Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Would you rather be holding a line / punching through a line with them or without them?

I think the answer to that is still “with”.

What's true for tanks now was true even in WW2, they are most effective in a combined arms assault. None of the great tank battles have happened in a vacuum. They still have a role to play in modern warfare but you have to use them smartly like with anything else.
 
It just seems like you quickly end up a sitting duck with what modern infantry appears to be carrying.
I know feck all about it though.
You do, but there’s still a role for a heavily armed mobile bunker… even if a bunker can be eliminated.
What's true for tanks now was true even in WW2, they are most effective in a combined arms assault. None of the great tank battles have happened in a vacuum. They still have a role to play in modern warfare but you have to use them smartly like with anything else.
Exactly right.
 
No one could watch this video and claim that the Russians aren't suffering massive losses. It concerns a convoy 4km long, totally destroyed:

 
Three Russian cosmonauts wear colours of Ukrainian flag as they arrive on space station
The Russian team arrived aboard the International Space Station after launching from Kazakhstan and were wearing space suits of yellow and blue- the colours of Ukraine

1_Three-Russian-cosmonauts-safely-arrivedat-the-International-Space-Station-ISS-on-Friday-docking.jpg
 
Did NATO promise Russia never to expand to the east?



Even the question is wrong! NATO does not "expand". NATO is a defense union, a country has to apply to join, and it may be accepted or it may not. NATO does not force any countries to join.
 
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Even the question is wrong! NATO does not "expand". NATO is a defense union, a country has to apply to join, and it may be accepted or it may not. NATO does not force any countries to join.
That seems like Russian-style semantics. So it hasn't 'expanded' in recent years, just accepted new members, becoming bigger, with a larger geographic footprint. If only there was a word for that...
 
That seems like Russian-style semantics. So it hasn't 'expanded' in recent years, just accepted new members, becoming bigger, with a larger geographic footprint. If only there was a word for that...

"Shrunk"
 
Even the question is wrong! NATO does not "expand". NATO is a defense union, a country has to apply to join, and it may be accepted or it may not. NATO does not force any countries to join.

It has expanded. The main problem is the Russian framing of talking about NATO as if it’s a military threat to Russia when it’s clearly not. Putin simply views it has a hinderance to his own plans to expand into Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

As usual, the truth is the opposite of what Putin claims.
 
It has expanded. The main problem is the Russian framing of talking about NATO as if it’s a military threat to Russia when it’s clearly not. Putin simply views it has a hinderance to his own plans to expand into Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

As usual, the truth is the opposite of what Putin claims.
Its a military organisation set up to counter Russia. All these countries joined specifically to give them a military counter Russia, so it clearly is. Doesn't justify invading a foreign nation but lets not be willfully blind.
I think with the benefit of hindsight our diplomatic approach to Russia in the 90's was less than perfect. Were allowed admit we aren't perfect without it being a justification of Russia or Putins actions.
 
Its a military organisation set up to counter Russia. All these countries joined specifically to give them a military counter Russia, so it clearly is. Doesn't justify invading a foreign nation but lets not be willfully blind.
I think with the benefit of hindsight our diplomatic approach to Russia in the 90's was less than perfect. Were allowed admit we aren't perfect without it being a justification of Russia or Putins actions.

NATO is not a threat to Russia. If Russia got on with its own business without invading others there would be no issue whatsoever.
 
NATO is not a threat to Russia. If Russia got on with its own business without invading others there would be no issue whatsoever.

Putin sees it differently, although I don't know enough to say if he's correct.

He said about a fortnight before the invasion that if Ukraine gained NATO membership, along with its recent military overhaul, it is possible Ukraine would be emboldened enough to attempt to recapture Crimea. He feared that in this situation, they could invoke article 5 when Russia started bombing Ukrainian airfields in response.

This scenario would put NATO in direct conflict with Russia with Ukraine having "started it" (which is a bit rich since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014).

Regardless, in that very specific scenario he claims to see NATO as a threat, or at least a NATO backed Ukraine. There are a few holes in this theory though, would Ukraine really attempt to take Crimea and expect NATO backing if they gained membership? None of us can really say, seems unlikely on the face of things. Second, what does the current invasion of Ukraine actually achieve in regard to the theoretical scenario Putin described above? I can't see it making any difference unless Russia takes Kiev and installs a puppet government, one that allows them to retain a constant military force in Ukraine. Or maybe they hope that as part of the peace treaty, Ukraine pledges never to join NATO. I digress, but Putin has given reasons as to why he considers NATO a threat - that effectively it embolden his enemies. Whether this is true, or even if he actually believes it, we'll likely never know.
 
Putin sees it differently, although I don't know enough to say if he's correct.

He said about a fortnight before the invasion that if Ukraine gained NATO membership, along with its recent military overhaul, it is possible Ukraine would be emboldened enough to attempt to recapture Crimea. He feared that in this situation, they could invoke article 5 when Russia started bombing Ukrainian airfields in response.

This scenario would put NATO in direct conflict with Russia with Ukraine having "started it" (which is a bit rich since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014).

Regardless, in that very specific scenario he claims to see NATO as a threat, or at least a NATO backed Ukraine. There are a few holes in this theory though, would Ukraine really attempt to take Crimea and expect NATO backing if they gained membership? None of us can really say, seems unlikely on the face of things. Second, what does the current invasion of Ukraine actually achieve in regard to the theoretical scenario Putin described above? I can't see it making any difference unless Russia takes Kiev and installs a puppet government, one that allows them to retain a constant military force in Ukraine. Or maybe they hope that as part of the peace treaty, Ukraine pledges never to join NATO. I digress, but Putin has given reasons as to why he considers NATO a threat - that effectively it embolden his enemies. Whether this is true, or even if he actually believes it, we'll likely never know.
If NATO was a threat they would have done something by now. Instead we see that even when Russia attacks a country in Europe they won't send a single soldier out of fear, and they're gonna invade Russia? Makes no sense except in conspiracy land.

I maintain Putin doesn't believe any of this, it's just the best conspiracy story they could come up with to excuse a naked power grab.
 
It has expanded. The main problem is the Russian framing of talking about NATO as if it’s a military threat to Russia when it’s clearly not. Putin simply views it has a hinderance to his own plans to expand into Ukraine and Eastern Europe.

As usual, the truth is the opposite of what Putin claims.

You are not wrong, but when someone talks about "NATO expansion" it often sounds like NATO conquers other countries or enslaves them or something. Which is definitely not true. Countries ask to join on their own volition, and counties can also decide to leave if they want to. It is not like "the expansion of the Roman Empire", or the expansion of Russia.

After what happened with Ukraine, when I see anything about "NATO expansion" I now don't even bother to read or watch it, I automatically assume it is Putinistas talking bullshit.
 
Russia says it has launched hypersonic missiles
The Russian defence ministry claims to have destroyed an underground warehouse in western Ukraine using hypersonic missiles.
It says the depot in the Ivano-Frankivsk region had contained missiles and aircraft ammunition, though this has not been independently verified by Sky News.
Hypersonic missiles are able to travel five times faster than the speed of sound, at speeds of Mach 5 (3,800 mph) and higher.
This is the first time Russia has admitted to using weapons of this type.
The BBC reports that the "Kinzhal" missile system was deployed in the strike. It is understood this is capable of hitting targets at a range of 1,242 miles.
Meanwhile, Russia says it also destroyed Ukrainian military radio and reconnaissance centres near the port city of Odesa using a coastal missile system.
 
Fifth general down. Starting to think that some of them might have been killed by FSB for not being able to execute their tasks.
 
Putin sees it differently, although I don't know enough to say if he's correct.

He said about a fortnight before the invasion that if Ukraine gained NATO membership, along with its recent military overhaul, it is possible Ukraine would be emboldened enough to attempt to recapture Crimea. He feared that in this situation, they could invoke article 5 when Russia started bombing Ukrainian airfields in response.

This scenario would put NATO in direct conflict with Russia with Ukraine having "started it" (which is a bit rich since Russia annexed Crimea in 2014).

Regardless, in that very specific scenario he claims to see NATO as a threat, or at least a NATO backed Ukraine. There are a few holes in this theory though, would Ukraine really attempt to take Crimea and expect NATO backing if they gained membership? None of us can really say, seems unlikely on the face of things. Second, what does the current invasion of Ukraine actually achieve in regard to the theoretical scenario Putin described above? I can't see it making any difference unless Russia takes Kiev and installs a puppet government, one that allows them to retain a constant military force in Ukraine. Or maybe they hope that as part of the peace treaty, Ukraine pledges never to join NATO. I digress, but Putin has given reasons as to why he considers NATO a threat - that effectively it embolden his enemies. Whether this is true, or even if he actually believes it, we'll likely never know.
Wasn't the idea of Ukraine joining NATO around before Russia went into Crimea? Seems a bit odd that you might worry about that after.
Was there any indication that NATO was willing to accept Ukraine with the territory dispute going on?
 
I noticed on Thursday watching ITV news there was only one piece on news coverage covering the war compared to even a week before where it was the only thing being covered.

I hope I'm wrong but I feel war fatigue may kick in with the west and arguably it already has. Even if we look at this thread, last week i come back on here after sleeping and it's double figure pages to catch up on, now it's four at most.
 
I noticed on Thursday watching ITV news there was only one piece on news coverage covering the war compared to even a week before where it was the only thing being covered.

I hope I'm wrong but I feel war fatigue may kick in with the west and arguably it already has. Even if we look at this thread, last week i come back on here after sleeping and it's double figure pages to catch up on, now it's four at most.
There's not much happening in all honesty in terms of big developments. Kyiv is the big fish but Russians haven't been able to properly reach and attack it.
 
I noticed on Thursday watching ITV news there was only one piece on news coverage covering the war compared to even a week before where it was the only thing being covered.

I hope I'm wrong but I feel war fatigue may kick in with the west and arguably it already has. Even if we look at this thread, last week i come back on here after sleeping and it's double figure pages to catch up on, now it's four at most.

It definitely has already kicked in, yes - you're not wrong. There's no new significant development from a western pov, more or less stagnation, which is why people stopped paying as much attention. And that's okay.
 
It definitely has already kicked in, yes - you're not wrong. There's no new significant development from a western pov, more or less stagnation, which is why people stopped paying as much attention. And that's okay.
When I say worried i was thinking more in the sense of willingness to help (in terms of donations etc). Not saying it makes people bad but it's human nature to not be as on the ball 6 months in as it is 2 weeks in (another example would be the slow erosion of things like clap for key workers and the all in this together spirit over the lockdowns).