The vibe out here is quite palpable at the moment.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
The vibe out here is quite palpable at the moment.
An actual, genuine case of ‘cancel culture’, and as is usually the case, it involves a person on the left being fired, and is being cheered on by the freeze peach warriors of the right.
Am I missing something? From what I've read none of what the aforementioned have tweeted is remotely antisemitic. Or have the US just given up pretending that free speech is a thing?
It's like 7th October didn't really happen. They weren't all military. Hundreds of Israeli civilians lost their lives in the most brutal way.
He'll land on his feet if dropped. The man happily jumps out of aeroplanes
Yeah I read that. fecking stupid isn't it?
It's just silly and absolute bullshit.
Actors and people of that fame can make a difference with their words/thoughts etc and are being silenced. The same happened wit hthe BBC coverage of the Scottish BAFTAs. The presenter and winners mentioned "free Palastine" and the BBC edited it out on their BBC iPlayer coverage.
Being pro-Palestinian is conflated as pro-Hamas in many circles in the US at the moment, especially around the entertainment industry.
I'm not sure the goal posts have moved, it's more the nature of this war. A lot of the time you see two armies going at each other. In this case, the Hamas strategy is to use the civilian population as cover.
Article 52 of the Geneva convention says, "Civilian objects shall not be the object of attack or of reprisals. Civilian objects are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 2. ..... military objectives are limited to those objects which by their nature, location, purpose or use make an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage"
Article 8 of the ICC clarifies this, in relation to war crimes, that, "(ix) Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives".
I'd temper that argument with biden sending israel 15 billion dollars worth of weapons this month.
The only reason they can do this stuff, is because of US support. Israel has F35's in the air, with the US painting targets for them via drones.
Which is utterly ludicrous. Couple that to billionaires demanding a blacklist of student protestors as well as legislating to ban the BDS movement, the US is alarmingly moving towards soviet levels of censorship when it comes to the issue of Israel.
Its not just silly. Its incredibly dangerous.
Because the oldest, most dangerous antisemitic trope of them all is that Jewish people control everything. Its the one the nazis used from the early 30's to demonise the Jewish population, preparing the German civilians to justify what they eventually did.
And this stuff plays right into precisely what the david ickes and the rest are still spouting today.
Are they silenced indeed? Or they actually get more followers? Are the channels they spoke through closed? They can speak no more?
Are they silenced in the same way as Navalnyj is or Sentsov was?
A very important point indeed.
Global anti-semitism is worringly rife at the moment, what doesn't help is diluting the concern around it by conflating any condemnation of Israel's crimes as an endorsement of terrorism or anti-semitism. It also doesn't help when organisations like the ADL are also guilty of the same conflation while praising Elon Musk for muzzling pro Palestinian sentiments, the same Musk who himself had retweeted anti-semitic tropes to little concern or condemnation from the same organisation.
You've had actors dropped from movies or their talent agencies because they had the sheer audacity to offer some form of solidarity with the suffering inflicted on the Palestinians. Just because they aren't being thrown into jail cells or being tortured doesn't mean they aren't being silenced. You can argue semantics all you like but the fact they're being punished for holding a view.
Does a large, running hospital become a legitimate target because intel suggests there may be something nefarious occurring inside part of it? I'm sure these are the grey areas Israel are taking advantage of, but to me the answer still remains no.
With no proper 3rd party assessments of anything, they can claim whatever they want, essentially.
The 14 billion package to Israel hasn't actually happened yet. Its still being debated in Congress alongside another 60b for Ukraine.
That's just the climate we're in at the moment. Very similar to post 9/11 in the US, but on a smaller scale. The only outliers being Gen Z college types and fringe leftists (basically the people you see at protests).
I'm absolutely shocked by the concerted will to silence any kind of criticism of Israel's policy in Palestine. I didn't expect the mainstream media in western Europe or the US to be balanced and boy, they didn't disappoint. Antisemitism and/or supporting Hamas is one thing, but to be fired or cancelled because one supports the Palestinian people or sometimes for even being Palestinian is absolute madness. Those are truly dark times.
In Leipzig (Germany) the Irish folk group Lankun's gig has been cancelled for showing support to the Palestinians. (They still sold out in Berlin, Hamburg and Cologne, to be fair)
Palestinian artist Emily Jacir's talk scheduled in Berlin was cancelled.
Palestinian author Adna Shibli's award ceremony in Frankfurt's Book Fair was cancelled. " Due to the war started by Hamas, under which millions of people in Israel and Palestine are suffering, the organizer Litprom e.V. is looking for a suitable format and setting for the event at a later point. Awarding the prize to Adania Shibli was never in question and Litprom firmly rejects the accusations and defamations made against the author and the novel in parts of the press as unfounded (she was unfairly slated by a part of the press, notably TAZ and Die Welt, two big newspapers in Germany, and labelled as antisemite)" .
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When someone's livelihood or future prospects are threatened because of what they say or may say... Yes, to me that is being silenced.
You can always count on the Germans to be the worst balanced. They never disappoint.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/21/politics/negotiations-israel-hamas-hostages/index.html
Even though it is good for some, but the attack will resume after a few days. I am not sure why Hamas would agree to that unless there are a few major details that we are missing.
Even though it is good for some, but the attack will resume after a few days. I am not sure why Hamas would agree to that unless there are a few major details that we are missing.
I'm nitpicking here a little bit, but let me interrogate the bolded bit.
We're constantly hearing this notion of Hamas deliberately using civilians as cover as if it were their modus operandi in conflict. However considering the nature of the battleground and Hamas' area of operations - i.e Gaza, a densely populated and very small territory, where else would you expect to find Hamas combatants? Because I'd very much doubt they'd be as naïve as to conveniently line up on an open field somewhere where they'd be easy pickings. They don't have a conventional military with an airforce, navy or anything remotely rivalling Israel's prowess, so you'd assume they'd be leveraging a guerrilla campaign.
Furthermore, let's assume they were hiding underneath the hospital (which as we know has yet to be proven). Does that still make the hospital a morally legitimate target? Especially if no ordnance or munitions have been fired from the hospital - hence the hospital site itself being of no threat to the Israelis?
I disagree with what happened to her, but there is a certain risk one takes on board when becoming a public, political advocate for controversial issues, at which point employers or perspective employers and/or business associates have the right decline working with said person.
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Do you think other actors and Hollywood people will be coming out to say anything even remotely in favour of Palestine after this. Of course not, unless they want to get fired.
Well, the semantics or words are important indeed.
If they are punished for expression of solidarity, that is of course wrong. If they are punished for holding antisemitic views, that is a completely different issue. Until it is established exactly who said what there is no point in passing judgement.
If there are repercussions in their business relations, it is between them and the other contractual party (like movie/tv studios). But they are not being silenced. They in fact get more traffic and their voice is heard more.
Oh no doubt mate, I'm just saying MBS has never came across as the sharpest knife in the drawer.
For a lot of people (including that production company it seems) anything remotely critical of Israel and it's actions is tantamount to antisemitism.
Neither Amy Schumer or the Stranger Things kid have suffered any consequences for far more robust backing of Israel.
It is silencing if what they say has an undesirable effect to their livelihoods to the extent it deters others from sharing similar sentiments at fear of their own livelihoods.
In Iran, Syria or Putin's Russia you get thrown into jail or lose your life if you say the 'wrong' things. In the US you lose your job and are blacklisted. Granted there's no equivalence in terms of the severity of the repercussions, but its the same principle.
Of course if what they say is objectively deemed anti-semitic, then it should rightly be punished. However none of these recent examples remotely allude to anti-semitic sentiment. These actors have merely expressed solidarity for the Palestinians and at worst labelled Israel's actions as genocidal, which while a strong subjective take on it, hardly brushes with antisemitic rhetoric.
I just find it interesting that these people got dropped/punished but Amy Schumer and Gal Gadot are doing just fine. Surely that's a double standard?
Because its a social norm in the US to back Israel, which deductively means supporting the Palestinians is viewed as being anti-Israel, and thus going against social norms (the only exceptions being the two groups I listed above and various Arab-American groups).
Again, it depends what they actually say.
Look at what Marc Ruffalo said:
I highly doubt he will have any problems. He speaks clearly in favour of Palestine. And any sane person will agree with his message.
What you're saying is correct and in some ways, you're making Nick's point for him. Hamas are a non-state actor paramilitary group who use insurgent, paramilitary type tactics to their advantage against a well armed and trained opposition with far more sophisticated weapons. So why wouldn't they utilize everything from hostage taking, tunnels, bunkers, masking their command and control apparatus behind civilian infrastructure and all of the rest of it, to their advantage ? They are simply doing what they can to stack the odds in their favor against a far superior opposition, so maybe its time to simply come to terms with their tactics, because that's all they have to work with.
That is a fair point and there a fair few who have asked for a cease fire as well. My wording should have been any criticism of Israel is a no go for Hollywood which is still wrong. I didn't find anything I read in the BBC article to be antisemitic.
I mean assuming that's their plan it clearly doesn't work. They know (well before this latest exchange) that Israel isn't deterred from attacking civilian infrastructure, so they'd know that no where in particular is safe from them. Knowing Israel's shoot first policy and complete aversion to preventing civilian casualties, there's no benefit to Hamas hiding anywhere in particular. And besides the point, it doesn't make a hospital a morally legitimate target, especially if the hospital itself isn't being used as a site to launch attacks.
Whether it was used by Hamas or not, it's hardly uncommon for enemy infrastructure, weapons and other equipment to be repurposed.
And the fact the Israel know about it isn't necessarily a negative for Hamas. In fact, it would be quite clever of them to have used it in order to deceive Israeli intelligence and hide their real base of operations.
I'm not saying that's what they did either.
I do understand, support of Israel is entrenched, and for good reason too. When we in the UK were turning away Jewish immigrants in the thirties, the US embraced them.
But that noah lad is running around hollywood putting up stickers about every Palestinian is hammas and such nonsense.
Compared to what he did, and the awful stuff schumer posted, in which she said people asking for a ceasefire were baby rapists, among other stuff, the people actually suffering consequences seem very tame.
It is jarring to see how different the responses are, and as I said earlier, I think its a dangerous situation that plays into the conspiracy theorists hands.
And I think everybody would agree with your wording above.
IMO the BBC article is inclusive at best. There are just interpretations. We have the interpretation of production company which says it was antisemitic. But we have just a few snippets/words of what the actress actually said.
You're arguing against a point I didn't make, I simply said that there is no way they would have made the place their main command centre. I have zero doubt they are using various places like hospitals in some capacity, it doesn't excuse what is going on in terms of targeting, though.
It's because of the claim of genocide and ethnic cleansing.
Pro-Israeli people understand that this association with words like "genocide", "ethnic cleansing", "apartheid", is extremely damaging and are clamping down on it as hard as humanly possible.
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