Russian invasion of Ukraine | Fewer tweets, more discussion

Ukraine has enough on its hand containing Russia in the east, and you want them to spend valuable resources on a different front?
 
Ukraine has enough on its hand containing Russia in the east, and you want them to spend valuable resources on a different front?

Yeah, it makes no sense to send troops in there.

A few sabotage operations should be more than enough to knock the pro-Russian faction's capabilities out without a fuss. It's not like Russia can move an entire army division in there without drawing attention; Transnistria is isolated by land anyway.
 
That makes more sense. I can imagine the Moldovans don't want to take a chance on the fighting spreading into actual Moldovan territory beyond Transnistria.
That and no western country will be ok with supplying arms to Ukraine to lead a war outside their boundaries. All countries are supplying arms as defensive mechanism. We already saw far right parties everywhere wanting to drop support. Marching into Moldova or Transnistria will not paint a good outlook.
 
An interesting article about Russia since the start of the war. It's long, but I am brining some parts of it in the original language (French) and in English. It's based on an interview wth Denis Volkov, who " heads the only major reliable polling institute in Russia" according the magazine L'Express.fr .

Mais, outre l’effet drapeau, l’élément déterminant est la situation économique, qui est très stable. Au début du conflit, lorsque les sanctions occidentales ont été instaurées, les gens se sont d’abord rués sur les banques pour retirer leur argent. Mais le gouvernement a réussi à calmer la panique et la population a fait marche arrière.

Non seulement l’économie est stable, mais le gouvernement a multiplié les mesures de redistribution aux plus modestes - hausse des retraites, des salaires des fonctionnaires, élargissement des programmes d’aide sociale aux personnes ayant des enfants à charge, ou pour faciliter l’achat d’un appartement.

Autre élément essentiel, les soldats engagés dans "l’opération militaire spéciale" en Ukraine, qui, pour la plupart, sont originaires de petites villes, ont vu leur rémunération augmenter de façon importante - ils peuvent gagner cinq ou six fois plus qu’auparavant. A cela s’ajoute le fait que lorsqu’un soldat est tué, la famille reçoit environ 5 millions de roubles, soit quelque 50 000 euros. Pour les habitants d’une petite ville russe, c’est une somme énorme.

Selon certaines estimations, les revenus de la population n’ont jamais été aussi élevés depuis des décennies. La majorité est donc très positive quant à la situation économique, ce qui aide à maintenir l’optimisme et la confiance envers le gouvernement.

La part de la classe moyenne a augmenté d’environ 5 points de pourcentage en deux ans, alors qu’elle stagnait auparavant. Ces personnes, dont le pouvoir d’achat progresse, sont généralement liées à l’appareil d’Etat et donc loyales envers celui-ci.
"But, apart from the flag effect, the determining element is the economic situation, which is very stable. At the start of the conflict, when Western sanctions were introduced, people first rushed to banks to withdraw their money. But the government managed to calm the panic and the population backed down.

Not only is the economy stable, but the government has increased redistribution measures for those on the lowest incomes - increases in pensions, civil servants' salaries, expansion of social assistance programs for people with dependent children, or to facilitate purchase of an apartment.

Another key element is that soldiers engaged in the "special military operation" in Ukraine, most of whom come from small towns, have seen their pay increase significantly - they can earn five or six times more than before . Added to this is the fact that when a soldier is killed, the family receives around 5 million rubles, or around 50,000 euros. For residents of a small Russian town, this is a huge amount.

According to some estimates, people's incomes have never been higher in decades. The majority is therefore very positive about the economic situation, which helps maintain optimism and confidence in the government.

The share of the middle class has increased by around 5 percentage points in two years, after previously stagnating. These people, whose purchasing power is increasing, are generally linked to the state apparatus and therefore loyal to it."

"Souhaiteriez-vous que Poutine soit réélu lors des prochaines élections ?" en 2021, à peu près 45 % des personnes interrogées répondaient oui, la moitié souhaitant voir apparaître un nouveau visage. Après le début de la guerre, ce score est progressivement grimpé jusqu’à 80 %. Auparavant, dans les groupes de discussion, les gens pouvaient exprimer des doutes à propos de Poutine, aujourd’hui, ils disent qu’il tient le pays et l’empêche d’être vaincu par l’Occident.
" "Would you like Putin to be re-elected in the next election?"... in 2021, around 45% of those surveyed answered yes, with half wanting to see a new face appear. After the start of the war, this score gradually rose to 80%. Previously, in chat groups, people could express doubts about Putin, today they say that he is holding the country and preventing it from being defeated by the West."
 
Love your post, this is the best part. So its the West fault for all this not Russia. If West has just let Russia do their thing it would be over in weeks and there would be peace? Or better yet with sending arms the West is prolonging the war, the same war Russians actually want to end I guess.
Its not Russia's fault millions of people are fleeing and there are half a million casulties its the west who dragged blameless Russia into war who just wanted peace and normal life. Poor, old Russia.

I guess if Trump becomes president it all comes true, I hope he'll end all this suffering with a peace deal in which Ukraine will let go of its territory. But ups Putin doesnt really want to talk peace now his army has the initiative. He supposedly wanted that only when things werent so rosy, but most probably it was just a propaganda to portray the West as the real agressor.

It seems to me it makes you excited while you write about the mighty Red Army.

Yes.
 
An interesting article about Russia since the start of the war. It's long, but I am brining some parts of it in the original language (French) and in English. It's based on an interview wth Denis Volkov, who " heads the only major reliable polling institute in Russia" according the magazine L'Express.fr .


"But, apart from the flag effect, the determining element is the economic situation, which is very stable. At the start of the conflict, when Western sanctions were introduced, people first rushed to banks to withdraw their money. But the government managed to calm the panic and the population backed down.

Not only is the economy stable, but the government has increased redistribution measures for those on the lowest incomes - increases in pensions, civil servants' salaries, expansion of social assistance programs for people with dependent children, or to facilitate purchase of an apartment.

Another key element is that soldiers engaged in the "special military operation" in Ukraine, most of whom come from small towns, have seen their pay increase significantly - they can earn five or six times more than before . Added to this is the fact that when a soldier is killed, the family receives around 5 million rubles, or around 50,000 euros. For residents of a small Russian town, this is a huge amount.

According to some estimates, people's incomes have never been higher in decades. The majority is therefore very positive about the economic situation, which helps maintain optimism and confidence in the government.

The share of the middle class has increased by around 5 percentage points in two years, after previously stagnating. These people, whose purchasing power is increasing, are generally linked to the state apparatus and therefore loyal to it."


" "Would you like Putin to be re-elected in the next election?"... in 2021, around 45% of those surveyed answered yes, with half wanting to see a new face appear. After the start of the war, this score gradually rose to 80%. Previously, in chat groups, people could express doubts about Putin, today they say that he is holding the country and preventing it from being defeated by the West."
While having stabilized the domestic situation by essentially bribbing people to keep them from, which was the first and a clever thing to do from his point of view, it can't and won't last. He tapped in Russia's financial reserves and there will be a boomerang effect in the coming years.

Predictable.
 
Only one aggressor here, and it's not Ukraine or "the west".

Plenty of evidence - now a mountains worth - that Russia and Ukraine were close to a deal at the start of the war to end it in exchange for Ukraine's neutrality (not entering NATO), but Biden and Boris Johnson blocked it, insisting Zelensky go to war and win.

He went for it and got mauled.
 
This is what all the pro-Russia comments always come down to, in the end. From @DT12 to @Suedesi, from Trump to Orbán, it's the same: they're telling everyone to give up on Ukraine and let Russia win. That's all there is to it. Every argument about how wonderful Russia's economy is, all the handwringing about the West and the feigned concern about Ukrainian casualties, each condescending remark amounts to the same thing: Russia should be allowed to win and do as they see fit with Ukraine.

Once Putin turns to the Baltic states, these people will be back with the exact same message.

It's slightly more nuanced, but I wouldn't expect such subtleties to interrupt the flight path of concepts soaring high above your comprehension.
 
Oh oh but the West can be trusted right, they've proven to be honest brokers, right!?



Oh of course, NATO pushed Russia into attacking Baltic states by accepthing them into the fold. Their posts sound they're from one person who has 2 accounts.

I remember talking to a friend last year, he's pro Russian as you get, he was saying something like Trump didnt start any wars in the sense it was Biden who actually started the war in Ukraine.

Talk about paranoia - to think that every dissenting view is merely a shadow puppet show, orchestrated by a single individual with a dual digital identity.
 
Plenty of evidence - now a mountains worth - that Russia and Ukraine were close to a deal at the start of the war to end it in exchange for Ukraine's neutrality (not entering NATO), but Biden and Boris Johnson blocked it, insisting Zelensky go to war and win.

He went for it and got mauled.
It's always amusing how insane you go, anytime you start talking about specifics.
 
Plenty of evidence - now a mountains worth - that Russia and Ukraine were close to a deal at the start of the war to end it in exchange for Ukraine's neutrality (not entering NATO), but Biden and Boris Johnson blocked it, insisting Zelensky go to war and win.

He went for it and got mauled.
The old "look at what you made me do" domestic abuser justification. Poor putin really had no choice than to invade and kill thousands...
 
Plenty of evidence - now a mountains worth - that Russia and Ukraine were close to a deal at the start of the war to end it in exchange for Ukraine's neutrality (not entering NATO), but Biden and Boris Johnson blocked it, insisting Zelensky go to war and win.

He went for it and got mauled.

You're leaving out the fact that Putin doesn't get to call the shots on who Ukraine, a sovereign nation, elect to align themselves with. Therefore what you're describing is based on a bad presumption.
 
Plenty of evidence - now a mountains worth - that Russia and Ukraine were close to a deal at the start of the war to end it in exchange for Ukraine's neutrality (not entering NATO), but Biden and Boris Johnson blocked it, insisting Zelensky go to war and win.

He went for it and got mauled.

And yet...you haven't provided this evidence.
 
You're leaving out the fact that Putin doesn't get to call the shots on who Ukraine, a sovereign nation, elects to align themselves with. Therefore what you're describing is based on a bad presumption.

Au contraire, apparently, the West calls the shots in Ukraine and got it wrong, leaving Ukraine to pay the price.



 
Au contraire, apparently, the West calls the shots in Ukraine and got it wrong, leaving Ukraine to pay the price.





Nothing in these tweets proves what you previously suggested. The West never called the shots in Ukraine, as its a democratically elected government who call their own shots.
 
Nothing in these tweets proves what you previously suggested. The West never called the shots in Ukraine, as its a democratically elected government who call their own shots.



https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/05/is-the-u-s-actually-trying-to-help-ukraine

Here's former PM of Israel Naftali Bennet, saying that Western leaders blocked Ukraine / Russia peace deal which he negotiated on Zelensky's request in March '22 because they wanted to continue to strike Putin. He says that there was good chance of such deal.
 
It's slightly more nuanced, but I wouldn't expect such subtleties to interrupt the flight path of concepts soaring high above your comprehension.

At least you don't deny you're on the "let Russia win" camp. The mask is finally slipping off .
 

I'm really failing to understand your logic here to be honest. I have summarized in chronological steps to what you believe the timeline of events were. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but let's just assume you are correct.

1. Ukraine and Russia is at peace, sans Little Green men in Donetsk and Luhansk.
2. Russia Invades.
3. War kicks off properly and officially.
4. After X time Russia and Ukraine start negotiating peace deal.
5. Talks scuppered due to Western pressure on Ukrainian side.
6. Bloodbath for 2 years.

That's a reductive summary for what you believe happened right?

So, assuming this is what actually happened...Why do you blame the war on the west for 5) in the series of events, but somehow Russia is not at fault for 2) despite, you know, rolling Combat Battalion groups into Ukraine and launching a full scale invasion?
 
Plenty of evidence - now a mountains worth - that Russia and Ukraine were close to a deal at the start of the war to end it in exchange for Ukraine's neutrality (not entering NATO), but Biden and Boris Johnson blocked it, insisting Zelensky go to war and win.

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Let's ignore for a minute the questionable source, the fact that time is linear and that these supposed negotiations about peace deals took place in March while Russia's invasion of Ukraine began in February (for starters, the Bucha massacre was an ongoing event at the time). And also the fact that at the time everyone thought the UA wouldn't last a month against the RA and therefore strong, decisive actions to support Ukraine and/or punish Russia unfolded very slowly.

By the same source here provided, accepting said peace deals meant Zelensky:

A) Going against Ukraine's constitution (which means he would probably be deposed instantly)
B) Legally recognising Russia's sovereignity over Crimea.
C) Legally recognising the independence of two new republics in his own territory.
D) Trusting the word of a leader that had just recently invaded them, had broken tonnes of agreements before, and was at the moment perpetrating massacres on civilians like the previously mentioned in Bucha.

So... No, you're gonna need something stronger than that.
 


https://www.currentaffairs.org/2022/05/is-the-u-s-actually-trying-to-help-ukraine

Here's former PM of Israel Naftali Bennet, saying that Western leaders blocked Ukraine / Russia peace deal which he negotiated on Zelensky's request in March '22 because they wanted to continue to strike Putin. He says that there was good chance of such deal.

Where does it say that those countries control Ukraine though? Even if Ukraine did want to have a peace treaty (and if that was a realistic prospect) - what's the issue with the UK and US saying 'you're on your own if you do that' ? Are they not allowed to have an opinion and foresee consequences?

I mean, if Ukraine would have been about to sign that treaty and the UK and US would have instantly replaced their leadership with people who wouldn't sign, then sure, Ukraine clearly would have been a puppet state. But even if all you say is true, all that happened is that Ukraine was provided with a choice and choose to stay closely aligned with the UK and the US. Just as all of eastern Europe has had a choice in their geopolitical orientation since the fall of the USSR and have generally consistently chosen to be on the side of the EU and the US.

To me, all this says more about how unattractive the idea of alignment with Russia continues to be. But I don't think that's the point you were trying to make.
 
At least you don't deny you're on the "let Russia win" camp. The mask is finally slipping off .

So dramatic - the mask is slipping off, feckinell. I'd say I'm a realist, and Russia has won on the ground. Unless Ukraine can reverse the course of the war, perhaps it should for peace?
 
I'm really failing to understand your logic here to be honest. I have summarized in chronological steps to what you believe the timeline of events were. I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but let's just assume you are correct.

1. Ukraine and Russia is at peace, sans Little Green men in Donetsk and Luhansk.
2. Russia Invades.
3. War kicks off properly and officially.
4. After X time Russia and Ukraine start negotiating peace deal.
5. Talks scuppered due to Western pressure on Ukrainian side.
6. Bloodbath for 2 years.

That's a reductive summary for what you believe happened right?

So, assuming this is what actually happened...Why do you blame the war on the west for 5) in the series of events, but somehow Russia is not at fault for 2) despite, you know, rolling Combat Battalion groups into Ukraine and launching a full scale invasion?

Let's start at time 0: US conspires to overthrow the democratically elected government in Ukraine through the Maidan coup, picks the successor gov't and sets it for collision with Russia, in order to fight a proxy war with a longstanding adversary.
 
Let's start at time 0: US conspires to overthrow the democratically elected government in Ukraine through the Maidan coup, picks the successor gov't and sets it for collision with Russia, in order to fight a proxy war with a longstanding adversary.

Interesting. I was there in 2013 (note the protests did not kick off in 2014) in the first set of protests.

My partner's brother in law was one of the Майдан organizers, as he was working as a parliamentary assistant to Kyrylenko. I had dinner with many figures in the movement such as Igor Lutsenko, Irena Karper and Olek Sushko . Many of them I still remain in contact with through various forms of media despite not stepping foot in Ukraine since 2016. I've even had a conversation with Poroshenko. A lot of my time in Kyiv was spent discussing what was going on, the motivations, what the org groups wanted.

Are you saying that all my Ukrainian friends and family of my partner are all....American stooges?
 
Interesting. I was there in 2013 (note the protests did not kick off in 2014) in the first set of protests.

My partner's brother in law was one of the Майдан organizers, as he was working as a parliamentary assistant to Kyrylenko. I had dinner with many figures in the movement such as Igor Lutsenko, Irena Karper and Olek Sushko . Many of them I still remain in contact with through various forms of media despite not stepping foot in Ukraine since 2016. I've even had a conversation with Poroshenko. A lot of my time in Kyiv was spent discussing what was going on, the motivations, what the org groups wanted.

Are you saying that all my Ukrainian friends and family of my partner are all....American stooges?
Don't bother. This is straight out of the Russian playbook again: they also say and even teach it in their schools that the 1956 uprising in Hungary was also somehow a CIA operation.
 
Plenty of evidence - now a mountains worth - that Russia and Ukraine were close to a deal at the start of the war to end it in exchange for Ukraine's neutrality (not entering NATO), but Biden and Boris Johnson blocked it, insisting Zelensky go to war and win.

He went for it and got mauled.

That's just plain wrong. You are just repeating Putin's propaganda lies.

The wall street journal article a few weeks ago refuted this thesis.

Ukraine was ready to negotiate but Russia didn't. Instead they came up with a catalog, which was simply unacceptable.
Demilitarize the Ukraine and leaving the country helpless to answer a new Russian aggression in the future. Not allowed to join NATO. Crimea staying under Russian rule. No solution about the occupied parts in the east of Ukraine.

Selensky was ready to negotiate with Putin. However, Putin refused to sit down with Selensky. The Russian negotiators were low level bureaucrats who had no real power to take decisions. Lavrow was their for a couple of days but only stated he doesn't have the authority to take any decisions. It was a farce!

During the negotiations the killing of hundreds of innocent civilians in Butcha happened. Mariupol was completely annihilated.

So please stop spouting this nonsense about Russia being serious about peace talks.
 
Right on cue. :lol:
Of all the pro Russian lines the 'West is at fault for Russian's agression and not the ones who are doing it' is the best one.
I'd love to hear your views on Ukrainian statehood and history.

Talk about paranoia - to think that every dissenting view is merely a shadow puppet show, orchestrated by a single individual with a dual digital identity.
Its not about paranoia, its about your posts sounding like every other pro Russian one.

Whatever they say you just believe it and repeat it. For instance that notion they're aways ready to talk about peace. Sure, we're bombing you, killing you, turning your cities into a rubble but why wont you talk to us.
That line about a deal at the start of the war is hilarious. Russians were massing their troops and after they started the attack they were already ready for a deal. Sure mate.

And yet...you haven't provided this evidence.
Evidence is - trust me bro.
 
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Why can't you people treat dissenting views, such as non-linear time, with respect they deserve?
 
Russians have launched a massive missile attack on Kiev.

They're ready to talk about a peace deal.
 
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