So like I said , you don't want any actual sanctions at all, which again is fine.
North Korea
- Thread starter Raoul
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Just wait till he tweets it at 3 in the morning.
China like all nations does what is in their best interest or more correctly what they think is their best interest, again like all nations
For 70 some years they have happily backed the NK regime regardless of various NK actions (starting the Korean War which is the only reason us troops are there to begin with, attempting to kill ROK leaders, Slave labor, Etc etc).
If they are unhappy with the situation they can start with blaming themselves and stop worrying about other side issues. They need to stop crying about US troops when they are a huge reason any troops are there to begin with.
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If there was a clear cut diplomatic solution then it would've happened a long time ago. The regime clearly isn't interested in any solutions that don't meet its end state objectives of reunifying Korea as a totalitarian state.
Fair point. It just seems trust is the big issue here between the guys capable of sorting this.
Surely the US knows all the locations of these? I know there's a shit tonne, but could they not nullify most of the threat quite quickly? Maybe I'm underestimating it.
Which is? And it has to be something all says will realistically agree to.
Things like lift the sanctions and NK gives up it's nuke program would not be realistic since that is why the current sanctions are in place. So obviously NK will not agree to that or the situation would be done long ago.
It really depends on what standing orders the military has and/or how quickly orders to fire could be issued and by whom.
A quick taking out of all artillary/rocket/missile sites is very unlikely.
I think so... they are dug in and fortified... and there is 15000 some of which could fire chemical weapons
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_58f631a4e4b0b9e9848eb990/amp
One volley from these is equivalent to eleven b52 bombers and they can deliver a second volley a matter of seconds later... so it's not insignificant even without sarin or vx being blasted onto a city of 20 million people
That's like Corbyn's logic towards ISIS. To come to an agreement with someone the basic requirement is you have some kind of middle ground where you can both walk away satisified, tell me, what is that in this case?
In the 1980s Kim 2nd spoke about unification but with both sides keeping their existing political situations for a transition period till a solution was agreed on.
In 2000 both countries signed the June 15 north South declaration where they agreed to work towards a peaceful reunification...
I'd hope that if the diplomats get in a room and can keep Kim and trump away from their respective launch buttons (and twitter) perhaps more sensible heads can prevail... got to be worth a try
You still don't get it do you. If that was remotely possible it would've happened ages ago. South Korea has twice the population of North Korea and is a democratic state. They aren't interested in becoming a peasant colony of the Kim family.
70 years and zero indications the family dynasty created and supported by Russia and China wants to give up power.
If the reports coming from the many defectors who have fled NK are true then the regime have been starving their own population for the last 20 or so years, mainly to fund their nuclear programme. As for freezing to death...well NK always have the option to keep the large amounts of coal they export to China and use it to keep their own people warm.
That would only work if disarming was an option for NK wouldn't it?
Let him have his weapons. The only reason he's got them is because he's paranoid , his country is surrounded by historical enemies that have also crippled his economy. Take away the sanctions and leave him alone. He doesn't want a war he just wants to look hard, like a strong leader.
I guarantee he stops being aggressive.
Then a year later invite the mad cnut to Disneyland, and everything will be fine.
Never going to happen but it's the only to stop this, otherwise he's just not going to drop his guns.
I guarantee he stops being aggressive.
Then a year later invite the mad cnut to Disneyland, and everything will be fine.
Never going to happen but it's the only to stop this, otherwise he's just not going to drop his guns.
That's good to know, was getting worried but if MoBeats from redcafe guarantees me the peaceful intentions of pal Kim I'm relieved.
I'd put a 10er on it.
Have you guys seen this live stream of some guy who claims to be in North Korea . He says he's an American, has the US flag on his wall and is sat there listening to North Korean propaganda 
Edit - It seems more likely its just someone joking around and has spoofed his ip address and that's why the location appears as he's in North Korea. Seems too far-fetched for it to be legit.
https://www.pscp.tv/KristB253/1YpKkmEeyEBJj?
Edit - It seems more likely its just someone joking around and has spoofed his ip address and that's why the location appears as he's in North Korea. Seems too far-fetched for it to be legit.
https://www.pscp.tv/KristB253/1YpKkmEeyEBJj?
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There's no one that fat in North Korea apart from Kim himself.Have you guys seen this live stream of some guy who claims to be in North Korea . He says he's an American, has the US flag on his wall and is sat there listening to North Korean propaganda
Edit - It seems more likely its just someone joking around and has spoofed his ip address and that's why the location appears as he's in North Korea. Seems too far-fetched.
https://www.pscp.tv/KristB253/1YpKkmEeyEBJj?
Facepalm!
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Worth throwing it out there that while we're all happy to blame the Russians and Chinese for supporting North Korea, you have declassified CIA reports demonstrating that Western Europe, Japan and others have done the same for decades...there's nuances to the story, of course, but still worth acknowledging this isn't an issue solely created by "the enemy".
Laughable really.
North Korea exists under the Kim dynasty solely because of the support Russia and China. Nothing really difficult to understand about that.
That other nations have done business with them does not change that.
The report actually shows how much they depend on China and Russia even if the data is over 40 years old.
Sorry pretty poor attempt to try and shift responsibility for the existence of the Kim dynasty away from those who are responsible.
I mean there is a huge difference between doing business with a nation and setting up a family dynasty, arming and training it's military, directly supporting it in a war of aggression, propping it up for over 70 years, etc etc etc.
Raoul can I ask have you ever lived out there... ever spent any time with anyb
They have to keep it... China won't buy any since the sanctions this year
That said no don't have enough infra to turn it all into electric hence China exports a lot of electricity to them.
No way they're crazy enough to initiate any sort of attack.
it's not an attack.
It'll be another missile test. They've done 2-3 ICBM launches in the past few months.
Even continuing to just test in the current political climate is unbelievably stupid.
Poor McMaster must be getting zero sleep.
Either they want to get to a point where they can force sanction removal etc or they're on course to go out with a bang.
If it is just war games to strengthen their hand then you wonder how far they wish to go to "prove" their capabilities. I'm not sure being strong armed into sanction removal is going to play out well in the long run
If it is just war games to strengthen their hand then you wonder how far they wish to go to "prove" their capabilities. I'm not sure being strong armed into sanction removal is going to play out well in the long run
Sanction removal won't happen unless they show some flexibility and stop flapping their dick around. Even in BO's admin, they started relaxing sanctions on Iran once they assented to a UN nuclear inspection of their enrichment sites.
Trump threatening China with trade restrictions seems a particularly stupid thing to do. Trump needs China as an ally, not an enemy, how does he possibly imagine they will react?
Its the deep sea fish that I feel sorry for.
By making him a yuge offer
Let us assume the South are willing for reunification to happen.
They are not going to sign up to it without guarantees of what the future of Korea will be. One non-negotiable is inevitably going to be that Kim is stripped of all powers and must stand for president like any other candidate. Do you really think South Korea are going to allow a Korea presidential vote to take place while Kim holds the North under the rule he currently has? While completely reasonable, I can't see Kim going for that.
EDIT: You then have the problem that South Korea has twice the population of the North. Any South Korean candidate is pretty much guaranteed to win an election up against Kim even if he got the entire North to vote for him. So Kim is going to essentially have to give up his entire family dynasty and put his military and everything else under the control of a South Korean president. I can't see that happening.
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Reunification is going to happen only when Kim is out of the way - everyone and anyone who believes any different is being gullible.
If Kim was your standard dictator, there could be some arrangement along the lines of a unity govt - some shared powers...etc etc. But, stuff like that is a non-starter with people like Kim.
Oh and lots of tough 'talk' at the UN
If Kim was your standard dictator, there could be some arrangement along the lines of a unity govt - some shared powers...etc etc. But, stuff like that is a non-starter with people like Kim.
Oh and lots of tough 'talk' at the UN
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What's your take on Kissinger's viewpoint, in that case? At the very least it suggests that it isn't only the viewpoint of misinformed, idealistic sections of the public. Whether or not he has any sway over the current administration is up for debate but the reality is his opinion is one that was entertained at the highest levels earlier this year. It's based on this article in the WSJ.
His points can broadly be summarised as:
- China aren't interested in helping the US or its allies and never will be, but the political winds are changing to align the core objective of both - to get rid of the nuclear weapons
- China are (legitimately) worried about having US troops stationed on their border and refugees flowing into their country, but there is a point where that becomes a lesser concern
- That point is on the horizon, in which the legitimate threat of nuclear attacks from North Korea will push the likes of South Korea and Japan to build nuclear weapons themselves
- Widespread nuclear armament in the region, particularly among US allies, is a greater concern to China than the denuclearisation of North Korea and the subsequent results
- A unified, US-backed Korea would be something China would consider, on the provision that high performance weapons and troops wouldn't be positioned close to the border
- Past conversations (which he was involved in or briefed on) revolved around the current issues, with a nationalistic focus, rather than the future of the region for China in particular
- Previously North Korea was an integral part of the communist movement led by China in the region, and until recently was managed by the communist party, not the foreign ministry
- Since then it has become more detached and China has openly seperated itself from the North Korea more explicitly than before, largely because of the growing nuclear threat
The problem that arises now is how do you go about it? Up until recently the only real issues with a ground invasion of North Korea apart from China was the large contingency of artillery it had which were within range of Seoul and how to deal with the population afterwards. Now it seems the threat of nuclear tipped warheads is, if not now, imminently going to be part of the equation. That's an entirely different proposition. It would take weeks for the US to mass enough forces to conduct a swift invasion, plenty of time for Kim to know what is coming. THAAD isn't designed to take down ICBM's, no one really has a reliable, field-tested system proven to shoot down ICBM's. Seoul, Tokyo, Guam and even some eastern US cities would be at a very real risk of being nuked.
Some of his points may ring true. I think the North Korean situation is reducible to one fundamental point, which is that China will prefer to avoid any sort of nuclear confrontation on its doorstep for fear that it could rapidly escalate to where it itself would have to get militarily involved. Therefore there’s a high chance they will eventually capitulate and support a strong economic sanctioning regime against Kim and his elites. The cost benefit of doing the latter far outweighs the former, even if it means eventual Korean reunification under South Korean terms. For the great powers, there is far more to lose economically if they were to not cooperate on this.