"Blackface" Discussion

[muller]

I think ignorance has too bad a connotation.

There is nothing wrong with being ignorant as long as you are not willing to stay ignorant, that's the difference.

Kids are ignorant, you as a parent are navigating their perspective with every interaction you have with them, this is just part of a wider societal perspective.

Agree here, to an extent. But would you say at some point we are teaching racism? I disagree with teaching religion to children who are too young to understand what it is - it's almost along those lines (but not as heavily!). You're teaching them what they should think.

I always encourage my kids to treat everyone the same - when my 3 year old asked me about a woman in a wheelchair I said that whilst he was lucky that his legs might work better than hers, she might be lucky because she's much better at maths, or can write amazing stories. He then sat in the car and cried because he was jealous she was better at sums than he was.

I wonder what the outcome would be if nobody was ever allowed to speak about racism, religion, sexism etc in or around children - whether kids themselves would find it and "invent" it the way our ancestors did - given the change of how the world works now. Totally unrealistic with the world we are in now though - still so horrible on and under the surface.

Not to say I think some things should be swept under the rug in its entirety of course.

 

[villain]

Agree here, to an extent. But would you say at some point we are teaching racism? I disagree with teaching religion to children who are too young to understand what it is - it's almost along those lines (but not as heavily!). You're teaching them what they should think.

I always encourage my kids to treat everyone the same - when my 3 year old asked me about a woman in a wheelchair I said that whilst he was lucky that his legs might work better than hers, she might be lucky because she's much better at maths, or can write amazing stories. He then sat in the car and cried because he was jealous she was better at sums than he was.

I wonder what the outcome would be if nobody was ever allowed to speak about racism, religion, sexism etc in or around children - whether kids themselves would find it and "invent" it the way our ancestors did - given the change of how the world works now. Totally unrealistic with the world we are in now though - still so horrible on and under the surface.

Not to say I think some things should be swept under the rug in its entirety of course.

We can guess what the outcome would be if we allowed to speak about things like religion, racism, sexism etc - these issues wouldn’t disappear. They would become taboo and would further encourage oppression based on whatever identity.
Because that’s similar to what used to happen in the past.

People shy away because it can be uncomfortable, but being uncomfortable is a necessary part of unlearning oppressive behaviours.

You’re doing the right thing by teaching them to treat everyone the same even when they are different. Any other questions you can tackle as they come, but not talking about it is definitely the wrong way to go about things.
But I don’t have kids, so.

 

[Super Hans]

Apparently in Greece blackface isn't a thing. And neither is the highly questionable impersonation of a blind person walking. Greek Stars in their Eyes.

 

[4bars]

Apparently in Greece blackface isn't a thing. And neither is the highly questionable impersonation of a blind person walking. Greek Stars in their Eyes.

I think blackfacing (*correct me if I am wrong, people, as I am new to the term) is insulting as a collective, not as individual. You can't impersonate Stevie Wonder as a white like you can't impersonate pamela anderson as brunette and so on

 

[lsd]

I think blackfacing (*correct me if I am wrong, people, as I am new to the term) is insulting as a collective, not as individual. You can't impersonate Stevie Wonder as a white like you can't impersonate pamela anderson as brunette and so on

Then you don't impersonate Stevie Wonder of you can't do it the way you are . There's no excuse to do blackface

 

[fishfingers15]

If you want to be authentic about impersonating Stevie Wonder, you'd have to go blind.

 

[Verminator]

If you want to be authentic about impersonating Stevie Wonder, you'd have to go blind.

Then you're at the mercy of the makeup artist.

 

[Jippy]

Here we go again

 

[entropy]

Just when I thought I was out. They pull me back in.

 

[4bars]

Then you don't impersonate Stevie Wonder of you can't do it the way you are . There's no excuse to do blackface

Well, Then I did not understand what the negative concept of the blackface is. So if one day me and my friends wants to impersonate ghostbusters we can´t if because none of us is black?

I thought blackfacing it was more a generalization and/or why put a blackfaced actor if there was black people to do the acting and/or making that the blackfaced person was represented dumb and inferior

 

[Jippy]

Well, Then I did not understand what the negative concept of the blackface is. So if one day me and my friends wants to impersonate ghostbusters we can´t if because none of us is black?

I thought blackfacing it was more a generalization and/or why put a blackfaced actor if there was black people to do the acting and/or making that the blackfaced person was represented dumb and inferior

Aren't they all white in the original?

 

[Green_Red]

Well, Then I did not understand what the negative concept of the blackface is. So if one day me and my friends wants to impersonate ghostbusters we can´t if because none of us is black?

I thought blackfacing it was more a generalization and/or why put a blackfaced actor if there was black people to do the acting and/or making that the blackfaced person was represented dumb and inferior

But wouldnt wearing a ghostbuster costume be enough of an indication that you were impersonating a ghostbuster?

If I wanted to impersonate Stevie Wonder as a white man I could just wear a glitzy jacket, a pair of sunglasses and copy his manerisms and just sing "Isnt she lovely" if someone asked me who I was supposed to be. Wouldnt that make it obvious?

 

[JustAFan]

Well, Then I did not understand what the negative concept of the blackface is. So if one day me and my friends wants to impersonate ghostbusters we can´t if because none of us is black?

I thought blackfacing it was more a generalization and/or why put a blackfaced actor if there was black people to do the acting and/or making that the blackfaced person was represented dumb and inferior

You can just have four of you dress up in the Ghostbusters suits. people will know who you are impersonating without one of you painting your skin black.

Google will be a great help if you want to understand why blackface is generally a bad idea.

 

[4bars]

Aren't they all white in the original?

The ones that I know are these

But thats not the point. Any movie with a secondary black (racist pun intended)

 

[JustAFan]

Aren't they all white in the original?

No. How can you forget the great Ernie Hudson as Winston?

 

[4bars]

You can just have four of you dress up in the Ghostbusters suits. people will know who you are impersonating without one of you painting your skin black.

Google will be a great help if you want to understand why blackface is generally a bad idea.

I think I understand the origins of blackfacing and its negativity. But I thought it was more a generalization. Not qhen you specifically wants to impersonate some black famous person. Lets say Obama

 

[JustAFan]

I think I understand the origins of blackfacing and its negativity. But I thought it was more a generalization. Not qhen you specifically wants to impersonate some black famous person. Lets say Obama

Well you would still offend quite a few people and probably be called racist. There is very little you can do to not have it look like you have no malice. It's going to look bad, it's going to look racist, best be smart and just avoid it.

 

[4bars]

Well you would still offend quite a few people and probably be called racist. There is very little you can do to not have it look like you have no malice. It's going to look bad, it's going to look racist, best be smart and just avoid it.

Oh, by all means, after this thread, would not occur to me to do it. I am a white male guy, and by extension I do have engraved in me, racism and male chauvinism in my subconscient. Learning to eliminate that is a priority.

Though, as I said in the past, I doubt in Spain I would offend anyone, IMO is something more in US and the anglosphere by extension ( that is why the impersonation of Stevie Wonder in Greece

 

[4bars]

By the way, several towns in Spain blackface one of the 3 wise men everyyear

Apparently there is whiefacing too. I think it was as a matter of protest precisely because of blackfacing.

I went to visit home in Christmas and I saw way less blackfacing an more subsaharian people representing the entourage of the black wise man. Getting there

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Apparently in Greece blackface isn't a thing. And neither is the highly questionable impersonation of a blind person walking. Greek Stars in their Eyes.

How many shades darker are you allowed to go when trying to look like someone?

White guys can do South American with make up.

Light skinned black guys can go darker with make up.

All the way from white to black is clearly off limits. Where's the line?

 

[Jippy]

No. How can you forget the great Ernie Hudson as Winston?

Tbh, must be 20 years since I saw it and I only remember Bill Murray and maybe Sigourney Weaver?

The ones that I know are these

But thats not the point. Any movie with a secondary black (racist pun intended)

Ah, ok. My god that film was yonks ago.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Have a look at Frank Caliendo's Charles Barkley impression:


There's clearly nothing wrong with his make-up as it adds to the act. How can you (as a white preson) ever do an impression of a black person (and vice versa) without painting your face? It's ridiculous.

 

[JustAFan]

Have a look at Frank Caliendo's Charles Barkley impression:


There's clearly nothing wrong with his make-up as it adds to the act. How can you (as a white preson) ever do an impression of a black person (and vice versa) without painting your face? It's ridiculous.

Shaq does ok as Bradshaw without make up.

 

[Silva]

White person doing impression of black person without being racist. Starts at 1:18

 

[Pagh Wraith]

He's just doing voice imitations. Put him in a movie scene or a skit and it wouldn't work without changing his physical appearance. Same as you can't be Donald Trump without the orange skin and the silly wig.

 

[marukomu]

Is fake tan racist?

 

[Green_Red]

White person doing impression of black person without being racist. Starts at 1:18

brilliant impressions

 

[villain]

He's just doing voice imitations. Put him in a movie scene or a skit and it wouldn't work without changing his physical appearance. Same as you can't be Donald Trump without the orange skin and the silly wig.

How about not doing it because black and brown people have been humiliated from it for over a century, and we are not a costume for you to wear?
Or are you so incessant on wearing black face that the humanity of other people doesn’t matter to you?

Secondly, Donald Trump’s orange skin is just that - comically orange due to him enhancing it with spray tan or whatever he does.
His hair is comically whispy, due to him enhancing it with hair spray and most likely surgery.
This isn’t comparable to black people’s skin.
We didn’t enhance ourselves in anyway, it’s not a joke, and it’s not something for you put on as part of a costume - just don’t do it.

You know the history behind black face, choosing to do so after the fact means that you are willingly being insulting and racist.
That’s it.

 

[JPRouve]

Is fake tan racist?

No, but that's still disgraceful.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

What do you think about the Charles Barkley video I posted? @vi1lain

 

[villain]

What do you think about the Charles Barkley video I posted? @vi1lain

I'm not sure why you're asking me questions when you haven't responded to what I said.

edit -

I don't find black face funny, and that video is immature comedy.

 

[JustAFan]

Is fake tan racist?

Fake tan =\= to someone's real skin tone.

 

[Lennon7]

Is fake tan racist?

What?

 

[Pagh Wraith]

I'm not sure why you're asking me questions when you haven't responded to what I said.

edit -

I don't find black face funny, and that video is immature comedy.

Fair enough if it's not your kind of comedy but why is the only thing that you see in the video that they made his face darker?

I see someone who looks and sounds like Charles Barkley and gives a brilliant impression of him. Not for one second does the thought that this could be in any way derogatory to the real person enter my head. I would however take notice if he didn't use make-up to make his face darker as something would seem a bit off. He goes to such lengths to make his impressions as realistic as possible (Caliendo does John Madden and John Gruden among others; and changes his skin tone for those too!) that not accounting for the skin colour when it's such a prominent feature of our physical appearance (given it covers our whole body) seems weird to me. And yes, I understand the historical implications. But you cannot convince me that that this can be equated to these Minstrel Shows when all he does is portray one specific person (which happens to be black) but in no way generalises about black people. Notice how they tried to match Barkley's exact skin colour and didn't use a random shade of black.

FWIW he did his impression with the real Charles Barkley next to him who didn't have a problem with it.

 

[villain]

Fair enough if it's not your kind of comedy but why is the only thing that you see in the video that they made his face darker?

I see someone who looks and sounds like Charles Barkley and gives a brilliant impression of him. Not for one second does the thought that this could be in any way derogatory to the real person enter my head. I would however take notice if he didn't use make-up to make his face darker as something would seem a bit off. He goes to such lengths to make his impressions as realistic as possible (Caliendo does John Madden and John Gruden among others; and changes his skin tone for those too!) that not accounting for the skin colour when it's such a prominent feature of our physical appearance (given it covers our whole body) seems weird to me. And yes, I understand the historical implications. But you cannot convince me that that this can be equated to these Minstrel Shows when all he does is portray one specific person (which happens to be black) but in no way generalises about black people. Notice how they tried to match Barkley's exact skin colour and didn't use a random shade of black.

FWIW he did his impression with the real Charles Barkley next to him who didn't have a problem with it.

I don't think they're particularly good impressive impressions, and without the skin colour it wouldn't be convincing - that to me isn't a good impression.

It's not derogatory to you because you aren't black, so i'm not at all surprised that you see no problem with it, and Barkley himself has some questionable opinions on race so i'm not surprised that he saw no issue with it either.

There's no need to paint your skin as if skin colour is a costume that you can paint on and wash off, when the implications that come with being black can't be washed away in the shower.

Like I said - there's no need for it in 2018.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

I don't think they're particularly good impressive impressions, and without the skin colour it wouldn't be convincing - that to me isn't a good impression.

It's not derogatory to you because you aren't black, so i'm not at all surprised that you see no problem with it, and Barkley himself has some questionable opinions on race so i'm not surprised that he saw no issue with it either.

There's no need to paint your skin as if skin colour is a costume that you can paint on and wash off, when the implications that come with being black can't be washed away in the shower.

Like I said - there's no need for it in 2018.

Hello. I'm trying to get to grips with this - as a white person, it's hard for me. Obviously it's unacceptable and really has no place in our time, but I'm trying to comprehend the kinds of feelings you have about it. When you see blackface, what stirs inside? Is it a feeling of anger? Injustice? Do you feel like it normalises an age where openly mocking black people was fine, and by revisiting it that we're merely laughing off racism?

Only reason I ask about 'feelings' is because I'm trying to imagine if it were the other way around. If whites had been enslaved, then treated as second class citizens for hundreds of years, how I'd feel seeing us as objects of entertainment, of melodramatic stereotypes. It's very difficult to try and comprehend how I'd feel about that because it feels so alien.

In this sense, no white person has a right to say that black people are overreacting to blackface - if not solely on the basis that we've just not got a comprehension of it.

The only thing I can come close to in this regard doesn't really touch it, I'm of Jewish blood. Non practising, anybody would think I'm white. Yeah I have a few of the stereotypical features (think, David Schwimmer, less handsome) and now and again you come across parodies of the 'stereotypical' Jew with the big nose and tight wallet, but really, nothing as pervasive or blatant as blackface.

Sorry for the questions.

 

[villain]

@17 Van der Gouw no worries
I would say that the effect of racism isn’t felt on any isolated singular incident.
What I mean is that, seeing blackface isn’t the singular cause of any change in mood I may feel - but rather the fact that blackface is still *a thing* is added on top as part of a culmination of everything to do with racism.

Ultimately living with racism isn’t about the individual insults or mistreatment you get - it’s a continual reminder that the way you look is enough for someone to treat you differently, and it’s not always a bad thing, but it becomes a burden to carry. I couldn’t tell you the last time I went to a new environment where I wasn’t conscious of my race, and how I would be perceived, even as a child.
I’ve said before that it’s similar to having anxiety 24/7, with no medication help.
Ultimately that becomes traumatic over time, I would say that’s the hardest part to try and get across to someone who doesn’t understand - living as a minority in society is traumatic, and across the spectrum of trauma you have individuals who deny it, others who deal with it, others who can’t handle it etc.

For me personally, I see blackface and I’m disappointed but not surprised. These things don’t anger or hurt me anymore because I’ve become numb to people mocking black people for the way we look, and equally I’ve grown tired of people denying black people the right to be hurt/upset/offended at something, when that something doesn’t affect them.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

@vi1lain Thanks, that makes sense and, shockhorror I hadn't considered that - the concept that rather than the instances of racism being individually traumatic - that the sum of the parts, the culmination as you put it is what affects you over time. Look, I know you don't want my pity (that'd be pretty fecking patronising) - but I will say that it's a damn shame that here in the 21st century, that you've been made to have a constant awareness of your race, furthermore it's pretty sad that people like me (a non-racist white person who considers himself open minded) had absolutely no comprehension that people like you, kind intelligent people, are going through this kind of emotional turmoil pretty much 24/7. That in itself is a travesty, and shows how far we've yet to come.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about this, I was worried after posting that it was kinda rude of me to ask a stranger.

 

[711]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-43081218

 

[villain]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-43081218

Absolutely disgusting.

And this idea that what China is doing in Africa is a positive thing is nothing but propaganda too - some Africans may be too ignorant to realise, but they are exploiting our raw minerals in exchange for basic infrastructure and government contracts and not even employing local people to do the work so they can learn - but rather shipping in their own local tradesmen (at least in Ghana, can’t speak on other countries)

This whole thing is a joke and mockery of black people. Ffs.