Westminster Politics

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Mr Pigeon said:
The bit before for context. Also, isn't Lord Mandelson Jewish?
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Are you trying to say anti semitism in the Labour Party and supporting Israel is link!?

Once again labour voters are playing into dangerous conspiracy theories. Starmer has clearly not dealt with the problems within the party. Very dangerous times.

Btw this is a bit. But still funny to see the sudden need for context when it’s labour right wingers facing claims of anti semitism.
 
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Sweet Square said:
Labour have a massive lead so as random individuals on a football forum the impact is meaningless. And both Labour and Tory agree on economic policy(More austerity)so it doesn’t really matter anyway.

Voting in the next election isn’t important. Personally I’m not going walk to a voting booth in the pissing rain so guardian readers can feel happy about cutting disability benefits.
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No offence but when Owen Jones who was hardly a Starmer friendly columnist before the Israei invasion of Gaza (and obviously even more vociferous since then) is a lead Guardian columnist I am not sure how this dig sticks. If anything it is the opposite. This is like saying when Corbyn was leader his support were wildly out of touch because they were a bunch of downwardly mobile rich kids pretending to be working class but have never worked a "real job" in their life.
 
nimic said:
Usually I say "The US is fecked", but let's not forget that the UK is fecked too. This ELECTED MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT really thought that the UN went ahead and not only had a meeting where they decided to plan "the end of the family unit" (and all the other crazy and cringe shit), but then they went ahead and put it on a nice formal document.

GHSu75OWsAAA0Id
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The irony of people claiming there is a hidden secret society agenda to dismantle society like this is if it were true the people doing it aren't doing a very good job if every nutjob 5g conspiracy theorist can get their hands on it.
 
Boycott said:
No offence but when Owen Jones who was hardly a Starmer friendly columnist before the Israei invasion of Gaza (and obviously even more vociferous since then) is a lead Guardian columnist I am not sure how this dig sticks. If anything it is the opposite. This is like saying when Corbyn was leader his support were wildly out of touch because they were a bunch of downwardly mobile rich kids pretending to be working class but have never worked a "real job" in their life.
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Tbh I stopped reading after the first line. Still I'm happy for you. Or sorry that happened.
 
Sweet Square said:
Are you trying to say anti semitism in the Labour Party and supporting Israel is link!?

Once again labour voters are playing into dangerous conspiracy theories. Starmer has clearly not dealt with the problems within the party. Very dangerous times.

Btw this is a bit. But still funny to see the sudden need for context when it’s labour right wingers facing claims of anti semitism.
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He is not trying to say anything. It's literally a text you can read by yourself and draw your own conclusion.
 
Sweet Square said:
Are you trying to say anti semitism in the Labour Party and supporting Israel is link!?

Once again labour voters are playing into dangerous conspiracy theories. Starmer has clearly not dealt with the problems within the party. Very dangerous times.

Btw this is a bit. But still funny to see the sudden need for context when it’s labour right wingers facing claims of anti semitism.
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No I didn't say that, and quite frankly I'm pissed off at what you're accusing me of.

I'm glad you find the whole thing so fecking hilarious.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I mean, if you wait around for people who align to your ideals or who "represent you" (what a vague term) then you'll be waiting a long time.

Like, what politician would you say represents the opposite of you?

Because for me, it's the Tories, they're the ones who I disagree with the most and whom I despise.

So my representation is who ever can get this virus out of parliament.

I don't agree with Labour on a lot but they have the best shot. I can't take and the county can't take another five years of this cancer.
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Anyone that hates the Tories, and will abstain or protest vote against Labour at the election, is every single bit as bad as the ‘hold your nose Tories’ who vote blue regardless of Party policy or direction.

They can wang on about the whys and wherefores, but ultimately, they’re children living in a fantasy world. An opportunity is there to decimate the Tories. To beat them so badly that they won’t be back for 15 years. To pass that up, because you can’t get all the toys you want, immediately… babies.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
No I didn't say that, and quite frankly I'm pissed off at what you're accusing me of.
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I guess my bad if it wasn’t clear but I wasn’t actually accusing you of anything. I was acting like how many right wingers/centrist did during the Corbyn years(Which was saying anyone who wanted to add context was denying anti semitism)in order to show how stupid those years were.

Mr Pigeon said:
I'm glad you find the whole thing so fecking hilarious.
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Starmer and Mandelson in the name of fighting anti semitism(Although it was of course just a factional power play)wanted to kick out a left wing MP for tweeting a correct article which said American police get Israeli training. It’s now funny seeing Starmer and Mandelson getting accused of bullshit anti semitism charges.

Similarly James O Brian who called Corbyn a Holocaust denier is now getting called anti semitic because he talked about islamophobia. Watching these right wingers/centrist reap what they sow is bitter but funny.
 
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UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Anyone that hates the Tories, and will abstain or protest vote against Labour at the election, is every single bit as bad as the ‘hold your nose Tories’ who vote blue regardless of Party policy or direction.

They can wang on about the whys and wherefores, but ultimately, they’re children living in a fantasy world. An opportunity is there to decimate the Tories. To beat them so badly that they won’t be back for 15 years. To pass that up, because you can’t get all the toys you want, immediately… babies.
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I hate the Tories but I'm not necessarily voting Labour. Although they've been a shambles lately, I have the SNP as an option, after that I like the Greens.
I voted Labour for the first time in a while under Corbyn. Up until a couple of years ago, I probably would have voted Labour but Starmer has moved the party closer and closer to the Tories that I genuinely don't see much difference. One party will cut services and let the well off pay less tax as a proporion of their income whilst telling me I deserve it, and the other will still do it whilst wringing their hands.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Anyone that hates the Tories, and will abstain or protest vote against Labour at the election, is every single bit as bad as the ‘hold your nose Tories’ who vote blue regardless of Party policy or direction.

They can wang on about the whys and wherefores, but ultimately, they’re children living in a fantasy world. An opportunity is there to decimate the Tories. To beat them so badly that they won’t be back for 15 years. To pass that up, because you can’t get all the toys you want, immediately… babies.
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This isn't a great take, there's almost a 0% chance that the Conservatives don't get badly beat in the upcoming election. Hell they're getting tanked in safe seats in by elections.

I would've voted Labour but I and a lot of people I know will go for the Greens, both due to their environmental policies and because of their foreign policy stances. Labour know that centrists won elections, which is true, but they've basically become Conservative light for me. Scrapping all the green pledges, no noticeable housing or business plans outside of sound bites, being aligned with the conservatives on foreign policy r.e. things like Gaza.. there's not really much to like there. Voting for them just because they're not the Conservatives doesn't mean anything, policies do.

Will Labour leave the country in a better state than the Conservatives? Of course, they always do. But I've seen nothing from Starmer or the likes of Reeves to suggest they'll come anywhere near close to implementing the things that will really help the country.. and ultimately that's what we need. There's so many things in this country that needs fixing and it isn't super hard to do so, I could go on and on about it, but everytime I read about Labour policies I'm left feeling distinctly underwhelmed.
 
Reiver said:
I hate the Tories but I'm not necessarily voting Labour. Although they've been a shambles lately, I have the SNP as an option, after that I like the Greens.
I voted Labour for the first time in a while under Corbyn. Up until a couple of years ago, I probably would have voted Labour but Starmer has moved the party closer and closer to the Tories that I genuinely don't see much difference. One party will cut services and let the well off pay less tax as a proporion of their income whilst telling me I deserve it, and the other will still do it whilst wringing their hands.
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The two parties are further apart now than at any point in the last 30 years. There are light years between them. Yes Labour have moved right to win. I don’t like it. But I’m a realist. People don’t seem to realise that they Tories are full on Fascist.

Fully support you and anyone voting for any electable Green/SNP/LibDem MP in your constituency. I can even understand a Green vote in a truly bombproof Labour stronghold. But anyone not voting Labour in a Labour-Tory seat, or abstains, shouldn’t be allowed to talk politics again. Every single one of them needs to go. If any of the right wing grifter set retain seats by small margins, it’s on those people. They will be the ones that embolden the hard right. If they’re not purged, they’ll remain a loud voice. It’s beyond countenance to stay home or vote Green in those seats.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Anyone that hates the Tories, and will abstain or protest vote against Labour at the election, is every single bit as bad as the ‘hold your nose Tories’ who vote blue regardless of Party policy or direction.

They can wang on about the whys and wherefores, but ultimately, they’re children living in a fantasy world. An opportunity is there to decimate the Tories. To beat them so badly that they won’t be back for 15 years. To pass that up, because you can’t get all the toys you want, immediately… babies.
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So you're saying this is a great opportunity to replace a genocidal government with another genocidal government. And if I don't do what you say I've brought it on myself?

Right, gotcha, silly me and my fantasy world where while I type that out another fantasy baby dies an avoidable death through starvation, or shooting, or bombing. Woe me, with my why's and wherefores. :rolleyes:
 
Dumbstar said:
So you're saying this is a great opportunity to replace a genocidal government with another genocidal government. And if I don't do what you say I've brought it on myself?

Right, gotcha, silly me and my fantasy world where while I type that out another fantasy baby dies an avoidable death through starvation, or shooting, or bombing. Woe me, with my why's and wherefores. :rolleyes:
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Are you ok? Why the hell are you inserting genocide into the equation? You know you don’t get to claim the moral high ground by reaching for some shocking words?

My girlfriend is ethnically Jewish. Her grandfather survived a camp. Her mother has both a Syrian and Iranian refugee living in her house. We’ve marched through London in all but one of the rallies so far. I watch all of them juggle their ethnic identity and genuine fear, with an absolute disgust for Netanyahu and everything attached.

Life is not simple and shouting Genocide at the top of your lungs makes you an oaf.

So yes, stay home. Turn on the news every day and hope that some Unicorn government comes along that gives you everything you want. Then strap a saddle on it, and ride it all on your own as half of this demented country won’t vote for it because a newspaper will call it gay while another 20 point out it’s an immigrant.

Honestly, I wish I could round you all up, move you to one large town and let you all live there together under a Tory MP. The rest of us can at least attempt to have slightly nicer things for a decade while you wait for your white, sexy, horny, horse.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
The two parties are further apart now than at any point in the last 30 years. There are light years between them. Yes Labour have moved right to win. I don’t like it. But I’m a realist. People don’t seem to realise that they Tories are full on Fascist.
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Do you really think that on policy Labour the Tories are further apart now than at the last GE, or the one before?
 
I don’t buy that Starmer has walked back that big policy to try and retain fiscally conservative voters. I appreciate the argument that you spend on those policies in those industries and get it all back but I can also see why, right now, putting the breaks on is sensible. I don’t consider myself conservative.

If the Tories aren’t wiped out and have too loud a voice after the next GE it makes any chance of doing any good that bit more difficult.

The thought of the Tories getting away with 14 years of misery due to the last 4/5 months is exasperating.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Do you really think that on policy Labour the Tories are further apart now than at the last GE, or the one before?
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Yes. Because the current Tory party doesn’t even offer up a sliver of hope. Not even a pretence of National fairness. They give a loud voice to racist MP’s and they are on tv every single day promoting policy that 100% makes tens of thousands of vulnerable peoples lives worse. It’s not hiding the way it did under Boris or May. It’s not a small fringe. That tail is now wagging the whole dog. The thought of there being 100 Tories left is abhorrent to me. It would galvanise them and they’d be so fecking noisy.

I’m not a big Starmer guy. But I think he’s capable, decent, and actually wants to do the right thing. I also believe that a successful first term of work, sees a daring manifesto for a second term. His policies and plan remain to the left of Blair’s.

The idea of not voting anti-Tory is just so feeble. Imagine staying home and seeing your local seat held by a Tory. It should be an obliteration. Mick Lynch called it right when he said people on the left need to grow up.
 
Nadine Dorries, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, George Osbourne, Matt Hancock, Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Andrew Bridgen, Priti Patel, Lee Anderson, Liz Truss, Mark Francois, Andrea Jenkyns, John Redwood, David Cameron, Steve Baker, Therese Coffey, Michael Gove, Grant Shapps etc

What an absolute shit show. I’ll be absolutely amazed if Starmer assembles anything anywhere near as bad as this lot.
 
Ady87 said:
Nadine Dorries, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, George Osbourne, Matt Hancock, Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Andrew Bridgen, Priti Patel, Lee Anderson, Liz Truss, Mark Francois, Andrea Jenkyns, John Redwood, David Cameron, Steve Baker, Therese Coffey, Michael Gove, Grant Shapps etc

What an absolute shit show. I’ll be absolutely amazed if Starmer assembles anything anywhere near as bad as this lot.
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Basically, all the ones who've had a lot of exposure.

Its because they have no policies to improve the country. Privatisation failed. They've got little left to sell. In truth, they've been living off soundbites and BS since 2008.
 
Sweet Square said:
Starmer must condemn and sack Mandelson or Labour will remain a unsafe and racist party.
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Will you stop bitching about it if he does it? (rhetorical question)

Btw, Pavlos Gluksburg is not the crown prince of Greece. We don't have that kingdom bullshit over there, so british media need to get up to speed.
 
Reiver said:
I hate the Tories but I'm not necessarily voting Labour. Although they've been a shambles lately, I have the SNP as an option, after that I like the Greens.
I voted Labour for the first time in a while under Corbyn. Up until a couple of years ago, I probably would have voted Labour but Starmer has moved the party closer and closer to the Tories that I genuinely don't see much difference. One party will cut services and let the well off pay less tax as a proporion of their income whilst telling me I deserve it, and the other will still do it whilst wringing their hands.
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Why do you think he's "moved the party closer to the Tories?"
 
Ady87 said:
Nadine Dorries, Jacob Rees-Mogg, Suella Braverman, George Osbourne, Matt Hancock, Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Andrew Bridgen, Priti Patel, Lee Anderson, Liz Truss, Mark Francois, Andrea Jenkyns, John Redwood, David Cameron, Steve Baker, Therese Coffey, Michael Gove, Grant Shapps etc

What an absolute shit show. I’ll be absolutely amazed if Starmer assembles anything anywhere near as bad as this lot.
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You're forgetting the 2019 intake. Gullis etx
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Yes. Because the current Tory party doesn’t even offer up a sliver of hope. Not even a pretence of National fairness. They give a loud voice to racist MP’s and they are on tv every single day promoting policy that 100% makes tens of thousands of vulnerable peoples lives worse. It’s not hiding the way it did under Boris or May. It’s not a small fringe. That tail is now wagging the whole dog. The thought of there being 100 Tories left is abhorrent to me. It would galvanise them and they’d be so fecking noisy.

I’m not a big Starmer guy. But I think he’s capable, decent, and actually wants to do the right thing. I also believe that a successful first term of work, sees a daring manifesto for a second term. His policies and plan remain to the left of Blair’s.

The idea of not voting anti-Tory is just so feeble. Imagine staying home and seeing your local seat held by a Tory. It should be an obliteration. Mick Lynch called it right when he said people on the left need to grow up.
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Amen.

People forget that Tory voters are being courted by Labour. Alas modern day leftists really don't care, they just want their echo chamber to get what they all agree on. It's why they suck at elections.

It's about compromise and getting as many people moving in a similar direction.

If you want a party to only cater to your beliefs then you're effectively saying you don't believe in collaboration or indeed a liberal democracy.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Anyone that hates the Tories, and will abstain or protest vote against Labour at the election, is every single bit as bad as the ‘hold your nose Tories’ who vote blue regardless of Party policy or direction.

They can wang on about the whys and wherefores, but ultimately, they’re children living in a fantasy world. An opportunity is there to decimate the Tories. To beat them so badly that they won’t be back for 15 years. To pass that up, because you can’t get all the toys you want, immediately… babies.
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Do you know what would actually decimate the Tories? Proportional representation. But we already know that's not something this current Labour party is interested in. Starmer has far more of an opportunity to actually do something about the way politics in this country works but for some reason the onus is on individual voters to do something about it.

I'm sure you'll find some way to excuse his decisions whilst blaming lefties who don't want to vote for Tory lite though.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Are you ok? Why the hell are you inserting genocide into the equation? You know you don’t get to claim the moral high ground by reaching for some shocking words?

My girlfriend is ethnically Jewish. Her grandfather survived a camp. Her mother has both a Syrian and Iranian refugee living in her house. We’ve marched through London in all but one of the rallies so far. I watch all of them juggle their ethnic identity and genuine fear, with an absolute disgust for Netanyahu and everything attached.

Life is not simple and shouting Genocide at the top of your lungs makes you an oaf.

So yes, stay home. Turn on the news every day and hope that some Unicorn government comes along that gives you everything you want. Then strap a saddle on it, and ride it all on your own as half of this demented country won’t vote for it because a newspaper will call it gay while another 20 point out it’s an immigrant.

Honestly, I wish I could round you all up, move you to one large town and let you all live there together under a Tory MP. The rest of us can at least attempt to have slightly nicer things for a decade while you wait for your white, sexy, horny, horse.
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Why the hell am I inserting genocide? Fecking hell. This is the world we are living in now.
 
"Punish. Punish. PUNISH!"
"But what about what we're rewarding?"
"You child!"
Overton Window slides right.

Yeah. Makes sense.
 
Sweet Square said:
Did she not realise this means she is saying the party is lying to the public in order to win votes ?
Oh you don’t agree with Starmer well don’t worry he is actually just lying all the time! I guess the lack of policy means this is the only “argument” they’ve got but it seems very strange to brag about to voters.

A political party which would completely change policy when in power would be pretty bad for any democracy regardless of their politics.

We live in a strange world where both insane media like GB news and labour campaigners agree there is a socialist conspiracy to take over the British government by stealth.
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Also, democratic politics does not work in that way. You can't bring a mass party to electoral victory on one kind of platform, and then just dramatically change tack once you're in office. Thousands of people are involved in carrying out policy and explaining it to voters around the country. They have to share a common sense of where things are heading and why and how, or that doesn't work.
 
It's quite telling that those who demand a Labour vote are having to resort to complete lies and simple myths with emotive rants.

No one is chasing a perfect party that represents all their beliefs. Most here voted Starmer over the more left candidate because he was a compromise candidate, except it turns out he wasn't he lied.

All that's happening is people have some red lines on how far right Labour can go before they'll lose a vote. Some of you here have no such line, some have the reverse and voted against Corbyn.

Personally climate change is too big of an issue for me so I'll be voting green. Getting rid of every Tory isn't half as important as signalling to the next government they have to chase green votes not Tories going forward.
 
justsomebloke said:
You can't bring a mass party to electoral victory on one kind of platform, and then just dramatically change tack once you're in office.
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The Tories have done it (HS2, "The Plan for Drivers", recruiting more NHS staff, NI freeze etc)
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Yes. Because the current Tory party doesn’t even offer up a sliver of hope. Not even a pretence of National fairness. They give a loud voice to racist MP’s and they are on tv every single day promoting policy that 100% makes tens of thousands of vulnerable peoples lives worse. It’s not hiding the way it did under Boris or May. It’s not a small fringe. That tail is now wagging the whole dog. The thought of there being 100 Tories left is abhorrent to me. It would galvanise them and they’d be so fecking noisy.

I’m not a big Starmer guy. But I think he’s capable, decent, and actually wants to do the right thing. I also believe that a successful first term of work, sees a daring manifesto for a second term. His policies and plan remain to the left of Blair’s.

The idea of not voting anti-Tory is just so feeble. Imagine staying home and seeing your local seat held by a Tory. It should be an obliteration. Mick Lynch called it right when he said people on the left need to grow up.
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Excellent post. Mick Lynch was spot on as usual.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Yes. Because the current Tory party doesn’t even offer up a sliver of hope. Not even a pretence of National fairness. They give a loud voice to racist MP’s and they are on tv every single day promoting policy that 100% makes tens of thousands of vulnerable peoples lives worse. It’s not hiding the way it did under Boris or May. It’s not a small fringe. That tail is now wagging the whole dog. The thought of there being 100 Tories left is abhorrent to me. It would galvanise them and they’d be so fecking noisy.

I’m not a big Starmer guy. But I think he’s capable, decent, and actually wants to do the right thing. I also believe that a successful first term of work, sees a daring manifesto for a second term. His policies and plan remain to the left of Blair’s.

The idea of not voting anti-Tory is just so feeble. Imagine staying home and seeing your local seat held by a Tory. It should be an obliteration. Mick Lynch called it right when he said people on the left need to grow up.
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Fantastic post. Priority number one is getting them out.

And the idea that labour are no different to the torys is laughable teenager just getting into politics rhetoric.
 
Blaming people for not voting Labour because it will get the Tories out isn't the fault of the voter, it's the fault of Labour and the system really. Labour are crap and have disenfranchised so many people with their stances. They haven't proved to be anything than a less worse conservative really to many and I don't blame people for thinking that. If you're not part of certain communities (like the Muslim community) then maybe you just don't understand how badly Labour have damaged themselves in the past few months or how much some people in that community feel.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
Yes. Because the current Tory party doesn’t even offer up a sliver of hope. Not even a pretence of National fairness. They give a loud voice to racist MP’s and they are on tv every single day promoting policy that 100% makes tens of thousands of vulnerable peoples lives worse. It’s not hiding the way it did under Boris or May. It’s not a small fringe. That tail is now wagging the whole dog. The thought of there being 100 Tories left is abhorrent to me. It would galvanise them and they’d be so fecking noisy.

I’m not a big Starmer guy. But I think he’s capable, decent, and actually wants to do the right thing. I also believe that a successful first term of work, sees a daring manifesto for a second term. His policies and plan remain to the left of Blair’s.

The idea of not voting anti-Tory is just so feeble. Imagine staying home and seeing your local seat held by a Tory. It should be an obliteration. Mick Lynch called it right when he said people on the left need to grow up.
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Nailed it.
 
SilentWitness said:
Blaming people for not voting Labour because it will get the Tories out isn't the fault of the voter, it's the fault of Labour and the system really. Labour are crap and have disenfranchised so many people with their stances. They haven't proved to be anything than a less worse conservative really to many and I don't blame people for thinking that. If you're not part of certain communities (like the Muslim community) then maybe you just don't understand how badly Labour have damaged themselves in the past few months or how much some people in that community feel.
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All that is driven by the electorate too. Parties wouldn’t have these policies if it wasn’t what wins elections.
 
justsomebloke said:
You can't bring a mass party to electoral victory on one kind of platform, and then just dramatically change tack once you're in office.
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I think you will find you can, almost every government in my life time (except one*) have at some stage change tack, sometimes for convenience, because of pressures, internal /external to the government when they get in power, even the Tories with 85+ majority got caught out with such as Covid, war in Ukraine etc..
Starmer is being honest in as much as he will not promise anything until he's seen the books, at least not until the GE season starts for real.

*( that 1 was Maggie Thatcher's, love her or hate her, she did "what it said on the tin" )
 
Maticmaker said:
I think you will find you can, almost every government in my life time (except one*) have at some stage change tack, sometimes for convenience, because of pressures, internal /external to the government when they get in power, even the Tories with 85+ majority got caught out with such as Covid, war in Ukraine etc..
Starmer is being honest in as much as he will not promise anything until he's seen the books, at least not until the GE season starts for real.

*( that 1 was Maggie Thatcher's, love her or hate her, she did "what it said on the tin" )
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I'm not talking about making some adjustments, or responding to unforeseen changes in circumstances. I'm talking about going into the election as one sort of thing, and then turning yourself into a completely different sort of thing as soon as you're in power. Not easily done, and generally doesn't end well.
 
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