Has political correctness actually gone mad?

vi1lain said:
It's important to note that "white privilege" isn't only about economic status, money, wealth etc. - this is a dangerous concept that will only leave you feeling frustrated, especially if you aren't rich.
Privilege is a wide scope that covers a lot o
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vi1lain said:
It's important to note that "white privilege" isn't only about economic status, money, wealth etc. - this is a dangerous concept that will only leave you feeling frustrated, especially if you aren't rich.
Privilege is a wide scope that covers a lot of things, social environments, education etc.
Also depending on the context, white privilege isn't even a bad thing, it can be used to make changes that impact everybody. Instead the usual response is to feel attacked and get defensive. Similar principle for Black Lives Matter. Instead of asking the question why these things exist or what we can do to build bridges and open communication, we stay isolated and listen to propaganda from both sides.

To be able to say "i'm a white person who feels left behind" means that you begin to understand what minorities have been saying for decades, that the system is broken, politicians don't represent us, a change needs to be made etc.
The difference is when white people begin to feel left behind things change much quicker.
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Great post
 
Shinehead Dred said:
I cant agree that people should live in a world where all things aren't equal circumstancewise or any otherwise simply because that the way it is.
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That's not the world I want to live in either. I'm saying the left has been failing to some degree on the messaging and means of achieving a more equal world.

Shinehead Dred said:
Your comment:

A lot of white people feel poor and left behind... telling them they're 'privileged' is a sure fire way to piss them off and show that you don't understand their circumstances.

I think you could replace "white people" with black, Latino etc and this comment would still be correct.
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Exactly. If you said to a poor black person that they were 'privileged', they would rightly say you're an idiot. But we have been telling poor white people they are in some sense 'privileged' and they've now told us we are idiots.

I don't know if you've seen the documentary 'Making a Murderer'? It was quite effective in showing that poor white people suffer tremendous discrimination at the hands of the criminal justice system and broader society because they are poor (and 'white trash').

It's hard to make this point coherently, but I'll give it a go. If you imagine a scale from 0 to 100, where 0 is someone with no 'privilege' whatsoever, and 100 is someone like Donald Trump (rich, large inheritance, white, male, straight, elite etc). For arguments sake, let's say the average poor black man comes out at a 15 on this imaginary privilege scale... if an average poor white man comes out at a 25 on the scale, telling him he's 'privileged' is going to piss him off because there's a whole 75 points above him. He may have some more advantages in society compared to the poor black man, but he is still relatively unprivileged.

Shinehead Dred said:
So what does someone who falls into the "minorities" (god I hate this word) group do when they feel disenfranchised or left behind? How do they make their voices heard, or doesn't it matter because they aren't white and poor?
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They should do all the things they are doing: vote for the democrats, form protest groups and try to influence institutions to eliminate racial bias. What we as liberals shouldn't do is see the fight for greater racial equality as a reason to tell other disadvantaged groups (i.e. the poor white working class) that they are 'privileged' because of their race. It's a completely counterproductive and divisive message.

Shinehead Dred said:
What other elements contribute to "white privilege" other than wealth for you? I believe there are many other important factors at play, such as education, housing, opportunities for employment, social acceptance etc. The list is endless....
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Agree on all that. I'm not denying it's worse, on average, to be poor and black than it is to be poor and white, for all the reasons you state. But the poor have far more common grievances than differences, regardless of race. I can't be as eloquent as Obama, so I'll just point back to that passage of his speech I quoted above.
 
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vi1lain said:
It's important to note that "white privilege" isn't only about economic status, money, wealth etc. - this is a dangerous concept that will only leave you feeling frustrated, especially if you aren't rich.
Privilege is a wide scope that covers a lot of things, social environments, education etc.
Also depending on the context, white privilege isn't even a bad thing, it can be used to make changes that impact everybody. Instead the usual response is to feel attacked and get defensive. Similar principle for Black Lives Matter. Instead of asking the question why these things exist or what we can do to build bridges and open communication, we stay isolated and listen to propaganda from both sides.

To be able to say "i'm a white person who feels left behind" means that you begin to understand what minorities have been saying for decades, that the system is broken, politicians don't represent us, a change needs to be made etc.
The difference is when white people begin to feel left behind things change much quicker.
Click to expand...
What I'm trying to explain is why the inevitable response is to feel attacked and get defensive. If we are to get liberals elected - and achieve real change - we need to find a message and a tactic which gets poor whites and blacks on the same side, not seeing each other as a threat or gaining advantages at the other group's expense.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I've been reading some of Obama's speeches from 2008 - he delivered a brilliant speech on race at the National Constitution Center. It contained this passage which I think perfectly encapsulates the problem:



That's exactly it. Obama understood that dividing up the working class into blacks, whites, latinos and the rest is an extremely counterproductive thing for any liberal to be doing. It means you can't win elections from the left.

Worth reading the full transcript here: http://constitutioncenter.org/amoreperfectunion/
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Never heard/read that speech before. So on the money and gets right to the heart of the "whitelash" against the Democrats. Such a pity that it obviously didn't get heard by the people that needed to hear it.

Of course, the genuine grievances felt by working/middle class whites about their problems not being heard or not being taken as seriously as those of minorities are mixed in with a load of old school racism, homophobia and general dislike and fear of anyone who is different. When you have a growing population (native plus immigrants) competing for scarce resources then prejudice against the "other" is almost inevitable. Trump came to power on the back of all of the above, which makes it hard to feel much sympathy for the disenfranchised white working class, even if the liberal left is unfairly ignorant of their plight.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
That's not the world I want to live in either. I'm saying the left has been failing to some degree on the messaging and means of achieving a more equal world.


Exactly. If you said to a poor black person that they were 'privileged', they would rightly say you're an idiot. But we have been telling poor white people they are in some sense 'privileged' and they've now told us we are idiots.

I don't know if you've seen the documentary 'Making a Murderer'? It was quite effective in showing that poor white people suffer tremendous discrimination at the hands of the criminal justice system and broader society because they are poor (and 'white trash').

It's hard to make this point coherently, but I'll give it a go. If you imagine a scale from 0 to 100, where 0 is someone with no 'privilege' whatsoever, and 100 is someone like Donald Trump (rich, large inheritance, white, male, straight, elite etc). For arguments sake, let's say the average poor black man comes out at a 15 on this imaginary privilege scale... if an average poor white man comes out at a 25 on the scale, telling him he's 'privileged' is going to piss him off because there's a whole 75 points above him. He may have some more advantages in society compared to the poor black man, but he is still relatively unprivileged.


They should do all the things they are doing: vote for the democrats, form protest groups and try to influence institutions to eliminate racial bias. What we as liberals shouldn't do is see the fight for greater racial equality as a reason to tell other disadvantaged groups (i.e. the poor white working class) that they are 'privileged' because of their race. It's a completely counterproductive and divisive message.


Agree on all that. I'm not denying it's worse, on average, to be poor and black than it is to be poor and white, for all the reasons you state. But the poor have far more common grievances than differences, regardless of race. I can't be as eloquent as Obama, so I'll just point back to that passage of his speech I quoted above.
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Again thanks for the response. A lot of food for thought and future debate don't you think? I've enjoyed talking to you. Gonna read that link you sent.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
What I'm trying to explain is why the inevitable response is to feel attacked and get defensive. If we are to get liberals elected - and achieve real change - we need to find a message and a tactic which gets poor whites and blacks on the same side, not seeing each other as a threat or gaining advantages at the other group's expense.
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I agree with that wholeheartedly, and it will take effort from both sides to do so.

Honestly I think the recent elections both Brexit & Trump are the last throw of the dice for the old school way of thinking, there's a clear divide based on age, and I personally don't believe things will continue in this trend long term.
 
vi1lain said:
I agree with that wholeheartedly, and it will take effort from both sides to do so.

Honestly I think the recent elections both Brexit & Trump are the last throw of the dice for the old school way of thinking, there's a clear divide based on age, and I personally don't believe things will continue in this trend long term.
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I really want this to be true. :)
 
vi1lain said:
I agree with that wholeheartedly, and it will take effort from both sides to do so.

Honestly I think the recent elections both Brexit & Trump are the last throw of the dice for the old school way of thinking, there's a clear divide based on age, and I personally don't believe things will continue in this trend long term.
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I hope so. I'm less certain whether that will be the case though. The young haven't yet had their hopes and dreams crushed by the realities of the world. They could easily fall prey to the same reactionary and discriminatory forces that suckered in their parents, especially if their economic fortunes don't play out how they hope.
 
I could be wrong be it's worth saying the poorest and the middle class who did vote, voted in favour of Clinton. The problem was not enough people voted(I image that's more to do with Clinton being shite rather than people agreeing with Trump)



Pogue Mahone said:
Never heard/read that speech before. So on the money and gets right to the heart of the "whitelash" against the Democrats. Such a pity that it obviously didn't get heard by the people that needed to hear it.
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It's a bit cnuty of me but Obama for all his great talk hasn't help the situation at all.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
I hope so. I'm less certain whether that will be the case though. The young haven't yet had their hopes and dreams crushed by the realities of the world. They could easily fall prey to the same reactionary and discriminatory forces that suckered in their parents, especially if their economic fortunes don't play out how they hope.
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It isn't quite as simple as that.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mr-personality/201410/why-are-older-people-more-conservative

This should be perhaps be of greatest concern.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/10/do-we-become-more-conservative-age

This means that the Conservatives probably shouldn’t be too worried about their support base thinning out and being replaced by younger, less conservative generations. If history repeats itself, then as people get older they will turn to the Conservatives. Our evidence suggests that this is probably not due to “social ageing” (getting married, having children or an increasing income), but rather to the direct psychological processes of ageing that tend to make people more resistant to change. This, in turn, makes people gravitate towards parties that defend the status quo.

All this is good news for the Conservatives. The population as a whole is getting older, after all. What’s more, older people are more likely to vote than younger people. Looking to the future, politicians of the right should perhaps worry less about appealing to younger voters, in the hope that they’ll stick with the same party as they age. Instead, the main concern should be ensuring the continued loyalty of their older voters.
 
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Sweet Square said:
I could be wrong be it's worth saying the poorest and the middle class who did vote, voted in favour of Clinton. The problem was not enough people voted(I image that's more to do with Clinton being shite rather than people agreeing with Trump)
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Not really.

  • White voters, who make up 69% of the total, voted 58% for Trump and 37% for Clinton. Non-white voters, who make up 31% of the electorate, voted 74% for Clinton and 21% for Trump.
  • White men opted 63% for Trump and 31% for Clinton; white women voted 53% for Trump and 43% for Clinton.
  • Among non-college-educated whites, 67% voted for Trump – 72% of men and 62% of women.
  • Among college-educated whites, 45% voted for Clinton – 39% of men and 51% of women (the only white demographic represented in the poll where the former secretary of state came out on top). But 54% of male college graduates voted for Trump, as did 45% of female college graduates.
  • More 18- to 29-year-old whites voted for Trump (48%) than Clinton (43%).
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MikeUpNorth said:
I hope so. I'm less certain whether that will be the case though. The young haven't yet had their hopes and dreams crushed by the realities of the world. They could easily fall prey to the same reactionary and discriminatory forces that suckered in their parents, especially if their economic fortunes don't play out how they hope.
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When you think about the (un)affordibility of housing and the pitiful pensions future generations are facing, the seeds for disenchantment and pure anger are already well and truly sown.
 
This is a bit off the political correctness topic, but there was a Cracked article about the people that Mike has been talking about. The article is called "How Half Of America Lost Its F**king Mind", and I first found out about it from a video I watched a couple of weeks ago, which I'll post below as I think it's a good watch



The general topic comes up at 28:00 which I'd recommend watching from, but if you want to skip straight to the Cracked article go to 38:30.
 
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Olly said:
This is a bit off the political correctness topic, but there was a Cracked article about the people that Mike has been talking about. The article is called "How Half Of America Lost Its F**king Mind", and I first found out about it from a video I watched a couple of weeks ago, which I'll post below as I think it's a good watch



The general topic comes up at 28:00 which I'd recommend watching from, but if you want to skip straight to the Cracked article go to 38:30.
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Mockney posted that article a few weeks ago and it's one of the best I've read in terms of understanding Trump's appeal.
 
Olly said:
This is a bit off the political correctness topic, but there was a Cracked article about the people that Mike has been talking about. The article is called "How Half Of America Lost Its F**king Mind", and I first found out about it from a video I watched a couple of weeks ago, which I'll post below as I think it's a good watch
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It's so scarily fascinating how at least 85% of that article can be applied directly to my country (and I assume to so many other places in the 'western' and probably whole world).
 
I think that Liberals, especially white liberals, do have a bit of a weak spot when it comes to working class white people* which has led to them being alienated and pushed towards people like Trump.

Although I do think another inescapable conclusion from this election is that the panic over PC culture overwhelming america was a load of overblown bullshit. Mainly caused by the media focusing on some of the most liberal places in the world, colleges, where all these liberal students were free to run wild with their liberal ideas, then report it as if it was somehow going to be imposed on anyone else. The largest demographic of generation snowflake, whites, just voted for Trump, I think America can rest easy from the threat of safe spaces.

* I think this is best exemplified by the fact that Idiocracy is a film hailed as a genius work of satire. It's entire conceit is that the world is getting dumbed down because stupid people are breeding more than smart people. It's a very clearly smug, classist, eugenics inspired piece of shit rational that was not only accepted but hailed by a whole bunch of liberal people mainly because it is illustrated by a dumb white hillbilly family.
 
Conrad said:
I think that Liberals, especially white liberals, do have a bit of a weak spot when it comes to working class white people* which has led to them being alienated and pushed towards people like Trump.

Although I do think another inescapable conclusion from this election is that the panic over PC culture overwhelming america was a load of overblown bullshit. Mainly caused by the media focusing on some of the most liberal places in the world, colleges, where all these liberal students were free to run wild with their liberal ideas, then report it as if it was somehow going to be imposed on anyone else. The largest demographic of generation snowflake, whites, just voted for Trump, I think America can rest easy from the threat of safe spaces.

* I think this is best exemplified by the fact that Idiocracy is a film hailed as a genius work of satire. It's entire conceit is that the world is getting dumbed down because stupid people are breeding more than smart people. It's a very clearly smug, classist, eugenics inspired piece of shit rational that was not only accepted but hailed by a whole bunch of liberal people mainly because it is illustrated by a dumb white hillbilly family.
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I don't get the 'safe space' thing tbh. Do black college students really feel in such mortal terror when walking around campus that they need some form of black-only common panic room:confused:
 
I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad :(
 
Jippy said:
I don't get the 'safe space' thing tbh. Do black college students really feel in such mortal terror when walking around campus that they need some form of black-only common panic room:confused:
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Safe spaces aren't just for black people. It's for people triggered by whatever... took a course in Greek literature and found it a bit too rapey? Go stroke a kitten in the safe space room.

Edit: appears I'm conflating some stuff.

In educational institutions, safe-space (or safe space), safer-space, and positive space originally were terms used to indicate that a teacher, educational institution or student body does not tolerate anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place for all lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students.[2] The term safe space has been extended to refer to a space for individuals who feel marginalized to come together to communicate regarding their experiences with their perceived marginalization, typically on a university campus
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Eriku said:
Safe spaces aren't just for black people. It's for people triggered by whatever... took a course in Greek literature and found it a bit too rapey? Go stroke a kitten in the safe space room.
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They should try doing a boring bio course when the mouse experiments are described :lol:
 
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Jippy said:
I don't get the 'safe space' thing tbh. Do black college students really feel in such mortal terror when walking around campus that they need some form of black-only common panic room:confused:
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Safe spaces aren't literally rooms where people can be safe from physical danger. Nor are they particularly associated with black students. Safe space: "A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or challenged on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect, dignity and feelings and strongly encourage everyone to respect others".

Slightly over the top but they are mainly used by young liberal students who do tend to be a bit overzealous. Essentially harmless but people sure do love to make fun of them and portray them as america's biggest threat.
 
Eriku said:
I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad :(
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Wasn't sure what this was, googled it... what in the name of the holiest of feck.
 
Eriku said:
I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad :(
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Nah, just because some automatically group you with the most extreme on the other "side" for having different opinions, doesn't mean it's true. There are plenty of different ways to think about things than either A or B.

Seeing people moaning about non-Japanese people making sushi being offensive cultural appropriation and finding it ridiculous doesn't mean you're a Roy Chubby Brown fan who's angry that you can't talk about going for a "chinky" or to the "Paki shop".

Of course, saying all that, for all I know you might be a big racist bastard.
 
Eriku said:
Safe spaces aren't just for black people. It's for people triggered by whatever... took a course in Greek literature and found it a bit too rapey? Go stroke a kitten in the safe space room.

Edit: appears I'm conflating some stuff.
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Conrad said:
Safe spaces aren't literally rooms where people can be safe from physical danger. Nor are they particularly associated with black students. Safe space: "A place where anyone can relax and be fully self-expressed, without fear of being made to feel uncomfortable, unwelcome or challenged on account of biological sex, race/ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, cultural background, age, or physical or mental ability; a place where the rules guard each person's self-respect, dignity and feelings and strongly encourage everyone to respect others".

Slightly over the top but they are mainly used by young liberal students who do tend to be a bit overzealous. Essentially harmless but people sure do love to make fun of them and portray them as america's biggest threat.
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Not sure I'm any the wiser tbh. It does imply other communal areas are 'unsafe' by definition though. Life was less complicated when I was at uni.
 
Olly said:
Nah, just because some automatically group you with the most extreme on the other "side" for having different opinions, doesn't mean it's true. There are plenty of different ways to think about things than either A or B.

Seeing people moaning about non-Japanese people making sushi being offensive cultural appropriation and finding it ridiculous doesn't mean you're a Roy Chubby Brown fan who's angry that you can't talk about going for a "chinky" or to the "Paki shop".
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Don't take the red pill Olly!
 
Eriku said:
I hate that shit's gotten so bad that I find myself more or less thinking "yes" when faced with the question posed by this thread. I'm in a fecking group with men's rights activists and red pillers and other scum. Personally I reckon political correctness is fine... it's essentially just common courtesy... but it had to go mad :(
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Hehe. Exactly where I'm at too.
 
Olly said:
Nah, just because some automatically group you with the most extreme on the other "side" for having different opinions, doesn't mean it's true. There are plenty of different ways to think about things than either A or B.

Seeing people moaning about non-Japanese people making sushi being offensive cultural appropriation and finding it ridiculous doesn't mean you're a Roy Chubby Brown fan who's angry that you can't talk about going for a "chinky" or to the "Paki shop".

Of course, saying all that, for all I know you might be a big racist bastard.
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:lol:

So you're saying Hitler and Gandhi aren't essentially the same by virtue of their vegetarianism? Interesting.
 
berbatrick said:
@Ubik
If you want to get a little sick every day.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/

#cuckandproud or something. It's amazing that the right-wingers who deify personal responsibility aren't willing to take responsibility for their failure to attract women.
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Good grief. Honestly I probably should keep tabs on that, I keep getting surprised there are these people out there, I'm naive as feck.
Eriku said:
Sorry about that, I should have spoilered it. We usually don't free a mind once it's past a certain age.
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Genuinely wondering whether I need to learn Kung-Fu.
 
Jippy said:
I assumed it was a Matrix thing. These new liberals are on a different wavelength to me.
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The concept is indeed from the Matrix. These worthies have taken the bitter pill, snapped out of our manufactured reality, and uncovered the truth!
The truth that women are some sort of manipulative gods, feminism is a movement dedicated to denying sex to men, and that , to quote a current upvoted post, "You Owe Women You Just Met Absolutely Nothing Except a Proper fecking"
 
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