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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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A friend of mine works in a factory where 90% of the labour is Polish - and guess what, the only issues they have with attendance, discipline, quality control etc all stem from English agency workers.

A few years back I was waiting for a career job to come through, and did a month in a warehouse to bring in some extra cash. It was exactly like you describe here. The Polish (of all ages) just turned up and got on with the job, exactly the same with the 40-50+ year old English workers who were on permanent contracts, but the English agency workers were just ridiculous. Lads in their late teens, early twenties who were largely there because the job centre said they had to get a job. It was like watching a group of toddlers, they'd spend as much time as possible slacking off and talking shit, they were constantly fecking around causing damage with idiotic pranks and offending people by acting like cocks every time they had to interact with someone outside their little cliques. They'd inevitably get fired within a couple of weeks, or just not bother coming back after a few days. You'd hear them talking on lunchbreaks about how shit it was, and how they were only there because they were being forced to be.

Completely fecking pathetic. If the eastern Europeans have to go home (or choose to) then British factories and warehouses are fecked.
 
Do you think that leaving the EU will suddenly cause a seismic shift in our politicians' thinking and get them to develop the rest of the UK?

Yes exactly that, there will be no EU to hide behind, they will have to face the voters every five years with no one to blame only ourselves!

Oh yes and with a much more self aware public, due entirely to Brexit!
 
Problem is the UK can't afford to do this. That's also why there is no serious proposal to transform the UK into one.

There's a reason all the tax haven's in the world are small countries and it's not hard to spot.
That's irrelevant, its doing better than any other southern eu country because of it and lets face it, devilish was the first person to complain when the uk hinted at offering low corp tax after brexit.


"Several EU countries say such a system damages their budgets and reveals a weakness in the EU, which allows the 28 member states sovereign rights over their taxation.

According to a report commissioned by Green MEPs in the European Parliament, Malta helped multinationals avoid paying €14bn (£12bn;$15.6bn) in taxes between 2012 and 2015, which would have gone to other EU countries."
 
That's irrelevant, its doing better than any other southern eu country because of it and lets face it, devilish was the first person to complain when the uk hinted at offering low corp tax after brexit.


"Several EU countries say such a system damages their budgets and reveals a weakness in the EU, which allows the 28 member states sovereign rights over their taxation.

According to a report commissioned by Green MEPs in the European Parliament, Malta helped multinationals avoid paying €14bn (£12bn;$15.6bn) in taxes between 2012 and 2015, which would have gone to other EU countries."

That is true to a degree. Only worked because they are in the EU and give access to the EU market though.

Also, he'S right about Italy and certainly Greece. The EU is not responsible for their failures.
 
Yes cos its a tax haven. 5% corporation tax pfff. Wait till the uk becomes one and prospers in the same way, then you can sing its praises from the roof tops.

Well according to Oxfam we offer the 4th best rates in corporate tax after Belgium, Holland and Cyprus. If we're a tax haven (which we aren't) then we're in good company.

Its down on the Maltese voting wisely while trying to keep the clowns as far away as possible from parliament. We've quite versed and involved into politics. Last GE we had a 92% turnout. There again, voters in Malta are encouraged to vote. In fact voting is done on weekends (which makes it easier for the working class to vote) and every vote count irrespective of region one lives in.

Our own version of UKIP (ie its leader is close friend to your Nigel) got a staggering 0.07% of votes while the anti immigration party got 0.34% of the votes.
 
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That's irrelevant, its doing better than any other southern eu country because of it and lets face it, devilish was the first person to complain when the uk hinted at offering low corp tax after brexit.


"Several EU countries say such a system damages their budgets and reveals a weakness in the EU, which allows the 28 member states sovereign rights over their taxation.

According to a report commissioned by Green MEPs in the European Parliament, Malta helped multinationals avoid paying €14bn (£12bn;$15.6bn) in taxes between 2012 and 2015, which would have gone to other EU countries."

In isolation you are right without their tax system they would be in trouble but at the same time if you read between the lines that money is probably supposed to mainly go to France and Germany and truth be told neither country desperately need that money, in the case of France we waste way more than that.
 
A few years back I was waiting for a career job to come through, and did a month in a warehouse to bring in some extra cash. It was exactly like you describe here. The Polish (of all ages) just turned up and got on with the job, exactly the same with the 40-50+ year old English workers who were on permanent contracts, but the English agency workers were just ridiculous. Lads in their late teens, early twenties who were largely there because the job centre said they had to get a job. It was like watching a group of toddlers, they'd spend as much time as possible slacking off and talking shit, they were constantly fecking around causing damage with idiotic pranks and offending people by acting like cocks every time they had to interact with someone outside their little cliques. They'd inevitably get fired within a couple of weeks, or just not bother coming back after a few days. You'd hear them talking on lunchbreaks about how shit it was, and how they were only there because they were being forced to be.

Completely fecking pathetic. If the eastern Europeans have to go home (or choose to) then British factories and warehouses are fecked.

It's pretty much the same here in Norway (though we are not in the EU on paper we might as well be). I work in a high school and we have this cooperation program with social services for students who have dropped out and the goal is too either have them finish school or get them into the workforce. One of my colleagues had one of these classes and he said it was super frustrating because what business would hire a 20 year old dropout with no experience when you could hire an experienced/educated pole.

On one hand we would be well and truly fecked without work immigration since we would have a severe lack of carpenters, plumbers etc, but on the other hand these workers makes it incredibly hard for these dropout kids to get a job. Another issue is that certain staffing firms and agencies severely underpays them and gives them contracts that don't remotely follow national tariffs/laws.
 
On one hand we would be well and truly fecked without work immigration since we would have a severe lack of carpenters, plumbers etc, but on the other hand these workers makes it incredibly hard for these dropout kids to get a job. Another issue is that certain staffing firms and agencies severely underpays them and gives them contracts that don't remotely follow national tariffs/laws.

I wouldn't hire them unless I had absolutely zero choice. At a rough estimate, I'd say they were delivering a productivity level of about 20-30% in contrast to the Polish and older English workers, while fostering a toxic environment and hugely increasing the likelihood of unnecessary damages, staff injuries and product complaints.

I'm all in favour of developing programs that forces them into growing the feck up and learning how to act like an adult worker instead of a pampered child, but without that progression I can't see why it would be in any employer's interest to hire them at all, let alone offer them above minimum wage (I do take your point about unscrupulous employers offering illegal contracts, but to be honest if that happened in England the 'workers' would almost certainly report them or refuse to do the work).
 
You see you can't argue this point with a Brexiter because not one of them admits to being racist or xenophobic, amazing really . Of course they make a few insinuations that they're stealing all the jobs, there are loads of criminals, refugees, dole scroungers etc etc. Another amazing stat that no white Englishman has ever committed a crime or scrounged off the dole.

Surely a man with your apparent intellect does not class all Brexiteers like this, seriously? Two of the most rampant racists I've ever met are remainers!
This is a none argument and not worthy of you, one of the reasons we are were we are is because in the past whenever anyone mentioned some controls on immigration, they were immediately branded racist etc.

If you want to look at what our fathers did, the time from WW2 till the 70s was a disaster for the UK, they were completely under the influence of the USA and used as a puppet, they made mistake after mistake and sunk from being the World no.1 to a country scrounging around for loans to survive and people seem to want to go back to that

Yes they did, they made the mistake of wanting to do something to ease the post war burden on their children and they agreed with the USA something called the Marshall Plan, incidentally its only two or three years back when the last instalment was paid back to the USA on the that plan. After Fighting to free Europe (twice, with the aid of the USA) with the country on its knees with food and clothing and many other things on ration, on reflection it was probably their greatest mistake, coming to the aid of Europe, not only did it cost money, it cost lives, perhaps we should have stayed safe Paul, behind the Channel and just asked the USA to protect us with a ring of steel and to help keep the Atlantic sea lanes open and leave Europe to its fate?

Post war Britain was a grim place, I was a youngster growing up then, the Governments of the day made lots of mistakes, Labour and Tory, right up to Thatcher, our economy was a basket case, even after we joined the Common Market. Mrs T finally put an end to it, not the CM, she made war on the Unions, taking on the Miners, destroying homes, villages, and a whole way of life for lots of people. Maggie became top dog and ruled the roost, right through three General Elections and up to (yours and mine favourite) Tony Blair.

Prior to that, Harold Wilson had taken us into the Common Market with a two thirds majority in the first Europe referendum (the one on June 23rd last year was the second) and it had helped to set us on an even keel, but the desire of some member states to enlarge the CM and to turn it into the EEC, began, it became a 'Trojan Horse', designed to lead towards a single state. The 'gravy train' was really working full pelt by now and lots of people (yours truly amongst them) got suckered into believing the EU propaganda, even though on the ground, via some ludicrous EU projects, I and many others could see it was all 'smoke and mirrors'. At a crucial stage, Mrs T was 'blindsided' by Heseltine and Clarke in particular as far as Europe was concerned and completely took her eye off the ball when the Falklands War exploded. Under this distraction Maggie allowed Britain to signup to treaty after treaty that led us to where we are now. At no time were the British public ever consulted directly about the direction of travel, until Brexit.

Cameron was an unlikely hero, because it was him, not Farage, who granted the referendum, of course he and much of our elite politicans had no idea whatsoever of the genie within the bottle, the rest as they say is history.
 
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I wouldn't hire them unless I had absolutely zero choice. At a rough estimate, I'd say they were delivering a productivity level of about 20-30% in contrast to the Polish and older English workers, while fostering a toxic environment and hugely increasing the likelihood of unnecessary damages, staff injuries and product complaints.

I'm all in favour of developing programs that forces them into growing the feck up and learning how to act like an adult worker instead of a pampered child, but without that progression I can't see why it would be in any employer's interest to hire them at all, let alone offer them above minimum wage (I do take your point about unscrupulous employers offering illegal contracts, but to be honest if that happened in England the 'workers' would almost certainly report them or refuse to do the work).

Yeah, it's not so much of a work immigration discussion as it is "what the feck do we do with these kids" discussion, but it's actually starting to become a really big problem. The true winners though are the businesses, since they have a huge supply of reliable (and often cheap) labor and don't have to go through the process of training them or risking hiring some useless weapon that does not do their job.
 
That is true to a degree. Only worked because they are in the EU and give access to the EU market though.

Also, he'S right about Italy and certainly Greece. The EU is not responsible for their failures.
:wenger:

Honestly this is just as bad as the pro leaver stuff.
 
Surely a man with your apparent intellect does not class all Brexiteers like this, seriously? Two of the most rampant racists I've ever met are remainers!
This is a none argument and not worthy of you, one of the reasons we are were we are is because in the past whenever anyone mentioned some controls on immigration, they were immediately branded racist etc.



Yes they did, they made the mistake of wanting to do something to ease the post war burden on their children and they agreed with the USA something called the Marshall Plan, incidentally its only two or three years back when the last instalment was paid back to the USA on the that plan. After Fighting to free Europe (twice, with the aid of the USA) with the country on its knees with food and clothing and many other things on ration, on reflection it was probably their greatest mistake, coming to the aid of Europe, not only did it cost money, it cost lives, perhaps we should have stayed safe Paul, behind the Channel and just asked the USA to protect us with a ring of steel and to help keep the Atlantic sea lanes open and leave Europe to its fate?

Post war Britain was a grim place, I was a youngster growing up then, the Governments of the day made lots of mistakes, Labour and Tory, right up to Thatcher, our economy was a basket case, even after we joined the Common Market. Mrs T finally put an end to it, not the CM, she made war on the Unions, taking on the Miners, destroying homes, villages, and a whole way of life for lots of people. Maggie became top dog and ruled the roost, right through three General Elections and up to (yours and mine favourite) Tony Blair.

Prior to that, Harold Wilson had taken us into the Common Market with a two thirds majority in the first Europe referendum (the one on June 23rd last year was the second) and it had helped to set us on an even keel, but the desire of some member states to enlarge the CM and to turn it into the EEC, began, it became a 'Trojan Horse', designed to lead towards a single state. The 'gravy train' was really working full pelt by now and lots of people (yours truly amongst them) got suckered into believing the EU propaganda, even though on the ground, via some ludicrous EU projects, I and many others could see it was all 'smoke and mirrors'. At a crucial stage, Mrs T was 'blindsided' by Heseltine and Clarke in particular as far as Europe was concerned and completely took her eye off the ball when the Falklands War exploded. Under this distraction Maggie allowed Britain to signup to treaty after treat that led us to where we are now. At no time were the British public ever consulted directly about the direction of travel, until Brexit.

Cameron was an unlikely hero, because it was him, not Farage, who granted the referendum, of course he and much of our elite politicans had no idea whatsoever of the genie within the bottle, the rest as they say is history.

I didn't say all Brexiters were racist or xenophobes but to pretend that this is not one of the major factors behind Brexit, then another lie comes out -apparently there are none at all.
The USA would have stayed out of the war if they could have but they were enticed in. The price of their help was much much more than the Marshall Plan, the USA become number 1 and the demise of the British empire was sealed, the rot having already set in after WW1.

The UK took time after they joined the EEC to get their house in order, it wouldn't happen overnight just like the demise forecast by withdrawing from the EU did not happen overnight , it will over time.

The genie escaped from the bottle and no doubt the Uk will spend many a year trying to put it back in again.
 
That's irrelevant, its doing better than any other southern eu country because of it and lets face it, devilish was the first person to complain when the uk hinted at offering low corp tax after brexit.

Did I?

I only said that

a- Malta is no tax haven. According to Oxfam there are at least 3 other countries (Cyprus, Holland and Belgium) who offer better corporate rates then we do.
b- There's a reason why only small countries become tax havens. Such model can sustain small economies, it certainly can't sustain something as massive as the UK.
c- Malta's thriving financial services business rely on the single market. The UK is leaving Europe.

Like any other EU country, Malta has to stay in line with EU rules else we lose access to the single market. The EU is quite strict regarding tax havens.
 
then another lie comes out -apparently there are none at all.

Where have you heard this?
In 17.4 m people, I can guarantee there will be racists, homophobes, gays, lesbians, people of colour, white supremacist, black supremacists, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, even Liverpool and Man City supporters and you know what Paul, in the ranks of those voting remain there will also be all the above.

It a ludicrous argument and always has been and ranks up there with £350m for the NHS

Neither remainers' or leavers' have God on their side

The USA would have stayed out of the war if they could have but they were enticed in

Yes of course they would, but they demanded and got their pound of flesh. The end for Britain was the Suez crisis in the 50's when Anthony Eden sent troops to Eygpt try to secure the Canal from Colonel Nasser and the USA made him bring them home again, that was the end of Empire really, although we struggled on for years in the far flung corners, raising and lowering the flag each day.

The first prime British prime minister, (some would say the only PM to effectively tell the Americans to feck off) was Harold Wilson when he refused to get British troops involved in Vietnam. But then all of a sudden he mysteriously retired as PM and leader of the Labour party... were the CIA involved? Another conspiracy theory to chew on!
 
Where have you heard this?
In 17.4 m people, I can guarantee there will be racists, homophobes, gays, lesbians, people of colour, white supremacist, black supremacists, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, even Liverpool and Man City supporters and you know what Paul, in the ranks of those voting remain there will also be all the above.

It a ludicrous argument and always has been and ranks up there with £350m for the NHS

Neither remainers' or leavers' have God on their side



Yes of course they would, but they demanded and got their pound of flesh. The end for Britain was the Suez crisis in the 50's when Anthony Eden sent troops to Eygpt try to secure the Canal from Colonel Nasser and the USA made him bring them home again, that was the end of Empire really, although we struggled on for years in the far flung corners, raising and lowering the flag each day.

The first prime British prime minister, (some would say the only PM to effectively tell the Americans to feck off) was Harold Wilson when he refused to get British troops involved in Vietnam. But then all of a sudden he mysteriously retired as PM and leader of the Labour party... were the CIA involved? Another conspiracy theory to chew on!

Do you know there is not one racist or xenophobe on here, not one, and they get very touchy when it is suggested
Next you're going to tell me Farage, your hero, is not a racist or a xenophobe. If he's your hero does that mean you only share some of his views.
I know brexiters are stupid but please don't try to think that the rest of us are too.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol....-No-blacks.-No-Irish-is-now-Ukip-policy.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ments-racism-sexism-immigration-a7118801.html

There are hundreds more examples . this person is a vile sorry excuse for a human being
 
Where have you heard this?
In 17.4 m people, I can guarantee there will be racists, homophobes, gays, lesbians, people of colour, white supremacist, black supremacists, Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims, even Liverpool and Man City supporters and you know what Paul, in the ranks of those voting remain there will also be all the above.

It a ludicrous argument and always has been and ranks up there with £350m for the NHS

Neither remainers' or leavers' have God on their side



Yes of course they would, but they demanded and got their pound of flesh. The end for Britain was the Suez crisis in the 50's when Anthony Eden sent troops to Eygpt try to secure the Canal from Colonel Nasser and the USA made him bring them home again, that was the end of Empire really, although we struggled on for years in the far flung corners, raising and lowering the flag each day.

The first prime British prime minister, (some would say the only PM to effectively tell the Americans to feck off) was Harold Wilson when he refused to get British troops involved in Vietnam. But then all of a sudden he mysteriously retired as PM and leader of the Labour party... were the CIA involved? Another conspiracy theory to chew on!

Wilson stepped down several years after the Vietnam war had ended (in 1976).
 
Why? Both Greece and Italy have been a total mess politically and economically since at least the war. Blaming the EU for them seems like a stretch.
The forced austerity on Greece after the crisis.

Mark Blyth has talked at length on this stuff



 
And not very long before joining the EU they were a military junta. Yes the EU forced austerity on Greece, but that was a reaction to Greece being a massive financial mess of its own creation.
Er yeah that not really true but even if it was the reaction by the EU was never going to work, all it did was destroy people lives.
 
In fairness I don't about the Italian political scene but the Greeks were taken part by the EU.

As said, I have no idea about Greece although tbf I do remember a case were a particular Greek island caught the headlines for having a record number of 'blind' people on benefits. However I assure you, the Italian political scene is in shambles. They make the likes of Boris and Nigel look like Suleiman the Magnificent or Alexander the Great on steriods.

Also, I've never seen a country which is so anti business then Italy. Anything from setting up a business to employing people is submerged by redtape and nepotism. Not to forget that 'slight' problem in the South called Mafia/ndagreta which has a finger in every frigging pie
 
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Er yeah that not really true but even if it was the reaction by the EU was never going to work, all it did was destroy people lives.

Well prior to the crisis, how did the EU ruin the Greek economy, and why was Greece in such a uniquely bad position that other countries were not?
 
He’s an absolute embarrassment. He’s appealing to his base. I’m certain companies like Cambridge Analytica are behind this current strawman demonisation approach to politics.

In my opinion, the EU should refuse to negotiate any further until this guy is sacked.
 
b- There's a reason why only small countries become tax havens. Such model can sustain small economies, it certainly can't sustain something as massive as the UK.
There are states in the US that are tax havens, its not just islands.
 
I never said islands. I am saying small economies (countries or states)

True. You can only afford to become a tax haven if by doing so, you are not losing a considerable amount of income. If you do and attract labour extensive businesses contributing to your tax income, you have won. Countries already already having a developed economy can’t afford to do the same.
 
The other thing about tax havens is that the WTO doesn't like them very much.

In fact its only 12 months ago Argentina won a landmark ruling that, despite WTO rules saying members cannot sanction each other, it was legal for them to sanction panama precisely because of the tax haven status.

But yes, lets have more brexit joined up thinking where the UK does whatever it wants with absolutely no consequences.

Feck me. become a tax haven we incite a trade war, and as we only produce half the food we need to keep ourselves alive, its one we will lose.
 
In my opinion, the EU should refuse to negotiate any further until this guy is sacked.

I think this is just internal Conservative party politics and the price he has to pay to keep off the pack baying for his blood in what has been a well-organised campaign against him. Compared to Johnson, Fox, Gove and Davis, he is relatively sane.
 
I think this is just internal Conservative party politics and the price he has to pay to keep off the pack baying for his blood in what has been a well-organised campaign against him. Compared to Johnson, Fox, Gove and Davis, he is relatively sane.

What’s the name of that gobshit crazy 1800‘s landlord again who seems so massively popular with the Tories?
 
I think this is just internal Conservative party politics and the price he has to pay to keep off the pack baying for his blood in what has been a well-organised campaign against him. Compared to Johnson, Fox, Gove and Davis, he is relatively sane.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement for Hammond really, but yeah, you're right.
 
My culture is somehow different to yours. We’re brought up in a society were criticism is not only common but it’s expected. People who love you will analyse you, they will find weaknesses in you (performance, character traits etc) and at least try and help you out by highlighting them up. That’s why I tend to go very tough in everything that I love (United, the UK etc). If you’re well versed in Italian culture you’ll understand that perfectly.

I share Guy verhofstadt’s idea of a reformed Europe although I don’t agree with his method of doing it. He believes that political parties across all Europe will put their own interest aside in the name of something bigger. I don't share his optimism on that.

In my opinion, we need a smaller and leaner EU with members having a similar economy, work ethic and aims. The UK is not the only one cherry picking in the EU and as Tusk once said some countries use the EU as a supermarket while shying away from the nasty parts.

Such reformed EU will be better faster to act in this changing world and easier to reform. Once the EU had reformed itself then by all means, the doors should open agian towards countries who are geniunely equipped to join the union as partners (ie rights and obligations) without the need of impacting too much other member states.

So while people like Guy are terrified of Grexit, Poleexit etc. I see such purge as a necessary step for the project

I Completely understand your point...for a corporativism point of view. Just make a small point that the word Purge is quite disgusting when you are speaking of the lives of millions.

Said that and saying that I sort of understand your point of view, that is why I don't like EU more than for what it is a cold-hearted economic association

The hypocrisy of european values, and all united dancing in circles is BS, and that is why I would not like to be in this association. Is nice when everything goes alright and we are all european, Oh look the southern states, they are our friends now that we can sell them our most advance stuff and we can use their cheap labour and decent qualified (education paid with southern states taxes). We can go to their countries, buy a second residence for peanuts for our standards and raise the fecking housing market, party and puke everywhere and why not, retire there and drain the health care system (there are more British in Spain than the other way around). All happy happy

But when things goes south (pun intended), Oh but your are Greek, o but you are from the PIGS, etc... We don't want your cheap labour anymore now, your health care system is fecked up because you have 1 million pensioners from our countries? your problem, we were part of the problem that cause the price increase in your housing market making a bubble and it bursted and that shakened your economic system? your problem. And you know what? lets make a purge, we don't need you anymore. Oh, but european values all the way.