As predicted. The UK will now toy around the idea of joining NAFTA
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...e-deal-telegraph-newspaper-idUSKBN1CF18K?il=0
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...e-deal-telegraph-newspaper-idUSKBN1CF18K?il=0
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
The will of the people is something that can change from one week to the next. Even Leave supporters seem to be finally realizing that Brexit is going to result in some pretty horrible consequences, yet we keep coming back to this 'will of the people' line. Answer me this: If a second referendum was held with the truth about dramatic economic and political consequences put out there clearly and honestly to the UK public, do you really believe that Leave would win again? Because if you DO believe that, then there should be no reason not to ask the question to the public, and if you don't believe that then you should certainly support a second referendum. Unless the 'will of the people' doesn't matter to you any more?
Its always the wealthy who are willing to suffer pain for Brexit. Ask someone on the minimum wage if they are happy to suffer for it
Disgraced Minister Liam Fox wanks to this idea
You forgot to add she triggered it without a plan then called an election that wasted 6 weeks
Literally all of that is irrelevant to what you said originally, though.
It's also not what you said, this is what you said, because I feel you need a refresher as you seem to have forgotten.
I'll ask once more - what makes you, or ... your Irish friends, whatever, believe that the whole of Ireland will probably be better off for it?
Come on son, this is beneath even your low threshold of understanding.
Do you honestly think that the majority of people who voted, either way, did so on a whim, that if the sun is shinning next week, I'll vote the opposite way? No of course not, but you believe those voting leave did, those voting remain, stood solid and knowledgeable and would vote the same way again and again, and again, until everyone shared their views.
Keep asking until you get the answer you want, its pathetic.
Millions of pounds were spent on informing both sides and yes there was 'truths and lies' sprinkled evenly I would say over both camps, as with most political events, as happened when back in the day we thought we were voting for a common market and got instead on a destination to a new state.
And yes I do believe leave would win again, by and even greater majority, but they won the first one and that's what matters.
Because the Irish people themselves will have decided, that's why it would be better off, its not rocket science, its really isn't you know!
You forgot to add she triggered an election that wasted 6 weeks after claiming she wouldn't call an election because it would waste time.
Still I'm sure Leadsom, Boris or Gove would have somehow done even worse
I think its the UK finest option of the lot. My concern on this course of action would be that it will rely heavily on the unpredictable Trump whom, time and time again, had shown that he will always put America first. It would also mean that the UK will have to revamp its standards and work practices to remain competitive in this new world. That would probably mean throwing worker rights out of the window and settling for the US 'standards' regarding 'food' etc. The UK will also have to settle for a CETA type of deal too.
Ironic levels of condescension and rudeness coming from the guy who keeps insisting other people speak to him more politely. Perhaps it would be a jab that could hit home if you actually showed even a glimmer of intelligence behind your Daily Mail/Al The Pub Landlord level posturing.
If you had the slightest comprehension of political polling, you'd know that yes a large proportion of people can and often do change their votes based on a range of things including the very latest news coverage, headline issues from that week and sometimes little more than what the last person they talked to said to them. You can also radically change the votes of a lot of people simply by the wording of the question posed.
No, what is pathetic is constantly rallying around a position of 'the will of the people is all that matters!' and then refusing to allow those same people to express their views again even in the face of a constantly changing situation and vast amounts of new data.
No, the lies were not 'sprinkled evenly'. Many of the things your Leave friends decried as lies and 'project fear' have in reality proven to be exactly how events are playing out. They are in no way comparable to a campaign that ran on 'we'll certainly stay in the common market!', 'Europe will be falling over itself to give us a great deal!' and of course everyones personal favourite '£350m a week for the NHS!'.
But of course you think the first one is all that matters, you won on a platform of nationalism, xenophobia and rank dishonesty and now you're too scared to face the consequences that a second referendum would hammer home.
The longer she can string this out the better it is for her.
Not majority but given the small margins in the vote, certainly wouldn't surprise me if a 1/5 of voters did so on a whim. That would have had a major impact on the overall referendum. Again given the small margins, the will of the people argument isn't a great one. I certainly would never convict a man of guilt if I was about 52% sure.
You can say the majority of the people voted leave and that's why it should happen. But there's no full will of the people, we are pretty divided down the middle.
Yep, nothing says 'Bright new future for Britain!' more than an issue which splits the country almost exactly down the middle and leaves both halves increasingly isolated from the other.
Depends what you mean by the they/we? The Irish State is already a member of the EU and will have voted to stay in yes, as far as we know the majority in the north voted the same way so 'ipso facto', the Island of Ireland has a majority in favour of being part of the EU.
So the question now is not about Brexit as such, which has been the catalyst, its about how can the majority of people on the Island of Ireland achieve their collective majority wish to be part of the EU?
I don't know how that would go, but it would be up to Dublin and Belfast to sort it out between them, then it would be up to Britain and/or the EU, to risk saying No!
You're right, you don't, none of us do. So feck knows how you/your friends can claim we'd probably be better off sorting it out ourselves, or how that could ever even conceivably happen.
There's also arguably the most important point here, Sinn Fein and the DUP hate Fianna Gael/Fail, and vice versa. Imagine them negotiating a border or unified Ireland or whatnot, imagine our countries voting on them? It'd be nothing short of a disaster.
This is Britain's mess and they need to fix it.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, is the red mist clearing now?
Come on mate just listen to yourself... are you stamping your feet and pulling faces as well... going to get us 'leavers' at playtime... eh?
Typical playschool level nonsense. It's like trying to have a serious debate with a toddler.
Talking to Brexiters is like talking to a naughty child. You warn them not to do something but do they listen. Then they start showing off, eventually they learn the hard way but it could have all been avoided.
This has been a long-term goal of the Tory far right. Although quite how they sell this idea when their good friend Donald spent a large part of his election campaign slagging off NAFTA and pinning it on Clinton, I'm not sure.
Simple. The Anglosphere, that's how they sell it.
Oh dear, another piss poor self-serving and loaded analogy. Just what the thread needed.
The EU changes its rules all the time when it wants to, if it doesn't want to for Ireland's sake then it doesn't have to but that is still a choice.
Which rule should the EU change exactly? It's not a rule that is causing problem here.
The overall basis for my friends thinking seems to be two fold; one they think without a third party (some say bogeymen) to hide behind and hence to blame when things do/or don't work out, both the North and South would have to face their respective citizens head-on.
They also seem to think,(but there is less of a consensus among my friends on this) that without subsidies (some of my friends refer to these as handouts... always, causes an argument that one!), be it from Britain and/or the EU the whole of Ireland would have to face up to the fact that its major export is Irish men and women, it would seem they believe the Island overall still suffers from excess migration, not as bad as it was, but still puts its future in doubt, birth rates etc.... who knows they might welcome some of Mrs Merkel's immigrants?
I can't argue with you on that one, I don't personally know however, despite the optimism of some of my friends, there are others that would definitely agree with that sentiment.
My friends would agree the whole issue of a divided Island of Ireland is Britain's fault, going right back to the importing of 1000 Scottish Crofters and their families, the Pail etc; however they believe the time has come for the Irish to tell everyone else to feck off and we will sort it ourselves... probably a pipe dream?
The majority of people just want to get on with it, which is what we should be doing.
Well we think all remainers are ignorant of what is right for the country. Thank God for democracy. You lost, so get over it.
Ireland has returned to net immigration for the first time since the recession and that will likely only grow as the recovery continues. Considering the UK is also our biggest emigration destination by far then it'll get even lower after Brexit, although I can definitely see the UK striking a deal for Irish citizens because we do provide a lot of staff to the NHS! We also have the highest birth rates in Europe. So, your friends are wrong there.
Ireland will not tell the EU to "feck off". We like the EU, we've become an incredibly prosperous country in the EU. We rely on the EU for a lot of things - education, jobs, educated expats. Actually all that applies to Britain, too, apart from the liking the EU part. We will put the EU first and the UK (including NI) second, always, because we're not idiots (mostly).
I couldn't have put it better myself... oh I just did!
What do you expect the EU to do to create a functioning open border between themselves and the UK in this situation given what the UK actually wants from brexit?
As far as I can see you're not asking them to change a rule, you're askìng them to change how borders fundamentally work. Which from Ireland's point of view makes the UK the one causing the problem, not the EU.
I didn't lose anything but as you "won" presumably those who voted remain "won" as well unless you're planning to divide the country into two, the problem is nobody knows what they were lucky enough to win
Get on with what exactly? If it's shown that 'getting on with it' is going to result in a recession, then you still think you have a majority in favour?
Get on with what? That's the issue - people were not voting for Party A with its manifesto or Party B with its slightly different manifesto. We know what the status quo is but,15 months on, no one has been able to demonstrate what Brexit actually involves.
Thanks, I will tell them that, but before we start the drinking sessions!
Yes, that's quite clear from the vote, even my two friends from the north would agree with that, its seems its just this business of how to get the whole of the Island of Ireland into the EU. without the pesky British?
Who knows, play your cards right and Brexit could be key that undoes the lock? Or the sword that slices through the Gordian Knot!
Somehow I don't think so, the remoaners are becoming like my missus, keep nagging and nagging... wait till they start the ..'I've a got a headache.. routine!
So why is the child naughty if you think nobody knows?
There's no evidence to suggest that leaving the EU will end in recession. Recessions are a part of life, and the economical cycle. If you want to blame the next one on brexit, fine.
Reading today that the Civil Service are planning for No Deal, not because that will necessarily happen yet because it makes sense in light of the current impasse. They have recruited thousands of staff to enable the UK to move forward quickly if this occurs.
They are either too blind to see that the EU is heading towards a United States of Europe, or they want it. How in the world they can't understand the goals and visions of the EU, is amazing to me.
If the Uk leaves the EU without a deal then the Uk will be in recession but the rest of Europe won't be - there's the difference, if there's a worldwide recession it applies to everyone, not just one country. As I said the only way to prove we were right is for the Uk to fall out of the EU and the obvious consequences to happen, the remainers don't want that to happen but the leavers won't listen
I suspect the majority of remoaners probably do want that outcome, they just pretend to 'not see'
What they don't seem to grasp is that unless Britain dumps the pound Sterling and becomes part of the euro-zone countries (24 countries) within the EU, if we stay in the club we will constantly go where we are pushed inside the EU, perpetual second division status, no chance of promotion.
I think there are a small group of other countries within the EU, Denmark's one, who still retain their own currency outside the Euro zone, but the size of their markets are low compared to Britain's.
If we wanted to be a lead player in the EU we should have dumped the pound and become part of the euro-zone, years ago, but now the euro takes its value from the German economy's influence in the EU, all EU economic decisions in the future will be taken on how it affects the euro, not the pound, so we are sat waiting for the scraps from the table. Macron in France is desperate for further integration because he has to make the French economy work properly and he needs Mrs Merkel's help.
The majority of people in this country might want to be part of a common market yes, but not on track towards a super state, unfortunately the EU won't accept that premise, so its a parting of the waves. Amicably if possible, but that doesn't look on now, so lets get out now, and no tipping the waiter!