Yes, they do
Does anybody else think Smalling & Jones get too much stick?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Yeah, see, this is rubbish. We are solid defensively. We were last season, too, no matter how hard people try to airbrush Van Gaal out of our recent history. He happened, as did the fact we conceded the third fewest amount of shots on goal. This season, we are joint fourth lowest alongside Spurs. We don't concede many goals, our defenders are good, and the reasons we lie in fifth place is because our attackers are mediocre and flaky and our manager has been making his job more difficult that it need be. This former is backed up by hard evidence, the latter is just my opinion, of course.
Yeah, if you ignore how often we shit our pants as soon as we stopped passing it sideways, we were great defensively. Luckily we mostly passed it sideways forever and ever and ever.
Now we actually play some decent football and control with the midfield when we can, but still look dodgy at the back when attacked (we actually look better in defence when attacked more rather than sporadically and taken by surprise).
Yup, too much stick. The Jones criticism is particularly ridiculous. That GIF of him heading the ball away shows him as possessing great improvisation, courage and skill. And more importantly, it prevented a goal. Yet some keep wheeling it out as an example of how he is somehow a poor defender.
We've conceded 23 goals in 27 games. That's fecking incredible, however you spin it. Only Tottenham and Chelsea have a better record, but they did it with regular DM/sweeper in the side.
If you a 30 year old Carrick in this team, we'd have the best defence in the PL by a distance and not be too far off the best defence in Europe. It's all about small margins and the CBs are not the most significant part of that.
If you a 30 year old Carrick in this team, we'd have the best defence in the PL by a distance and not be too far off the best defence in Europe. It's all about small margins and the CBs are not the most significant part of that.
Unfortunately we've all been accustomed to high levels of play across the field because of SAF. With that being said, yeah we definitely talk down at our players too much for sure, I guess it's the nature of the forum also though, mistakes are highlighted more, seems human nature enough to me.
Seems you don't get my point.
What i mean by leader is someone who their teammates can rely upon in defence every games. Defender that can actually organise his teammates in defending, and i think Smalling isn't that one, neither do Jones. Do you think Mourinho believes solely in Smalling in games? heck, even he used all his defenders in game again Boro. I never stated he is bad defender,just squad player, United can look for someone with better quality.
What's wrong about having different opinions by the way? Seems like every negative opinions here make your bloods boil.
No. Both would get slaughtered if they weren't English and signed by Fergie. They just don't compare favorably to our previous generation of defenders. I'd kill to have Wes Brown in his prime over either of them.
I think they're rated accurately. The most repeated criticism they get is fair. Jones is decent but injury prone and Smalling is poor on the ball. The knee jerk reaction they get after a loss where people demand they're sold for not being good enough is wrong but again the general perception is accurate.
The problem I see is we have 4 peak Evans (who was quite good) and no Vidic or Ferdinand world class types. The popular answer is to go into the market but I struggle to think of who to get. The genuine world class ones are unattainable or we're paying 50 million for someone either approaching or in their 30's which isn't a good investment. If we buy a younger player we have to expect them to play like a young defender. You can't just buy a good defence. Look at the difficulty City have had.
The problem I see is we have 4 peak Evans (who was quite good) and no Vidic or Ferdinand world class types. The popular answer is to go into the market but I struggle to think of who to get. The genuine world class ones are unattainable or we're paying 50 million for someone either approaching or in their 30's which isn't a good investment. If we buy a younger player we have to expect them to play like a young defender. You can't just buy a good defence. Look at the difficulty City have had.
Shockingly bad reply. No, wearing the captain's armband is leading. Which he is clearly doing.Walking out first is leading?
Nothing wrong with having a different opinion. The problem is having a silly opinion that is based on little or no fact.
How could you believe he lacks leadership when he is the team's 3rd captain behind Rooney and Carrick?
Do you actually watch games? Because I always see him talking to his backline telling them when to push up or which man to mark.
We're the 3rd best defence in Europe in 2017. Only Bayern and Juventus have conceded less in the league.
We have conceded less league goals than Real Madrid and Barcelona over the course of the season and are tied with Atletico Madrid on 23 goals conceded.
We are already one of the top defences in Europe as things stand.
Wearing the armband is leading then? Just as laughable.
Do you know what it means when a player wears the captain's armband?
You do know it's not just an accessory, right?
So everyone who has ever wore a captains armband was a good captain and leader?
Your kind of drugs must be the really good kind that even I cannot get ahold of.
What position are you in to say Smalling is not a good leader?
What exactly is it, that makes you think he is a bad leader? What is the evidence that drives your opinion?
He was voted by his teamates to be the 3rd captain after Rooney and Carrick, surely you can comprehend that it means they respect him as a leadership figure in the dressing room and on the pitch. He has maintained this role under Mourinho, so surely Mourinho sees it too.
He's been praised by LvG, Henry, Carragher, Rashford, Neville and quite a few others for his leadership abilities in the past. He was earmarked for a leadership role under Fergie too.
No drugs are informing my opinion, just the facts. Of which you've provided none.
Facts for you have been him having the armband means he is a great leader.
Problem is, you seem to be looking for a discussion where all that has been pointed out is the laughable way you present your "facts".
I've not said anything about Smallings ability to lead, but i find the idea of him being a great captain and leader because he wears the armband laughable, which is why you got a laughing smiley to begin with.
I know feck all about how he leads, pointing and shouting doesnt mean he is pointing at the right places or shouting the right things though, he could be anywhere from a terrible leader to a great one, for me that doesn't matter as he as a player isn't good enough for where i want Manchester United to be.
Clamoring to us having let in few goals doesn't make up for us looking shaky whenever someone is attacking our defense, that Smalling is terrible in the buildup play which makes it harder for the team to score goals and that he despite his supposed "best cb in the league/world" status amongst some of our fanbase has been far away from first choice standard at a club aspiring to be a top gun i europe.
You can moan on about your facts, how you think wearing an armband and pointing and yellings proves he is a good captain all you want, its laughable, not because he couldnt possibly be a good captain, but because your reasoning to believe so is.
As for being third choice, sure it could mean he is doing a good job, or it could mean he is doing an acceptable job. Not every manager care much for who the captain is, and I havent heard about many setting the foot down on who should be the 3rd choice captain before either. Again, it proves nothing, neither one way nor the other.
So why post in the thread if you basically came in to say nothing? My word.
Both very capable on their day, but both prone to massive massive errors far too often.
Simply put, not good enough.
Simply put, not good enough.
Who is good enough in your opinion to take their places?
Interesting thread.
On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being extremely good and 1 being extremely poor, I will rate (based on this season), Smalling 4 and Jones 5.
This is based on my personal preferences for defenders and the type of football I like to see United play.
I think the modern day defender must be steady in defence, be comfortable with the ball, link up well with the midfield/forwards and on occasions offer goal scoring threats in the opposition box especially during set pieces. This is why my favourite defenders in United at the moment are Valencia, Rojo and Young (I like each time he has been played as a wing back).
The impressive defensive results we have seen recently under LVG and Jose, have more to do with the way the managers set up their teams (LVG and Jose have fabulous track records in organising teams to defend) than the individual skills of our defenders, in my opinion.
I don't think it's fair to blame Smalling and Jones for all the woes the team has had this season but in all honesty, they have not been good enough in terms of displaying football intelligence, linking up for atacks and transmitting confidence, except for occasional spells.
If I had the power, I would buy one very solid, ball playing center back, sell Jones and make Smalling a squad player.
On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being extremely good and 1 being extremely poor, I will rate (based on this season), Smalling 4 and Jones 5.
This is based on my personal preferences for defenders and the type of football I like to see United play.
I think the modern day defender must be steady in defence, be comfortable with the ball, link up well with the midfield/forwards and on occasions offer goal scoring threats in the opposition box especially during set pieces. This is why my favourite defenders in United at the moment are Valencia, Rojo and Young (I like each time he has been played as a wing back).
The impressive defensive results we have seen recently under LVG and Jose, have more to do with the way the managers set up their teams (LVG and Jose have fabulous track records in organising teams to defend) than the individual skills of our defenders, in my opinion.
I don't think it's fair to blame Smalling and Jones for all the woes the team has had this season but in all honesty, they have not been good enough in terms of displaying football intelligence, linking up for atacks and transmitting confidence, except for occasional spells.
If I had the power, I would buy one very solid, ball playing center back, sell Jones and make Smalling a squad player.
Isn't this the case for any team with a good defence?
Do you mind providing names of suitable candidates? A common theme in this thread seems to involve people saying, "I would replace Smalling/Jones for a defender who is a better ball player" but nobody seems to be indentifying who exactly these amazing ball-playing centre backs are.
No, they don't.
Great contribution
Not much more to say. Every player gets criticism and I don't see how either of these two get more than anyone else. Jones was rightly praised quite a-bit earlier in the season when himself and Rojo formed a very good partnership. Smalling has a cult following on here and yeah he gets criticised, but he gets overrated in equal measures.
I'm sure it's going to be a magical Lindelof or a unicorn Manolas or some wizard Gimenez or something.
You know, whoever Football Manager's given high potential rating to this season.
I'd say any decent defender who doesn't miss at least 3 or 4 months every season is an upgrade on Jones.
Pallister was far better on the ball than Bailly. I think he jumps in and is reckless. I do think he could be a tremendous right back though - tough tackling, quick, will get forward and he could learn the role
Smalling isn't good enough. He's terrible with the ball at his feet. He has no football brain. His first reaction every time is safety first and to put the ball in Row Z like an overeager schoolboy footballer.
A United CB should be comfortable on the ball and be able to take the ball out of defence.
A United CB should be comfortable on the ball and be able to take the ball out of defence.
Bailly is still young. Put someone whose got some brains near him and he'll shine as CB.
That's quite ironic since FM rates Jones and Smalling quite highly
No need for Football Manager and apparently we all already know the magical Lindelof and the wizard Gimenez.. I am pretty sure the United scouting team can find a handful of other center backs who can handle the ball decently and transmit confidence at the back.
At the end, it's Jose's opinion that will matter not mine but I have a feeling he knows he needs a new center back.
We'll see how things go.
It is but it doesn't matter, they are surely rated highly just by association because they play for MU. We only care about the ratings of other players, not our own. Those other players have earned their ratings.
Grass is always greener and all that....
We'll see indeed.
If people are rating players out of FM stats then they would want Smalling and Jones to remain. In my opinion, those who want Smalling and Jones out are the same who are fed up of this musical chair game in CD. These gentlemen had 3 years to build a solid CB partnership in defence and they had failed miserably.
Some of you still talk about them as if they are 18 year olds who need an experienced head to keep them in line. Well they are not. FFS Smalling is just 2 years younger then Bonucci. That's unbelievable considering the enormous gap between the two.
Vidic was the same. Although Smalling is a little worse on the ball most of the time.
Failed miserably? Quite a dramatic statement.
What planet do some of you live on? There is no way we could be watching the same team.
Vidic was 10 times better then Smalling
Of course they did. Jones keeps breaking time and time again. You cant rely on a player like that. Smalling is our version of Hodor. He's big, he's strong and he's dumb. You expect some maturity from someone whose just 2 years younger then Bonucci. At his age Vidic-Rio were winning CL and league titles not trying to head the ball while its on the pitch.
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Pallister joined in 89 the Premier League started in 92? I also think Pallister was better on the ball than you remember mate, i remember him being a decent dribbler even with the odd raid up the wing which i always found funny.
As for comparing Bailly to Ferdinand lets not get ahead of ourselves, the kids had 10-15 good games for us. Lets see how he develops over the next year or two before we start comparing him to one of the games best ever defenders.