Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
4bars said:
At the core it is as in an ideal world shouldn't be borders. But I am not naive

Also, you are wrong in the last part. Now as a resident I have exactly the same rules as a canadian born except voting and in 1 year and half I will be able even to do that

But in essence, is not comparable in the sense that if we consider all Europeans with the same rights, you shouldn't ask for different rules. That is why asking control from other countries of the EU, when had been established that shouldn't be like that, is xenophobic.

As I have been saying, there are several levels of xenophobia. You can even have them with your neighbouring town. I am xenophobic to a certain degree, I am tribal like many other people. The problem is when xenophobia reach high levels of intolerance, and Brexit is in my opinion a result of this
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Unless you never agreed with the new rules introduced without your consent and when given a democratic vote you decline to extend those rights as per the question about your instructions which your politicians asked you for, to steer their actions.

Its not that hard to understand it is just most people in this thread want the opposite and they thrash about trying to justify why their view is more important and wiser, better and more modern. The people who disagree about the priorities are racist xenophobic or stupid.

Here you are a guy living in Canada from Spain thinking your view about a country you will never live in, on a continent you decided to leave, owes you something?

It doesn't and your opinion about ideals without borders are not just naïve but dangerous and ill thought out. There will always be borders of authority. those who think that is backward do so because they have never seen how badly run non democratic countries are. That's why we have so many people trying desperately to get in to democratic countries in the first place.

Its not that I agree with Brexit voters about voting leave because I didn't. It's that I agreed to vote and a I feel bound by that vote even though it went against me. Isn't that democracy? Or are we only allowing certain outcomes because our superiors and there is no end to those in this thread who feel they are just that, want every one else they feel are inferior to vote the way they think benefits them.

They might be right but god does the hypocrisy stick in my craw, half of them voted for Cameron but now they want to run away from the consequences.

We should have a peoples vote on the final outcome...

But hang on it took 40 odd years to get a vote on the current state of the EU which does not resemble the EEC we voted to join.

We didn't know what we were voting on...

If we vote to stay in the EU we don't know what that is going to turn out to be either. It not like voting leave is the first thing we ever did without certainty of outcome because we do that every election if we are honest.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Unless you never agreed with the new rules introduced without your consent and when given a democratic vote you decline to extend those rights as per the question about your instructions which your politicians asked you for, to steer their actions.

Its not that hard to understand it is just most people in this thread want the opposite and they thrash about trying to justify why their view is more important and wiser, better and more modern. The people who disagree about the priorities are racist xenophobic or stupid.
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You agreed because you agreed on some people that you vote that appoint people that make the rules, that is indirect representation, and you agreed in the referendum when you entered in the EU.

Then, what you say in the first paragraph is absolutely compatible with what I have been saying. You decline to extend those rights for xenophobic reasons. Before when you entered de the EU, you were less, now you are more, that is why you are out. For whatever reasons, maybe the EU citizens gave you good reasons maybe not, now you are more xenophobic, because you fear that they will steal your jobs, cripple your housing, NHS and benefit systems, but you are.
Don't Kill Bill said:
Here you are a guy living in Canada from Spain thinking your view about a country you will never live in, on a continent you decided to leave, owes you something?

It doesn't and your opinion about ideals without borders are not just naïve but dangerous and ill thought out. There will always be borders of authority. those who think that is backward do so because they have never seen how badly run non democratic countries are. That's why we have so many people trying desperately to get in to democratic countries in the first place.
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No, here we have a guy that has no fecking clue about my life, because I traveled 60 countries, lived in 8 countries in several continents and guess what, 2 years in UK, so you better assume better mate.

Even so doesn't make me much more or less qualified, because you can learn a lot from other sources.

And the idea of being without borders I discarded myself early on, don't try to bring that up as something I think is possible and put it as my argument to then attack it. This is a straight tactic from Goebbels called Strawman

Though all indicate, that despite more and more countries are being created, more conglomerates too and easier is to travel and work elsewhere, and that is the trend nowadays.

Don't Kill Bill said:
Its not that I agree with Brexit voters about voting leave because I didn't. It's that I agreed to vote and a I feel bound by that vote even though it went against me. Isn't that democracy? Or are we only allowing certain outcomes because our superiors and there is no end to those in this thread who feel they are just that, want every one else they feel are inferior to vote the way they think benefits them.
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No questions on that. I fully agree, I believe in direct voting, so referendums. And I believe that all results have to be respected even if you screw up.

Saying that, not everything is black or white:

- Referendum it was not binding
- I believe after 2 years with more information, having discovered lies (both sides), people is more informed.
- In which conditions you want to leave (or not) should be voted to

Therefore, I believe (absolutely my opinion, not that SHOULD BE because I worth it) a second referendum, with different questions, not only binary, of the final decision. When you vote a government, if you don't agree, you can change your mind if they don't do it as expected, or they lied to you then you vote again.

But again is my opinion. Mainly I support that the results of the first referendum should be respected. A second referendum I think should be considered, but I would understand if not.

But that would not stop giving my opinion of how wrong it is

Don't Kill Bill said:
They might be right but god does the hypocrisy stick in my craw, half of them voted for Cameron but now they want to run away from the consequences.

We should have a peoples vote on the final outcome...

But hang on it took 40 odd years to get a vote on the current state of the EU which does not resemble the EEC we voted to join.

We didn't know what we were voting on...

If we vote to stay in the EU we don't know what that is going to turn out to be either. It not like voting leave is the first thing we ever did without certainty of outcome because we do that every election if we are honest.
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You are right, and now I see in the last paragraph that we say more or less the same. We don't know if the decision is right or not till you get out (that frankly I really want it to happen), but certainly we all know way more now than 2 years ago, actually everybody learnt a lot thanks to brexit. Without it, probably we would never would know.

To finish, I am a catalan independentist and I see many similarities as well that many difference in Brexit, and I learnt several things and confirmed others. Separation might be good for many reasons, but economically, separating yourself from an economic block, will be always a disaster. If you are willing to pay the price to get other things, so be it
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Unless you never agreed with the new rules introduced without your consent and when given a democratic vote you decline to extend those rights as per the question about your instructions which your politicians asked you for, to steer their actions.

Its not that hard to understand it is just most people in this thread want the opposite and they thrash about trying to justify why their view is more important and wiser, better and more modern. The people who disagree about the priorities are racist xenophobic or stupid.

We didn't know what we were voting on...

If we vote to stay in the EU we don't know what that is going to turn out to be either. It not like voting leave is the first thing we ever did without certainty of outcome because we do that every election if we are honest.
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The argument was about voters not wanting "legal" immigrants. By that study Leave voters preferred economic hardship to having immigrants who were legally in the country and not causing economic problems. So the ecomomic bullshit argument goes straight out of the window. What was the other reason?

I moved to France and initially before having french citizenship, I didn't just expect to live here, go on the dole and let the french state look after me, if I did this you could understand objections . But paying my way and not causing a problem to anyone, what objection would the french have - guess what - they don't!

Legal immigrants, people who satisfy the requirements, not only EU citizens but non-EU citizens. These voters who didn't agree with the rules, what was the reason they wouldn't agree with the rules?

So the leavers who knew what they were voting for:
Breaking the Good Friday Agreement
Stopping free movement of goods
Stopping free movement of people including British people.
Stopping co-operation on thousands of projects with EU countries, research, policing and the list is endless
And an endless list of other benefits.

If you vote for remain, surprise, who knows what the future is but it wasn't that.

There are scum like that Robinson character.
There are despicable politicians like Farage, Le Pen, Wilders, Trump, Salvini etc who preach hatred and division.
These people would have no success and be irrelevant if they didn't have an audience.

Then we have apologists and deniers and if we all stick our head in the sand it will all go away.
 
Kentonio said:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...t-deal-so-eu-makes-better-offer-politics-live



For fecks sake..
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You're not really that surprised though, are you?

Did he mention that only a small number of UK transporters will get licences?

Furthermore, which doesn't seem to have been mentioned much, only about 1 in 8 trucks which do the carrying are British. Now if my trucks are going to get stuck in endless queues going to and from the UK - I think I may drop that business and concentrate on the other 27.
 
After listening to Raab and Davis, the only conclusion is that someone is intentionally trying to crash this country.
 
golden_blunder said:
The Russians
And the UK has enough simpletons to go with it
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I'm not comfortable with that, when I look at a party like FN in France, they are the ones who reached to the russians and tried to seduce them in exchange of money, russian leaders are obviously perfectly happy with it but it's too easy to solely blame russia when we kind of know that in reality it's our own politicians and entrepreneurs who are trying to further their personal financial ambitions.
 
JPRouve said:
I'm not comfortable with that, when I look at a party like FN in France, they are the ones who reached to the russians and tried to seduce them in exchange of money, russian leaders are obviously perfectly happy with it but it's too easy to solely blame russia when we kind of know that in reality it's our own politicians and entrepreneurs who are trying to further their personal financial ambitions.
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Yes off course greed comes into it, always will. But look who had been funding brexit. Who has been communicating with the Russians? The Russians have form. Don’t know what their long term plan is but destabilizing Europe and the US is obviously a big part off it.
 
Adisa said:
After listening to Raab and Davis, the only conclusion is that someone is intentionally trying to crash this country.
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golden_blunder said:
The Russians
And the UK has enough simpletons to go with it
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Reminds me of this comment sadly:
I can only say: sorry, folks, but it doesn’t work to declare the government a kind of foreign power, whose rise can’t really be explained. We Germans have tried to pull this nifty trick a few times ourselves. Unfortunately, in a democracy any government that has come into office not through a coup but through free elections is regarded as an expression of the will of the people. That is why we are talking about representative democracy.
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/06/britain-foolishdecline-boris-johnson
We only have ourselves to blame
 
golden_blunder said:
Yes off course greed comes into it, always will. But look who had been funding brexit. Who has been communicating with the Russians? The Russians have form. Don’t know what their long term plan is but destabilizing Europe and the US is obviously a big part off it.
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They do but americans also have their fingerprints on it(Cambridge Analytica for example) and I wouldn't be surprised if chinese are operating quietly too. The way I see it, it's an empire battle and the other sides have decided that divide to conquer was the best way to handle Europe and the EU in particular. My understanding is that fringe political movements and greedy individuals are our weaker links because they seemingly have the habits to not only respond positively to foreign countries solicitations but they also initiate them which made Russia's work fairly easy.
 
sullydnl said:
Yep. The UK voted Tory, Tory, Brexit, Tory in succession. You can't do that and then blame other people when things go to shit.
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It would be more accurate, and in some cases more honest, to say the UK voted Tory, Tory, Brexit, Tory and Labour in succession, as at the last general election both Tory and Labour promised Brexit in their manifestos. I get Labour can say they wanted a different sort of Brexit, but they campaigned on Brexit nonetheless.
 
sullydnl said:
Yep. The UK voted Tory, Tory, Brexit, Tory in succession. You can't do that and then blame other people when things go to shit.
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Blame Liberal Democrats. They propped Tories to power and once they have power they hang on for dear life throwing everything they can at the fire!
 
Watching Question Time last night - I don't really get the arguments against another referendum (other then, it's done so it's done I guess)...

I mean, peoples opinions are allowed to change on matters (that's why we vote for new MP's and Governments after-all) ... I mean, if the vote had been to remain in Europe, would that have been the last ever vote on Europe? probably not... (there'd have been one in 10/20 years or so...) So whilst it has come around a bit quicker then that of course, with the amount of information out there now and the level of understanding on the issue among the general public increased... another vote makes sense.

And if it the vote stays the same, boom you have your answer.... if it changes, then guess what, the majority of the country don't want to leave anymore.
 
She's an idiot for ever getting involved with those lunatics in the first place. Everyone called it as soon as she did that they'd completely feck her over when it came to negotiating for a deal.
 
Presumably she is gambling that she will get enough votes from other parties that she doesnt need the DUP votes?
 
Forgetting May, the way Arlene has played this has been a disaster .
 
GloryHunter07 said:
Presumably she is gambling that she will get enough votes from other parties that she doesnt need the DUP votes?
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I think the maths will come down to who is more unpopular in their own party - May or Corbyn and can she get enough to vote against the whip on the labour benches to offset her own likley defectors
gut feel it will be pretty close
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Watching Question Time last night - I don't really get the arguments against another referendum (other then, it's done so it's done I guess)...

I mean, peoples opinions are allowed to change on matters (that's why we vote for new MP's and Governments after-all) ... I mean, if the vote had been to remain in Europe, would that have been the last ever vote on Europe? probably not... (there'd have been one in 10/20 years or so...) So whilst it has come around a bit quicker then that of course, with the amount of information out there now and the level of understanding on the issue among the general public increased... another vote makes sense.

And if it the vote stays the same, boom you have your answer.... if it changes, then guess what, the majority of the country don't want to leave anymore.
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There's a couple of arguments (And there not great one but)

1)In terms of both parties it could possibly be very damaging to their core support.

2)If there's another referendum then it would mostly likely be a 3 option - Remain, Whatever May gets and A hard Brexit. There's a decent chance that a hard brexit could win and well.....we are all fecked.

3)Why would this new referendum be anymore meaningful than the old one ?

4)It would be the biggest boost to the far right in decades.
 
Didn't know British had a brother in government.
Interesting that both his dad and brother are staunch remainers.
 
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Sweet Square said:
There's a couple of arguments (And there not great one but)

1)In terms of both parties it could possibly be very damaging to their core support.

2)If there's another referendum then it would mostly likely be a 3 option - Remain, Whatever May gets and A hard Brexit. There's a decent chance that a hard brexit could win and well.....we are all fecked.

3)Why would this new referendum be anymore meaningful than the old one ?

4)It would be the biggest boost to the far right in decades.
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that would be total suicide. essentially you're giving the 52% the same vote they had last time and making it more difficult for the 48%
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Watching Question Time last night - I don't really get the arguments against another referendum (other then, it's done so it's done I guess)...

I mean, peoples opinions are allowed to change on matters (that's why we vote for new MP's and Governments after-all) ... I mean, if the vote had been to remain in Europe, would that have been the last ever vote on Europe? probably not... (there'd have been one in 10/20 years or so...) So whilst it has come around a bit quicker then that of course, with the amount of information out there now and the level of understanding on the issue among the general public increased... another vote makes sense.

And if it the vote stays the same, boom you have your answer.... if it changes, then guess what, the majority of the country don't want to leave anymore.
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The biggest reason is why would it be anymore meaningful and why wouldn't we end up having another in a years time? Or 5 years time?

I think everyone understands that we can't have continuous votes on the relationship so it's how we settle it for a generation.

A second referendum would only be possible if we get a clear position on terms if we leave and terms if we stay, otherwise it's as bullshit as the first vote.
 
Smores said:
The biggest reason is why would it be anymore meaningful and why wouldn't we end up having another in a years time? Or 5 years time?

I think everyone understands that we can't have continuous votes on the relationship so it's how we settle it for a generation.

A second referendum would only be possible if we get a clear position on terms if we leave and terms if we stay, otherwise it's as bullshit as the first vote.
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Absolutely, and the 'people's vote' campaigners should be demanding that May formally requests the EU to declare it's position on a withdrawal of article 50, in the Remain campaign's own interest, because if people don't know for sure before a second referendum then Leave will have a massive open goal to claim whatever they want. I can see Farage now, 'we'll lose the rebate, we'll have to join the Euro, we'll have to join Schengen, we'll lose our veto' - Remain would get slaughtered in any second referendum like that.

It would help if Remainers spent less time declaring how stupid everyone else is and a bit more time working out exactly how they're going to go about achieving their objectives.
 
711 said:
Absolutely, and the 'people's vote' campaigners should be demanding that May formally requests the EU to declare it's position on a withdrawal of article 50, in the Remain campaign's own interest, because if people don't know for sure before a second referendum then Leave will have a massive open goal to claim whatever they want. I can see Farage now, 'we'll lose the rebate, we'll have to join the Euro, we'll have to join Schengen, we'll lose our veto' - Remain would get slaughtered in any second referendum like that.

It would help if Remainers spent less time declaring how stupid everyone else is and a bit more time working out exactly how they're going to go about achieving their objectives.
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To be honest if the EU did push us down joining the Euro i think I'd vote leave :nervous:

I don't think they would though, it'll be a loss of the rebate as a warning to anyone else thinking of leaving and that would be fair.
 
Smores said:
To be honest if the EU did push us down joining the Euro i think I'd vote leave :nervous:

I don't think they would though, it'll be a loss of the rebate as a warning to anyone else thinking of leaving and that would be fair.
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I think that's most likely too, but most likely ain't going to win any vote, is it?
 
Massive Spanner said:
that would be total suicide. essentially you're giving the 52% the same vote they had last time and making it more difficult for the 48%
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Actually is not. Would be an advantage to remain as you divide leave in 2. Lets say it remains the same as 2 years ago

- Remain 48%
- Mays plan (lets say) 15%
- Hard Brexit (lets say) 37%

Remain wins even if Leave would be majority
 
711 said:
Absolutely, and the 'people's vote' campaigners should be demanding that May formally requests the EU to declare it's position on a withdrawal of article 50, in the Remain campaign's own interest, because if people don't know for sure before a second referendum then Leave will have a massive open goal to claim whatever they want. I can see Farage now, 'we'll lose the rebate, we'll have to join the Euro, we'll have to join Schengen, we'll lose our veto' - Remain would get slaughtered in any second referendum like that.

It would help if Remainers spent less time declaring how stupid everyone else is and a bit more time working out exactly how they're going to go about achieving their objectives.
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You mean you expect Farage to tell the truth if there is a next time. Everything that came out his mouth the first time was bilge but the Leavers all swallowed it. Why would it be different second time round?
Did you see him on that C4 programme, his only argument was refugees.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
You mean you expect Farage to tell the truth if there is a next time. Everything that came out his mouth the first time was bilge but the Leavers all swallowed it. Why would it be different second time round?
Did you see him on that C4 programme, his only argument was refugees.
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You're overexcited again Paul. Where did I say Farage has or will tell the truth? My point is that if Remainers hold a referendum without knowing what it is they're asking people to vote for then they will be playing straight into Farage's hands.

What I would like to see is Labour use one of it's opposition days to raise a motion that instructs May to ask the EU on what terms Britain might remain in the EU if the British electorate indicated that to be their wish. I don't know how many Tory Remainer rebels would vote for such a motion of course, but it would be easier for them to vote for something that only asks for more information than it would be to vote for an outright rejection of the Brexit referendum. The DUP might see it as the start of a way out of their hole too.

The main obstacle to even holding a second referendum is still Corbyn however, and unless Labour Remainers wake up to that and turn their criticism on to him personally then there won't be one anyway.
 
711 said:
You're overexcited again Paul. Where did I say Farage has or will tell the truth? My point is that if Remainers hold a referendum without knowing what it is they're asking people to vote for then they will be playing straight into Farage's hands.

What I would like to see is Labour use one of it's opposition days to raise a motion that instructs May to ask the EU on what terms Britain might remain in the EU if the British electorate indicated that to be their wish. I don't know how many Tory Remainer rebels would vote for such a motion of course, but it would be easier for them to vote for something that only asks for more information than it would be to vote for an outright rejection of the Brexit referendum. The DUP might see it as the start of a way out of their hole too.

The main obstacle to even holding a second referendum is still Corbyn however, and unless Labour Remainers wake up to that and turn their criticism on to him personally then there won't be one anyway.
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I don't disagree with what you said but everything was laid out before the voters in 2016, maybe not very well, but facts were rejected. Will facts be relevant if there is another time? What I meant was lies will be prevalent throughout a campaign but yes a clear plan would need to be conceived.
I wouldn't be surprised if May knew already the answer to the question about terms.

Imo if the UK now said they wanted to stay the EU would accept them back as they were with a proviso of not trying to leave again next year ie within a set period of time.
If, however, they want to keep extending A50 I doubt this would work. This could go on indefinitely until the UK decide what they actually want and moreover, can realistically have. The final decision has to be by the end of March 2019.
Therefore if the UK were to decide to stay there isn't time for a second referendum.

If the UK subsequently decided to rejoin/stay after March 2019 then I believe the terms would be different.

What I don't see is how whatever is agreed, one way or another getting through parliament whether because of Corbyn or the hardliners .
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I don't disagree with what you said but everything was laid out before the voters in 2016, maybe not very well, but facts were rejected. Will facts be relevant if there is another time? What I meant was lies will be prevalent throughout a campaign but yes a clear plan would need to be conceived.
I wouldn't be surprised if May knew already the answer to the question about terms.

Imo if the UK now said they wanted to stay the EU would accept them back as they were with a proviso of not trying to leave again next year ie within a set period of time.
If, however, they want to keep extending A50 I doubt this would work. This could go on indefinitely until the UK decide what they actually want and moreover, can realistically have. The final decision has to be by the end of March 2019.
Therefore if the UK were to decide to stay there isn't time for a second referendum.

If the UK subsequently decided to rejoin/stay after March 2019 then I believe the terms would be different.

What I don't see is how whatever is agreed, one way or another getting through parliament whether because of Corbyn or the hardliners .
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Well no it wasn't, and still isn't. We didn't know and still don't know whether we will have a customs union, a trade agreement with the EU, or whether we will be able to make trade agreements elsewhere, or what we do about the Irish border, or what freedom of movement there will be, or what our new immigration policy will be. That's just a start, I'm sure people could add loads more. If there is to be a second referendum asking for support of a May deal at least a lot of that would become known, what we don't want is for Remain to be the unknown, we need to know the details of that too. And sorry, I'm not being personal but IMO just doesn't count.
 
711 said:
Well no it wasn't, and still isn't. We didn't know and still don't know whether we will have a customs union, a trade agreement with the EU, or whether we will be able to make trade agreements elsewhere, or what we do about the Irish border, or what freedom of movement there will be, or what our new immigration policy will be. That's just a start, I'm sure people could add loads more. If there is to be a second referendum asking for support of a May deal at least a lot of that would become known, what we don't want is for Remain to be the unknown, we need to know the details of that too. And sorry, I'm not being personal but IMO just doesn't count.
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No I disagree. If the UK leaves the EU they leave the CU and SM and become a third country. If they leave the CU they can make their own deals. If they leave the CU and SM the Irish border has to be hard. It was true in 2016 and is still true now. What the UK is trying to do is still have the benefits and no responsibility. The UK's immigration policy towards the EU will depend on whether they leave or not. 4 freedoms.
A trade deal will be as a third country like Canada or Japan if they leave, and you won't know what it is for years.

The fact that people have only just starting to realise what the consequences is the real problem. It's like Raab just realising the most important trade route is Dover/Calais, this was pointed out three years ago and ignored and he's supposed to be the one in charge. The Irish problem was pointed out three years ago and ignored. Everything was but no-one was listening.
 
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