I recon she could get a majority for some sort of Norway style deal, with help from Labour. Doubt there is time to negotiate that though.
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The Norway deal is worse than been a full member. They were discussing that in depth a few weeks ago on the radio, they even had a Norwegian business man on who gave the details and confirmed that. That is the last option by far. I’d rather stay in that, and if that prat Kinnock is in favour of it that proves it!
Here is a list link describing it in detail, make your own mind up.
https://www.politico.eu/article/norwegian-pm-uk-cannot-cherry-pick-eu-membership/
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What pisses me off is that while I totally understand people's desire to send a protest vote against a system they consider deeply unfair, the stupid cnuts then keep repeatedly voting the Tories back into power.
If you are pretending to take into account the concerns of the Leave voters (as deduced from the referendum), then Norway makes no sense whatsoever. It involves:
- no “take back control” - the UK would be a rule taker with no seat at the table
- no “350m for the NHS” - the UK would still be paying some membetship fees
- no control of borders, and here come 80m Turks - there is freedom of movement with EU states
For Remainers, it is a much inferior version of what we have now and, if it won’t satisfy Leavers anyway, why downgrade ourselves?
Basically, with May’s deal dead (and which was only a transition arrangement anyway while the long-term deal was negotiated) a choice needs to be made between Remain and a no deal leave. There is no achievable alternative which makes sense.
- no “take back control” - the UK would be a rule taker with no seat at the table
- no “350m for the NHS” - the UK would still be paying some membetship fees
- no control of borders, and here come 80m Turks - there is freedom of movement with EU states
For Remainers, it is a much inferior version of what we have now and, if it won’t satisfy Leavers anyway, why downgrade ourselves?
Basically, with May’s deal dead (and which was only a transition arrangement anyway while the long-term deal was negotiated) a choice needs to be made between Remain and a no deal leave. There is no achievable alternative which makes sense.
So 26% of the voting public could drive us to a no deal Brexit? Yea that's a terrible idea.
Says more about Labour no?
Nope - it says more about media brainwashing. I can't remember the last Labour leader who wasn't subjected to constant ridicule in the press. Unfortunately, this nonsense seems to convince the public time and again.
To a point it's an indictment of Corbyn, and his unwillingness to find some kind of middle group between himself and the moderates in the party. At this point in time there is absolutely no good fecking reason to be talking about the plight of Palestinians, about our NATO membership, about unilateral nuclear disarmament or any of the other vanity projects of the far left.
It also says a lot about the political disengagement of the British public however who keep voting Tories back into power despite them draining public services of funds, and fundamentally undermining the NHS which the public almost unanimously support. There's a genuine mass ignorance about what parties actually stand for, what they do, and what is a realistic expectation of them. Vast numbers of people don't know shit about politics, don't understand the issues and the policies but believe their own often deeply childish interpretations must be right because of 'common sense'. It's the same in America, which is why they have such a ridiculous, braindead asshole in the White House.
I've got a long running theory that this is a cycle. In times of national crisis people start to focus on politics and the genuinely important things that effect everyones lives and then we see genuiine positive change in the wake of the crisis. Then as people become comfortable in their lives, they disengage and focus on their own personal circumstances and so over time politicians can operate under far less public scrutiny. Propaganda becomes more important than public engagement and policy and the level of leadership declines as liars and salesmen replace genuine statesmen and women. This inevitably leads eventually to mass public disgust and disapproval of politicians, which opens the door to the next group of populists to come along and feck everything up and cause the new crisis to reset the cycle.
That's my theory anyway.
Someone on This Morning stockpiling food and installing solar panels in preparation for Brexit
Cameron hasn't been PM for nearly 2 1/2 years and there has been a GE in between. It's irrelevant to the current situation.
He wanted us to stay in Europe, the vote went against his strongly held views, he did the honourable thing & resigned. I really don't see the problem.
I think working class people vote for Tories because at the end of the day being seen to be tough on crime and scapegoating immigrants resonates with people. Also you need a certain level of economic sophistication to understand how misleading it is to speak about a country's finances in the same way as a households finances. It is a neat analogy that makes a lot of sense: we are in debt, we need to cut back, just like if your family had huge credit card debts, you would stop going to the cinema every Friday night and start buying Tesco Value beans. By the time you start pointing out that families dont have the ability to print their own money and raise taxes, they have already switched off.
Ah, that'll be it, the media.
If Labour spent less blaming the right-wing media and more time on appointing a credible leader who at least looks prime-ministerial, they might make some headway.
It's not irrelevant because it highlights how untrustworthy the Tories are. The fact that it's only been 2.5 years shows how it is still an issue. The country is divided and the fact that Cameron couldn't see that happening is his own fault and should be noted in history.
You could argue it's not helpful right now but that's a separate issue.
What’s the alternative? That terrorist supporter Corbyn with his terrorist supporting sidekick McDonnell?
Until Labour sought themselves out then the conservatives are the best of a bad bunch.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4571924/Corbyn-s-30-years-talking-terrorists.html
Even MI 5 have a file on him, he’s not really fit to be an MP let alone PM.
It tells you how effective the brainwashing by the mainstream media is. The BBC especially.
I'm sorry I just disagree with you entirely.
Like I said, he did the honourable thing & resigned as he could not lead a party into Brexit against his strongly held, opposing, views. He actually has some principles, yet you are criticising him for it? May was pro Remain but is persueing a Brexit policy, that's hypocrisy.
To a point it's an indictment of Corbyn, and his unwillingness to find some kind of middle group between himself and the moderates in the party. At this point in time there is absolutely no good fecking reason to be talking about the plight of Palestinians, about our NATO membership, about unilateral nuclear disarmament or any of the other vanity projects of the far left.
It also says a lot about the political disengagement of the British public however who keep voting Tories back into power despite them draining public services of funds, and fundamentally undermining the NHS which the public almost unanimously support. There's a genuine mass ignorance about what parties actually stand for, what they do, and what is a realistic expectation of them. Vast numbers of people don't know shit about politics, don't understand the issues and the policies but believe their own often deeply childish interpretations must be right because of 'common sense'. It's the same in America, which is why they have such a ridiculous, braindead asshole in the White House.
I've got a long running theory that this is a cycle. In times of national crisis people start to focus on politics and the genuinely important things that effect everyones lives and then we see genuiine positive change in the wake of the crisis. Then as people become comfortable in their lives, they disengage and focus on their own personal circumstances and so over time politicians can operate under far less public scrutiny. Propaganda becomes more important than public engagement and policy and the level of leadership declines as liars and salesmen replace genuine statesmen and women. This inevitably leads eventually to mass public disgust and disapproval of politicians, which opens the door to the next group of populists to come along and feck everything up and cause the new crisis to reset the cycle.
That's my theory anyway.
That third paragraph is a really interesting take.
Also agree wholeheartedly re the second paragraph. So often it's about the person, not politics. It's shallow and it shouldn't be the case, but it is that that win elections. Labour seem to have lost sight of that.
Instead they shot themselves in the foot with Miliband. And then proceeded to shoot themselves in the other foot with Corbyn.
You caught me - Phillip Hammond, the world's biggest slimeball, at your service
The fact he couldn't control his party and gambled with the future of the country is the issue and that can't be ignored least from a historical perspective. I go back and forth whether or not he should have resigned.
I'm less of a fan of May than I am of Cameron but even I can't call her a hypocrite on pursuing Brexit when the country did just vote for it.
You see no issue with a leader abandoning his post at a time of crisis when the likes of Boris could have taken over? Which would have resulted in the country in a direction Cameron further disagreed with.
The only principle was cowardice because he didn't want to take on the fight.
Mi 5 probably have files on about 80% of the country to be fair.
You're in a minority then. He is the architect of this chaos.
Setting the referendum up as advisory and non-binding, but then treating it as though it was definitive and legally binding - that is on Cameron.
Setting it up so as to necessitate a huge, complex constitutional change based on a simple 50%+1 majority, rather than a 2/3 supermajority, as almost every other country requires for such a significant constitutional change, that is on Cameron.
Making absolutely no preparation for what happens in the event that things dont go according to plan, plunging the country into chaos as soon as the vote was announced, is on Cameron.
Calling a referendum in the first place, putting a ridiculously complicated and nuanced question that most MPs dont even understand, let alone the public, to be decided as a simple, binary question, all to appease a minority of bellends in his own party, is on Cameron.
Cameron is far more culpable for the mess we are currently in that May IMO.
Setting it up so as to necessitate a huge, complex constitutional change based on a simple 50%+1 majority, rather than a 2/3 supermajority, as almost every other country requires for such a significant constitutional change, that is on Cameron.
Making absolutely no preparation for what happens in the event that things dont go according to plan, plunging the country into chaos as soon as the vote was announced, is on Cameron.
Calling a referendum in the first place, putting a ridiculously complicated and nuanced question that most MPs dont even understand, let alone the public, to be decided as a simple, binary question, all to appease a minority of bellends in his own party, is on Cameron.
Cameron is far more culpable for the mess we are currently in that May IMO.
He could have resigned as PM but stayed on as a back bencher, but oh no, that was beneath him, he ran away completely. Odious little man.
Got to agree with Adebesi, great summing up of Cameron.
I dont think they bother anymore, they just hack into people's facebook accounts, there is more info in there for the average user than they would ever have had on anyone in the past.
“If Kinnock wins today, will the last person to leave Britain please turn out the lights” and such like should in theory be less of an issue the more newspaper circulation continues to fall. The internet is & will be a great leveller.
In the interests of balance, the BBC was (still is?) frequently accused of left wing bias
Through these eyes & ears though any intended bias on Radio/TV has been minimal, or at least very subtle, thankfully.
Dont get all the Cameron bashing.
UKIP/right wing Tories had his bollocks in a vice in 2015.
If he wanted to get an overall maj (first time for the Tories since ‘92 remember, so quite a prize) it was clear he would need to woo them by offering a referendum.
...and why not really? Clear that there was division on the issue in the country at large so let’s put it up in lights again for the first time since the 1970s.
He got his overall majority, lost the referendum & resigned as he (correctly) realised Brexit clashed with his own personal beliefs.
What’s the problem?
UKIP/right wing Tories had his bollocks in a vice in 2015.
If he wanted to get an overall maj (first time for the Tories since ‘92 remember, so quite a prize) it was clear he would need to woo them by offering a referendum.
...and why not really? Clear that there was division on the issue in the country at large so let’s put it up in lights again for the first time since the 1970s.
He got his overall majority, lost the referendum & resigned as he (correctly) realised Brexit clashed with his own personal beliefs.
What’s the problem?
Marxist utopia, see thats what he's getting at. Idiotic statements like that come from the media and brain wash the gullible.
Labours policies continue to poll very well there isn't a Marxist utopia and far left agenda. It's a centre left socialist platform not much further than Cleggs initial platform.
The demonizing of Corbyn is media led as were the attacks on Milliband and his father. How anyone could claim they aren't attacked is beyond me.
And would you be fine if one of the parties put forth a referendum on the death penalty to gain a majority? I mean the british constantly poll as wanting it so why not what's the problem?
The problem is that he caved in to UKIP and promised a referendum to win the election.
He then held the referendum having tried pathetically to so called renegotiate our terms with the EU.
Even worse, it is now clearly obvious that there was zero idea of what Brexit meant and zero planning for a leave vote.
Did he then have the guts to try to sort out his mess; did he fxxx.
He buggered off leaving others to sort out his mess.
Worst Tory leader ever and probably the worst PM ever.
Apart from that he displays typical upper class behaviours.
When things go wrong, run for them there hills.
Pompous twat.
How spinelesss must someone be to vote against her in the leadership election, against her deal, but for her in a confidence vote?
It is becoming increasingly hard to fathom any kind of respect for these people. I can't even give them any begrudging respect anymore, they are just jokes that are completely out of their depths, ruining their country and massively damaging our continent, cuntz.
It is becoming increasingly hard to fathom any kind of respect for these people. I can't even give them any begrudging respect anymore, they are just jokes that are completely out of their depths, ruining their country and massively damaging our continent, cuntz.
Because referendums are a terrible tool when it comes to multi disciplinary issues. Brexit isn't and will never be a question that should be put to the public because every topics requires a deep legal, political, social and economic understanding. You can't reduce 50 years of collaboration, legislation and technical debate to a simple binary question.
Well said Cameron is a chancer and a coward, he started all this shit just to strengthen his position in his own party. How he doesn't get more shit for it don't know.
Quite agree. Supersilious git.
You will always see him next to Mrs May, loading the bullets so she can fire them.
Made an utter shambles of our Defence and doing the same with the economy.
If it isn't the media's fault at all... where are you getting all of this misinformation you have just spouted?
Marxist Utopia? Far left? Explain to me what in the Labour manifesto justifies that sort of rhetoric? I am intrigued.
Someone on This Morning stockpiling food and installing solar panels in preparation for Brexit
The sun shines in the UK?