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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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  • Poll closed .
Hammond just sent Johnson to detention. If only the electorate was wise enough to properly do that to the Tories.
 
In my opinion Hammond is extremely isolated in a party ruled by xenophobics (May, Boris, Davies)
 
devilish said:
In my opinion Hammond is extremely isolated in a party ruled by xenophobics (May, Boris, Davies)
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Think it will be back him or sack him, if May continues as PM the UK are going to crash out of the EU, if the Tories don't want this then they'll have to remove her more quickly than they intended. Hammond for PM?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Think it will be back him or sack him, if May continues as PM the UK are going to crash out of the EU, if the Tories don't want this then they'll have to remove her more quickly than they intended. Hammond for PM?
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I don't think they can really sack him else they will risk an internal revolt by the remainer MPs which can easily cause the government to fall. On the other hand I doubt he's got enough support to end up PM.

Brexit is the biggest thing ever happening to the UK since Churchill's declaration of war. Its far too big for the Tory Party to handle alone especially since they lack both the quality negotiators and the numbers in parliament to do so. A cross party committee needs to be set up and that committee will be responsible to negotiate with the EU regarding Brexit. The EU will never take such weak and divided government seriously especially one that will probably lose majority at any moment.
 
devilish said:
I don't think they can really sack him else they will risk an internal revolt by the remainer MPs which can easily cause the government to fall. On the other hand I doubt he's got enough support to end up PM.

Brexit is the biggest thing ever happening to the UK since Churchill's declaration of war. Its far too big for the Tory Party to handle alone especially since they lack both the quality negotiators and the numbers in parliament to do so. A cross party committee needs to be set up and that committee will be responsible to negotiate with the EU regarding Brexit. The EU will never take such weak and divided government seriously especially one that will probably lose majority at any moment.
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It was Chamberlain not Churchill btw;)- yes I agree with all that you said but May is driven by the "will of the people" and will career towards oblivion if she can stay in power. Something has to happen, but what and when, talks are not going to go very far if May maintains this stance.
 
It's a right nationwide mess. White working class + conservative nationalists + xenophobes + right wing cranky press on one side, conservative business + urban cosmopolitans + liberals/socialists on the other. That is before the exact details conditons are agreed. Really wouldn't like say how this will end up. The press and government were trying to exploit patriotism and denigrate the EU's position well before Brexit was declared and it will most likely get worse as the negotiations develop. If the EU is seen to be getting the upper hand, it will get much worse.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
It was Chamberlain not Churchill btw;)- yes I agree with all that you said but May is driven by the "will of the people" and will career towards oblivion if she can stay in power. Something has to happen, but what and when, talks are not going to go very far if May maintains this stance.
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I am referring to national interest here. This government is simply too weak to negotiate on the UK behalf. I know, because my country was pretty much in the same situation when it negotiated its way in the EU. We had the nationalist party (51% of the votes) who were pro EU and the Labour party (49% of the votes) who was in favour of a wait and see approach with Malta first sealing deals with the EU (ie the Swiss model) and then join the EU at a later stage. The EU exploited that division to its favour just like any seasoned negotiator would do.

From a political POV it makes sense to take this route as well. Lets face it, TM's political career is doomed either way. However she can make sure not to drag her party with her, at least for a long period of time. A cross political committee would share the glories in case of a good Brexit but would also also share the blame in case of a horrible one. JC or NS wont be able to say, 'I have no fault in this' if they are actively involved in the negotiations

Unless DD knows for sure that hard Brexit will be beneficial to the UK then the cross party negotiations are the way to go. A bad Brexit will sign the end of career to Boris, May, Gove and Davis with Farage likely to have to escape the islands to avoid being lynched.
 
jackofalltrades said:
It's a right nationwide mess. White working class + conservative nationalists + xenophobes + right wing cranky press on one side, conservative business + urban cosmopolitans + liberals/socialists on the other. That is before the exact details conditons are agreed. Really wouldn't like say how this will end up. The press and government were trying to exploit patriotism and denigrate the EU's position well before Brexit was declared and it will most likely get worse as the negotiations develop. If the EU is seen to be getting the upper hand, it will get much worse.
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If you ask me, the UK biggest mistake was to reveal it cards early. It should have waited to set its house in order first, Activation of article 50 could have waited until a cross party committee had been set and certain reassurances were made on key issues. Sure such delay would have made Europe's economy tremble. However the UK economy is far more resilient than that of Spain's or Italy's which means they would hurt more then the UK would.

Once the EU agrees to deal with the UK before article 50 is activated then no door should have been closed until it was literally slammed at the UK's face. Everything from the single market to the customs union right to EU membership should have been negotiated with the promise that, if a good deal is offered, then the UK would consider doing a second referendum with everyone across the board backing it. It might sound outrageous but that's exactly what Boris promised at the early stages of the Brexit campaign.

Instead we've got this mess, were EU negotiators were insulted before they even started doing their job and were doors were shut before anyone even considered an alternative route. Everything from expats to values were used as bargaining chips in a business transaction which the UK stand more to lose then the UK.
 
devilish said:
I am referring to national interest here. This government is simply too weak to negotiate on the UK behalf. I know, because my country was pretty much in the same situation when it negotiated its way in the EU. We had the nationalist party (51% of the votes) who were pro EU and the Labour party (49% of the votes) who was in favour of a wait and see approach with Malta first sealing deals with the EU (ie the Swiss model) and then join the EU at a later stage. The EU exploited that division to its favour just like any seasoned negotiator would do.

From a political POV it makes sense to take this route as well. Lets face it, TM's political career is doomed either way. However she can make sure not to drag her party with her, at least for a long period of time. A cross political committee would share the glories in case of a good Brexit but would also also share the blame in case of a horrible one. JC or NS wont be able to say, 'I have no fault in this' if they are actively involved in the negotiations

Unless DD knows for sure that hard Brexit will be beneficial to the UK then the cross party negotiations are the way to go. A bad Brexit will sign the end of career to Boris, May, Gove and Davis with Farage likely to have to escape the islands to avoid being lynched.
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Yes if the national interest was the driving force in all this . The only thing that matters to most of them is their moment in the limelight. May and Boris have changed stances more than they change their clothes .The only thing that can save May now is to come out of the EU negotiations with an unbelievable deal for the UK, so yes her career is finished. But none of the others want to be seen to be to blame directly, they hope to pounce when May messes up.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Yes if the national interest was the driving force in all this . The only thing that matters to most of them is their moment in the limelight. May and Boris have changed stances more than they change their clothes .The only thing that can save May now is to come out of the EU negotiations with an unbelievable deal for the UK, so yes her career is finished. But none of the others want to be seen to be to blame directly, they hope to pounce when May messes up.
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People aren't stupid. TM is not the nicest person around but she's a remainer. If Brexit is a mess then TM will sink and she will take Davis, Johnson, Gove and Fox with her. We'll be looking for 10 years of labour after that.
 
devilish said:
If you ask me, the UK biggest mistake was to reveal it cards early. It should have waited to set its house in order first, Activation of article 50 could have waited until a cross party committee had been set and certain reassurances were made on key issues. Sure such delay would have made Europe's economy tremble. However the UK economy is far more resilient than that of Spain's or Italy's which means they would hurt more then the UK would.

Once the EU agrees to deal with the UK before article 50 is activated then no door should have been closed until it was literally slammed at the UK's face. Everything from the single market to the customs union right to EU membership should have been negotiated with the promise that, if a good deal is offered, then the UK would consider doing a second referendum with everyone across the board backing it. It might sound outrageous but that's exactly what Boris promised at the early stages of the Brexit campaign.

Instead we've got this mess, were EU negotiators were insulted before they even started doing their job and were doors were shut before anyone even considered an alternative route. Everything from expats to values were used as bargaining chips in a business transaction which the UK stand more to lose then the UK.
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I should have included some left wing socialists in the pro-Brexit group. But as it stands the divisions across the country are reflected in the parties too. The majority of MPs are pro-Remain, but the Tories, having called a referendum and having formed a new government on the basis of Brexit, can hardly backtrack without harming themselves. Their desire to hold on to power is stronger than their patriotism,imo.

Labour has in a similar dilemma. Having won back votes from the very same working class that had felt abandoned by them, they cannot easily now move toward a remain position unless they compensate by offering a great deal.

Both parties have important internal divisons and I do not see how a government of national interest or cross party approach could work.
 
jackofalltrades said:
I should have included some left wing socialists in the pro-Brexit group. But as it stands the divisions across the country are reflected in the parties too. The majority of MPs are pro-Remain, but the Tories, having called a referendum and having formed a new government on the basis of Brexit, can hardly backtrack without harming themselves. Their desire to hold on to power is stronger than their patriotism,imo.

Labour has in a similar dilemma. Having won back votes from the very same working class that had felt abandoned by them, they cannot easily now move toward a remain position unless they compensate by offering a great deal.

Both parties have important internal divisons and I do not see how a government of national interest or cross party approach could work.
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Let me put things clear. Its within Tory and national interest that a cross party committee is set up to negotiate Brexit. It would strengthen the UK negotiation hand and it will distribute any blame of a possibly bad Brexit to a number to mainstream politics as a whole.

However assuming a horrible Brexit is imminent that its certainly not within the labour party interest to accept these conditions. A poorer UK which the Tory party and the anti foreign UKIP had single handedly ruined will strengthen the labour party and the left wing politics as a whole. After that disaster and if played well, JC can be in a position were he would label the entire Tory politics as outdated, detrimental and the very reason why the country is in shambles. We're talking here of at least a decade of labour rule here.
 
jackofalltrades said:
I should have included some left wing socialists in the pro-Brexit group. But as it stands the divisions across the country are reflected in the parties too. The majority of MPs are pro-Remain, but the Tories, having called a referendum and having formed a new government on the basis of Brexit, can hardly backtrack without harming themselves. Their desire to hold on to power is stronger than their patriotism,imo.

Labour has in a similar dilemma. Having won back votes from the very same working class that had felt abandoned by them, they cannot easily now move toward a remain position unless they compensate by offering a great deal.

Both parties have important internal divisons and I do not see how a government of national interest or cross party approach could work.
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A cross party coalition on Brexit really was the only way forward. We are talking about something that will affect us for the next 30 years.

But with Labour never having been so far left wing since the early 90's, and arguably the Tories never having been so far right wing since... (arguable), there was little chance of that.
 
rcoobc said:
A cross party coalition on Brexit really was the only way forward. We are talking about something that will affect us for the next 30 years.

But with Labour never having been so far left wing since the early 90's, and arguably the Tories never having been so far right wing since... (arguable), there was little chance of that.
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I agree. This is the battle of ideologies and Brexit will probably determine the new government for at least the next 10 years. The only winner out of this seems to be the EU. It will be dealing with a very weak government who can probably be toppled by simply saying no and send Davis to Westminster empty handed.
 
rcoobc said:
A cross party coalition on Brexit really was the only way forward. We are talking about something that will affect us for the next 30 years.

But with Labour never having been so far left wing since the early 90's, and arguably the Tories never having been so far right wing since... (arguable), there was little chance of that.
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I agree but I would also add that the labour leader is still at odds with many (most?) of his parliamentary party.
 
So when can we expect one of our great leaders to proclaim that "the Emperor is in the altogether!" and seriously suggest a 2nd referendum?

I voted to Remain, however, which 'side' you where on this time last year feels irrelevant now. I think it is quite clear that a 2nd referendum tomorrow would see at least a 10pt swing in favour of Remain

Yet still we are facing the abyss because nobody has the courage to stand up and do the right thing.
 
Choose tory
Choose referendum
Choose brexit
Vote in general election
Choose tory again
Choose indecision
Choose udp
Choose chaos
Choose indecision
Choose wrong unstable leadership......

I chose not to choose tory, i chose something better
 
Lentwood said:
So when can we expect one of our great leaders to proclaim that "the Emperor is in the altogether!" and seriously suggest a 2nd referendum?

I voted to Remain, however, which 'side' you where on this time last year feels irrelevant now. I think it is quite clear that a 2nd referendum tomorrow would see at least a 10pt swing in favour of Remain

Yet still we are facing the abyss because nobody has the courage to stand up and do the right thing.
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As Stanley just alluded to, you're in a country that has willingly voted Tory, Tory, Brexit, Tory. I think it's rather naive to believe Remain would suddenly win comfortably in that context.
 
sullydnl said:
As Stanley just alluded to, you're in a country that has willingly voted Tory, Tory, Brexit, Tory. I think it's rather naive to believe Remain would suddenly win comfortably in that context.
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It is, the country has clearly spoken. They want brexit and they want the udp to deliver it with may calling their shots.
 
“The US has a number of agreements with the EU on on economics, on security, and on trade that the UK is party to at the moment and we will want to ensure we continue those as we leave the EU so there is no disruption to trade and to markets, it is very important that we do so,”

Taking back control and working hard for something you already had. Living the dream.
 
I cannot wait to taste the US's hormone-powered meat. Global Britain will be amazing.
 
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