can easily imagine that it will happen eventually. The UK leaving the EU may be the beginning of relative economic change North and South of the border that will eventually enable reunification.
Click to expand...
I think in order for it to happen then a ridiculous number of positive scenarios would need to fall into place, first. Or vice-versa, the North would need to get truly bollocked by the border control and whatever Brexit could bring.

Simply put, both ROI and NI would prefer to be separate states, both politically, financially and religiously, that's unlikely to change for a very, very long time.
 
You could be right but it is all so different from when I first started visiting Belfast and Derry in the early/mid 80's that I think further change is quite possible. I just wish I could get an Irish passport. Luckily my wife and son can.
 
Kopral Jono said:
Could the Denmark/Greenland/Faroe Islands situation be a solution here? As in Scotland and Northern Ireland remain part of the EU whilst England and Wales being the Greenland and Faroe Islands in this case respectively?

I really don't know. The whole thing just makes me sad.
Click to expand...
That's what want to know
 
It's all about NI though. If NI votes to leave in a border poll then the Republic would have to put the wheels in motion for it to happen.
Imagine being part of the government that help block a united Ireland. Morally they would have to try their best if that were to happen.
Instigate it? No, but if that was out of their hands they would have no choice.
 
cyberman said:
It's all about NI though. If NI votes to leave in a border poll then the Republic would have to put the wheels in motion for it to happen.
Imagine being part of the government that help block a united Ireland. Morally they would have to try their best if that were to happen.
Instigate it? No, but if that was out of their hands they would have no choice.
Click to expand...
I think you'd be surprised about how many in ROI would not be in favor of a united Ireland. Both the generations who have lived through the troubles, and the younger, well educated population who understand the implications it could have on our economy and relations between Catholics and Protestants. There seems to be a false idea outside of our country that Ireland have always been majorly in favour of being unified when that's simply not the case.

Let's not forget that the North have repeatedly chosen to remain in the UK due to the benefits it brings despite Catholics outnumbering politics there. I imagine ROI wouldn't just be happy to go along with them joining now purely because they no longer get those benefits.
 
Massive Spanner said:
I think you'd be surprised about how many in ROI would not be in favor of a united Ireland. Both the generations who have lived through the troubles, and the younger, well educated population who understand the implications it could have on our economy and relations between Catholics and Protestants. There seems to be a false idea outside of our country that Ireland have always been majorly in favour of being unified when that's simply not the case.
Click to expand...
I'm from Donegal!
 
Scotland very possible. NI is a fecking headache. As a proud Irishman I want a United Ireland but there are others who dont no matter what mess Britain is in.

Right now NI should aim for sole independence and to remain in the EU!
 
Massive Spanner said:
I think you'd be surprised about how many in ROI would not be in favor of a united Ireland. Both the generations who have lived through the troubles, and the younger, well educated population who understand the implications it could have on our economy and relations between Catholics and Protestants. There seems to be a false idea outside of our country that Ireland have always been majorly in favour of being unified when that's simply not the case.

Let's not forget that the North have repeatedly chosen to remain in the UK due to the benefits it brings despite Catholics outnumbering politics there. I imagine ROI wouldn't just be happy to go along with them joining now purely because they no longer get those benefits.
Click to expand...

I agree with what you say but the fact remains that a united Ireland would in the long term be financially stronger
 
Ramshock said:
Right now NI should aim for sole independence and to remain in the EU!
Click to expand...
NI have zero ability to survive as a sovereign state, I think that much is painfully obvious. Will the UK be willing to accept a nation so willingly that will require insane amounts of funding with none of the previous perks the UK used to bring? I'm not so sure.
 
Adisa said:
I was passionately telling my Scotish friends to stay in the Union last time out.
Now, I would be telling them to leave. England has shifted to the right again and we are dragging the rest of them down with us.
Click to expand...
I would second this, good post again.
 
Massive Spanner said:
Psch, Donegal doesn't count, you don't even have proper roads :D

Anyway I do believe that it's not as clear cut as it's being made out to be. I don't think right now that ROI would vote yes to it if we held a referendum.
Click to expand...
Im just hoping for a united Ireland so the government couldn't forget about us up here anymore!
Personally I think a large portion of the older generation would go for it and with Sinn Fein being the most popular party of the young generation the votes would be there.
If the finacial implications were at a minimum, if the north already voted for it and the option was there I don't see why Pat from Mayo or Davey from Galway would be steadfast against it.
If the south had to fight for it I would say no chance, It's clearly not worth it.
How would this even work? Would Ireland receive some sort of tax breaks or be able to call on some financial help to sooth the transition?
The Irish Americans would love this, I'm convinced there would be enough backing from the romantics over there to help this improbable scenario over the line. Is there anybody here who knows what could actually be done?
Surely it cant be the Irish government checking their pockets to see what we can afford?
 
cyberman said:
Im just hoping for a united Ireland so the government couldn't forget about us up here anymore!
Personally I think a large portion of the older generation would go for it and with Sinn Fein being the most popular party of the young generation the votes would be there.
If the finacial implications were at a minimum, if the north already voted for it and the option was there I don't see why Pat from Mayo or Davey from Galway would be steadfast against it.
If the south had to fight for it I would say no chance, It's clearly not worth it.
How would this even work? Would Ireland receive some sort of tax breaks or be able to call on some financial help to sooth the transition?
The Irish Americans would love this, I'm convinced there would be enough backing from the romantics over there to help this improbable scenario over the line. Is there anybody here who knows what could actually be done?
Surely it cant be the Irish government checking their pockets to see what we can afford?
Click to expand...
I certainly don't. My parents lived through those troubles, they absolutely hate the idea of a unified Ireland.

I also think the financial implications would win over. We're not long out of a horrid recession (which still affects many rural areas in the country), why would people vote yes to taking NI back when they realize just how much it could cost us financially both short and long term?
 
cyberman said:
It's all about NI though. If NI votes to leave in a border poll then the Republic would have to put the wheels in motion for it to happen.
Imagine being part of the government that help block a united Ireland. Morally they would have to try their best if that were to happen.
Instigate it? No, but if that was out of their hands they would have no choice.
Click to expand...
The government have no basis to stop a United Ireland.

If Northern Ireland want's to leave, the government will give it our blessing
 
cyberman said:
It's all about NI though. If NI votes to leave in a border poll then the Republic would have to put the wheels in motion for it to happen.
Imagine being part of the government that help block a united Ireland. Morally they would have to try their best if that were to happen.
Instigate it? No, but if that was out of their hands they would have no choice.
Click to expand...

There would definitely be a reluctance on the part of the Republic's political parties to actively oppose a United Ireland once the issue came to a head but any decision would have to be put to a referendum anyway. They would leave it to the people to decide, at which point there would definitely be a vocal (if non-party) opposition.

A lot of people in the Republic would be nominally in favour of a United Ireland but, much like the Scottish independence referendum, not to the degree that they'd automatically follow through. It's actually impossible to tell how such a vote would go as there are to many unknown factors.

Plus that's only if/when the referendum actually occurred. If NI votes to leave, the Republic's political leadership could possibly (and quite fairly in some ways) delay, hinder and even veto the move towards a United Ireland on security grounds. Again, there'd probably be less negative reaction to such a move than might be necessarily assumed, depending on the context.

In real terms the support of the Republic would definitely be needed for a United Ireland, regardless of how NI votes and that support is far from guaranteed.
 
Speaking as a centrist/left-leaning Unionist (nobody represents me in NI), it's a big deal here.

It seems that catholic/nationalist born people (community wise) are very much thinking they would change from 'stay in the union' to 'vote for United Ireland' as they fear for their future and careers. Quite rightly in my opinion.

I'm not sure I could vote for a United Ireland but it is a complete bollocks this result. I am getting an Irish passport asap though as many people are.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.