Abortion

Medico legally abortion should only be done by the surgeon when the woman's life itself is in danger, having a serious medical condition or something that may lead to her death if the pregnancy goes on, thus you have to save her life and perform a therapeutic abortion. You can't sacrifice the mother for the sake of the fetus!

Another case is if the fetus was diagnosed by an incompatible congenital anomaly like anencephaly.

Otherwise, whatever other non medical conditions abortion shouldn't be performed by a surgeon. He's not supposed to choose if the fetus should live or not when everything else medically is stable for both the mother and the fetus.
 
Eboue said:
The doctor doesnt decide, the woman does.
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She has no right either to kill a soul if everything medically wise is stable for her and her baby.

Only in case of medical condition that can kill her or her fetus is when abortion should be done.

Otherwise it's crime and both her and surgeon will be part of it.
 
el3mel said:
She has no right either to kill a soul if everything medically wise is stable for her and her baby.

Only in case of medical condition that can kill her or her fetus is when abortion should be done.

Otherwise it's crime and both her and surgeon will be part of it.
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Yes she does
A fetus that cant survive outside the womb isnt a human
No its not
 
Yes it is.

No it isn’t.

Riveting. I love big talk.

Eboue’s right by the way. And if you lunatics were to have your way and have abortion outlawed, you’d start seeing terrible consequences. More kids who don’t get what they need, kids who get fecked up by failed abortions, mothers who die from failed abortions, an increased burden on the legal system and wrongful imprisonments.

I get that religious views might lead to the conclusion, but that just adds to the list of ways that religiosity heaps misery onto an already difficult life for many. Look at the outcomes.
 
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Every kid should have the right to have a mother that really wants to first carry it the right way and that wants to have it - in a modern western state in good financial conditions for mother and child.

I do not know why we talk about abortions are illegal or wrong if that is not guaranteed.

All of this christian lunatics and anti-abortions should first fight for the social conditions for mothers and children. Actually they will find that if the social and financial status for them is higher (and there is enough sexual education in that country) the abortion rates are far lower...
 
el3mel said:
Medico legally abortion should only be done by the surgeon when the woman's life itself is in danger, having a serious medical condition or something that may lead to her death if the pregnancy goes on, thus you have to save her life and perform a therapeutic abortion. You can't sacrifice the mother for the sake of the fetus!

Another case is if the fetus was diagnosed by an incompatible congenital anomaly like anencephaly.

Otherwise, whatever other non medical conditions abortion shouldn't be performed by a surgeon. He's not supposed to choose if the fetus should live or not when everything else medically is stable for both the mother and the fetus.
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Why it should be this way?
 
Eriku said:
Yes it is.

No it isn’t.

Riveting. I love big talk.

Eboue’s right by the way. And if you lunatics were to have your way and have abortion outlawed, you’d start seeing terrible consequences. More kids who don’t get what they need, kids who get fecked up by failed abortions, mothers who die from failed abortions, an increased burden on the legal system and wrongful imprisonments.

I get that religious views might lead to the conclusion, but that just adds to the list of ways that religiosity heaps misery onto an already difficult life for many. Look at the outcomes.
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I don't ge this. If life is so difficult for the parents why would she get pregnant to start with? I mean contraception is a thing if they want sex that much isn't it?

As for mothers who die from failed abortion, I literally said that if she had a serious medical condition that can lead to her death if the pregnancy goes on she has he right to save her life and do a therapeutic abortion.

But for the difficult life part, no one forced her to get pregnant to start with. Contraception is a thing and it's effective if she doesn't want a baby.
 
el3mel said:
I don't ge this. If life is so difficult for the parents why would she get pregnant to start with? I mean contraception is a thing if they want sex that much isn't it?

As for mothers who die from failed abortion, I literally said that if she had a serious medical condition that can lead to her death if the pregnancy goes on she has he right to save her life and do a therapeutic abortion.

But for the difficult life part, no one forced her to get pregnant to start with. Contraception is a thing and it's effective if she doesn't want a baby.
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Contraceptives don't always work.
 
Billy Blaggs said:
Contraceptives don't always work.
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Most known reason for contraceptive pills failure is due to incorrect use not because they themselves aren't effective. They have a very very high success rate as long as they are using it correctly.
 
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el3mel said:
Most known reason for contraceptive pills failure is due to incorrect use not because they themselves aren't effective. They have a very very high success rate as long as they are using it correctly.
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As you said most. What about if there's a bad batch of pills or a bad batch of Condoms?

Do you believe in the plan B morning after pill option?
 
Billy Blaggs said:
As you said most. What about if there's a bad batch of pills or a bad batch of Condoms?

Do you believe in the plan B morning after pill option?
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If used properly, COCs can prevent pregnancy up to 1-2 women per 100 getting pregnant while using it. It's pretty effective. I'm medical student BTW and studying Gynecology these days so kinda wanted to share what I believe/know.

Also I mean if they both care that much about not having a baby they will check for the pills and condoms and ensure they are always good and won't have sex without ensuring these things and used properly.

That really doesn't sound a decent excuse for me for these parents. There are many ways to not get pregnant to start with if they will hate having a baby that much in their life. Up to not having sex if it's that big of a problem or life is that difficult for them. My point is no one really forced her to get pregnant to start with.

I have searched plan B you mentioned and I found it's using the same hormone used in some IUD devices. Yeah that hormone can be effective as long as it's used within 24 hours but normal birth control is better for long term.
 
el3mel said:
I don't ge this. If life is so difficult for the parents why would she get pregnant to start with? I mean contraception is a thing if they want sex that much isn't it?
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This is spectacularly, enragingly naive. Or wilfully ignorant to a degree that is extremely arrogant.

Edit: Just read the part where you said you're studying medicine. You need to combine it with studying a bit of the world and your future patients. "Why didn't you just not get pregnant?" is not really going to cut it for bedside manner.
 
Snow said:
An embryo is only genetically human.
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He's a human though at the end of the day. He's not going to develop to anything else as far as I'm concerned.

If he doesn't have a congenital anomalies that will make him incompatible with life, if the pregnancy isn't associated with complication and if the mother is fully fit and doesn't have any medical problems, who should I kill him? Because she doesn't want him only? What did the fetus do to get killed earlier if him and the mother were medically completely well?

And as I said if the life for the parents was that difficult from the start, contraception and not getting pregnant to start with should be the rule not abortion imo.

I'm not for outlawing abortion in general. It's needed in several conditions as I said when the surgeon himself ask to terminate pregnancy for the sake of the mother or if the fetus isn't going to live long after being born due to a series congenital anomaly appearing in US. Termination of pregnancy and therapeutic abortion is a method of treatment of many obstetric and Gynecological diseases.

However I'm against abortion because the mother doesn't want him for the sake of it, because the fetus did nothing to deserve to be killed for absolutely no reason imo. There are many ways to not have a baby if the parents care that much about that.
 
el3mel said:
If he doesn't have a congenital anomalies that will make him incompatible with life, if the pregnancy isn't associated with complication and if the mother is fully fit and doesn't have any medical problems, who should I kill him? Because she doesn't want him only?
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Your scenarios omit a massive, very dark area of human existence where women are impregnated by force.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
This is spectacularly, enragingly naive. Or wilfully ignorant to a degree that is extremely arrogant.

Edit: Just read the part where you said you're studying medicine. You need to combine it with studying a bit of the world and your future patients. "Why didn't you just not get pregnant?" is not really going to cut it for bedside manner.
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I won't have to do that because abortion without a medical reason is outlawed here and that patient will have to do it away from governmental hospitals. I won't see such patients so don't worry about me much.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Your scenarios omit a massive, very dark area of human existence where women are impregnated by force.
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OK buddy. Everyone was talking nicely up till you showed up. If you think my views are as crap you can simply put me on the ignore.
 
el3mel said:
I won't have to do that because abortion without a medical reason is outlawed here and that patient will have to do it away from governmental hospitals. I won't see such patients so don't worry about me much.
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So you're all right Jack, and feck any poor woman in a crisis pregnancy, right.

Ok.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
So you're all right Jack, and feck any poor woman in a crisis pregnancy, right.

Ok.
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Crisis pregnancy for me is when the woman is going to die if the pregnancy goes on, not because she just doesn't want baby for the sake of it.

So I should care about the woman and not the fetus I'm going to kill for no reason except for letting him be born and live normally?
 
el3mel said:
He's a human though at the end of the day. He's not going to develop to anything else as far as I'm concerned.

If he doesn't have a congenital anomalies that will make him incompatible with life, if the pregnancy isn't associated with complication and if the mother is fully fit and doesn't have any medical problems, who should I kill him? Because she doesn't want him only? What did the fetus do to get killed earlier if him and the mother were medically completely well?

And as I said if the life for the parents was that difficult from the start, contraception and not getting pregnant to start with should be the rule not abortion imo.

I'm not for outlawing abortion in general. It's needed in several conditions as I said when the surgeon himself ask to terminate pregnancy for the sake of the mother or if the fetus isn't going to live long after being born due to a series congenital anomaly appearing in US. Termination of pregnancy and therapeutic abortion is a method of treatment of many obstetric and Gynecological diseases.

However I'm against abortion because the mother doesn't want him for the sake of it, because the fetus did nothing to deserve to be killed for absolutely no reason imo. There are many ways to not have a baby if the parents care that much about that.
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You interchangibly use the word baby and fetus like it's the same thing. This isn't going anywhere. I can say that you do seem very ignorant on women's issues and if you have such a hard time comprehending a scenario where a women gets pregnant without wanting a baby then maybe you should read up on women's issues some more if it's something you feel so strongly about.
 
Snow said:
You interchangibly use the word baby and fetus like it's the same thing. This isn't going anywhere. I can say that you do seem very ignorant on women's issues and if you have such a hard time comprehending a scenario where a women gets pregnant without wanting a baby then maybe you should read up on women's issues some more if it's something you feel so strongly about.
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Fetus is a living organism though. I said that several times. He's not just a foreign body you are removing from her uterus or something. He is a full living organism growing to become a full human.

Why shouldn't I care as much about that fetus I'm going to kill and only care about the woman?
 
I suggest you spend some time reading actual women's stories.

3 types of birth control failed
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=317755935533750&id=279428862699791

Beaten when trying to use contraception and raped
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=316182159024461&id=279428862699791

Believing it's wrong like you, until raped and impregnated
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=286260935349917&id=279428862699791

In a violent relationship and had unplanned sex once with someone else who showed her kindness. Got pregnant.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=279784419330902&id=279428862699791

There are thousands of women's stories on that page.
 
unchanged_lineup said:
I suggest you spend some time reading actual women's stories.

3 types of birth control failed
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=317755935533750&id=279428862699791

Beaten when trying to use contraception and raped
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=316182159024461&id=279428862699791

Believing it's wrong like you, until raped and impregnated
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=286260935349917&id=279428862699791

In a violent relationship and had unplanned sex with someone else who showed her kindness once. Got pregnant.
279784419330902&id=279428862699791

There are thousands of women's stories on that page.
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Why are you acting like I want abortion to be fully outlawed when I am talking about asking for abortion just for the sake of it and killing a fetus for absolutely no reason?

I don't remember bringing raping in any of my comments so far.

Termination of pregnancy and abortion is a respectable method of treatment and used in many situations normally. Some times it's even the only method of treatment.

What you don't get it's that it just has its indications for the surgeon to agree on performing it. Asking for abortion without an indication or a reason just because she doesn't want the baby is a crime.
 
el3mel said:
Why are you acting like I want abortion to be fully outlawed when I am talking about asking for abortion just for the sake of it and killing a fetus for absolutely no reason?

I don't remember bringing raping in any of my comments so far.

Termination of pregnancy and abortion is a respectable method of treatment and used in many situations normally. Some times it's even the only method of treatment.

What you don't get it's that it just has its indications for the surgeon to agree on performing it. Asking for abortion without an indication or a reason just because she doesn't want the baby is a crime.
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So you're not going to read any of those stories that might explain reasons outside of the ones you currently consider?

Also, your last statement - that is NOT a crime in my country.

Edit: we went through a very contentious referendum here last year to make it not a crime. There were so many stories of people like you who couldn't see the human emotional factor until it happened to someone in their own family or their lives. They universally say that once it happened close to them, their eyes were opened. It's tragic but all too common.
 
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unchanged_lineup said:
So you're not going to read any of those stories that might explain reasons outside of the ones you currently consider?

Also, your last statement - that is NOT a crime in my country.
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I will make sure to read them, but that wasn't the points I was making though. I was talking about asking for abortion for no reason just because she doesn't want the baby or she had sex with someone fully aware and got pregnant by mistake even though it's her own problem. You are bringing stories with reasons like raping and being beaten and such we may discuss if abortion was a correct decision in it or not, so yeah that's in a different direction.

I know it's not outlawed and voluntary in USA but that differs from country to another I guess. There's a term called criminal abortion you can search it. That's what I'm talking about.
 
el3mel said:
I won't have to do that because abortion without a medical reason is outlawed here and that patient will have to do it away from governmental hospitals. I won't see such patients so don't worry about me much.
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The problem though is that it still happens, whether it is outlawed or not. This is something men seem to struggle to understand unfortunately, even while we pass laws (religious and civil) banning abortion and I imagine in huge part because we don't have to do anything even remotely like that in our lives.

8% of all maternal deaths worldwide are caused by abortion. Over 99% of those deaths are due to unsafe abortions. A lot of women will find a way anyway.

Unfortunately, because of laws we pass, sometimes that way involves back alley medications or a coat hanger. So follows massive and uncontrolled bleeding, tetanus and other infections, often in settings in which they either have no access or may be denied access to healthcare for what they've just done. So follows death, completely and utterly avoidable and a tragic story. Or the pregnancy is followed through, the child may be left on the street or shunned from society.

I mean let's take Egypt as an example. I know you're from there and you know my wife is half Egyptian and grew up mostly there. One of her friends is probably one of the nicest and most noble people I have ever met in my life and works with street kids in Egypt, a thankless job for a widely stigmatised group. My in-laws are disgusted by them and disgusted when I give them money or buy them food or a drink. What Nelly tells me is that a huge portion of these kids (this is a few years ago now, may well have changed) are born out of wedlock. What this means (again, may have changed by now in Egypt) is that it is very difficult for these kids to get valid birth certificates, to get national id cards. It is very difficult for them to register for schooling or be able to go and access even the often poor public healthcare system.

So these children are born, through no fault of their own. And they're pretty much locked into a life on the street, outside of the normal system, with no education, housing, healthcare or dignity. Really no identity. Many of them end up in prison, often just because the police are bored and many of them will perpetuate the cycle because they will end up having kids out of wedlock (how can you get married officially if you don't exist as a real person) and so the cycle continues.

Am I say we should abort all streetkids? Of course not. However, we've created the circumstances in this instance where abortion is banned because of the sanctity of human life, only to then force those babies to lead a life on the street and without any shred of human dignity, for factors completely and utterly out of their control.

That seems neither fair nor moral to me.
 
el3mel said:
I will make sure to read them, but that wasn't the points I was making though. I was talking about asking for abortion for no reason just because she doesn't want the baby or she had sex with someone fully aware and got pregnant by mistake even though it's her own problem. You are bringing stories with reasons like raping and being beaten and such we may discuss if abortion was a correct decision in it or not, so yeah that's in a different direction.

I know it's not outlawed and voluntary in USA but that differs from country to another I guess. There's a term called criminal abortion you can search it. That's what I'm talking about.
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I'm in Ireland. Do you know about the referendum we had only last year?

"For no reason" is my massive problem with your arguments. There is always a reason and the page that has those stories I shared will tell you thousands of reasons.
 
el3mel said:
I will make sure to read them, but that wasn't the points I was making though. I was talking about asking for abortion for no reason just because she doesn't want the baby or she had sex with someone fully aware and got pregnant by mistake even though it's her own problem. You are bringing stories with reasons like raping and being beaten and such we may discuss if abortion was a correct decision in it or not, so yeah that's in a different direction.

I know it's not outlawed and voluntary in USA but that differs from country to another I guess. There's a term called criminal abortion you can search it. That's what I'm talking about.
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I think this sentence is particularly telling and a huge part of the issue we have with pregnancy and the abortion debate.

Leaving aside the problematic (in my opinion) approach of blaming women for having sex, a pregnancy is not her own problem. She didn't have sex by herself, there was a man involved somewhere, with a penis and semen. It should be both her and the man's problem. Yet it so rarely is.

50% of that 'problem' is genetically his yet the reality is society rarely sees it that way. They don't blame the man for getting pregnant (even though in many settings, due to a power imbalance, it is the man who decides whether contraception is used or not). So in countries where abortion is banned, often countries in which men hold significantly more power than women, he gets her pregnant, runs away, has nothing to do with the situation and the woman is blamed, the woman is forced to raise a child she does not want and is forced to change her entire life around 1 encounter, while he runs off, washing his hands of the situation.
 
africanspur said:
I think this sentence is particularly telling and a huge part of the issue we have with pregnancy and the abortion debate.

Leaving aside the problematic (in my opinion) approach of blaming women for having sex, a pregnancy is not her own problem. She didn't have sex by herself, there was a man involved somewhere, with a penis and semen. It should be both her and the man's problem. Yet it so rarely is.

50% of that 'problem' is genetically his yet the reality is society rarely sees it that way. They don't blame the man for getting pregnant (even though in many settings, due to a power imbalance, it is the man who decides whether contraception is used or not). So in countries where abortion is banned, often countries in which men hold significantly more power than women, he gets her pregnant, runs away, has nothing to do with the situation and the woman is blamed, the woman is forced to raise a child she does not want and is forced to change her entire life around 1 encounter, while he runs off, washing his hands of the situation.
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There are countless stories on that page I shared where women were coerced into sex by shitty men who then basically tell them "All yours, deal with it" and feck off. Literally four or five words to the woman and never seen or heard from again.

How moral is that, I wonder?
 
Sorry, forgot one more thing.

I sometimes struggle with the glib attitude people take to women seeking abortion. They are sometimes painted as irresponsible, just turning up at the abortion clinic with no care in the world to have their 4th abortion done and whatnot.

Undoubtedly some women are like this and use abortion as a birth control method. This is a small minority though. For most women, it is a huge decision, one they do not take lightly. An abortion clinic is a horrible place for everyone involved. Nobody is there, cheering or laughing away. Most of these women have really thought long and hard about this, feel guilty, are struggling and will most likely carry this decision with them for the rest of their lives.

Its not easy and its not simple.
 
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