Berbatov | Fulham player

I don't see it.

Forlan achieved a league total of 10 goals in 63 games over 3 seasons (I won't count the one game in the fourth)

Berbatov has achieved a league total of 41 goals in 97 games over 3 seasons.

I'm not sure how you see them as the same.
 
Now's about that time Scoreboard will talk about how stats don't mean much and he hasn't really performed when it matters. Big round circles.
 
Well, you think Forlan had a torrid time at United, evidenced by his poor records for us, I'm wondering how that compares with Berbatov, who has had a fairly excellent record with us.
 
The price tag put very high expectations on Berbatov.

As such, he's been OK, that's really about it.

I think we all envisioned him scoring 30 goals a season and absolutely ripping defences to shreds. He's not done that so there is some validity to Johnno's opinion of him.

In the sense of whether he's a United player, well, like much of his time here I don't believe he's shown us that he is. Too often sulky on the pitch despite saying the right things in the press. The expectation was he'd be able to change games on his own, again something where he's left a lot to be desired.

The potential is there for sure but he is not delivering enough atm.
 
Hectic said:
I don't see it.

Forlan achieved a league total of 10 goals in 63 games over 3 seasons (I won't count the one game in the fourth)

Berbatov has achieved a league total of 41 goals in 97 games over 3 seasons.

I'm not sure how you see them as the same.
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I don't see them as the same, I'm using an example of a player who hasnt performed to the best of their ability because Berbatov is still a massive disappointment; one goal since February? No Euro goals since Oct 2008? No performances (let alone goals) versus Arsenal, Chelsea, City or against the teams we've played in several semi-finals and/or finals since his arrival?

His performances in the earlier part of the year had me extremely pleased, his hat-trick v the Dirties is a highlight of the ages but since his equally good Blackpool performance, he's slipped again.

I reiterate, I don't dislike him I just think he doesn't suit us. And neither does Fergie it would seem...
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Owen has scored in major games for England, Liverpool and United including finals at Wembley.
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No one will deny Owen was one of the best poachers in the past. However, he lost a lot of his potency due to injuries, and over the last 5 years he has been a shadow of his former self. To compare him to present day Berbatov is just not a viable opinion.

Berbatov not suited to United's style is another argument.
 
Sultan said:
No one will deny Owen was one of the best poachers in the past. However, he lost a lot of his potency due to injuries, and over the last 5 years he has been a shadow of his former self. To compare him to present day Berbatov is just not a viable opinion.

Berbatov not suited to United's style is another argument.
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Well Owen has scored in the League Cup final for United, I know it's considered a Mickey comp but Berb hasn't scored for United in a major game in March, April or May in any year he's been with us.

Is he a better footballer? He can trap a ball, he can spin round a bit...it's what you do with it that counts mate. Again, Owen's United record is hardly spectacular but he's scored winners against City, a European hat-trick and a cup final goal.

He's a more effective footballer in the bigger games.

I realise it's the same argument, shall we amicably agree to disagree?
 
Scoreboard Red said:
I don't see them as the same, I'm using an example of a player who hasnt performed to the best of their ability because Berbatov is still a massive disappointment; one goal since February? No Euro goals since Oct 2008? No performances (let alone goals) versus Arsenal, Chelsea, City or against the teams we've played in several semi-finals and/or finals since his arrival?

His performances in the earlier part of the year had me extremely pleased, his hat-trick v the Dirties is a highlight of the ages but since his equally good Blackpool performance, he's slipped again.

I reiterate, I don't dislike him I just think he doesn't suit us. And neither does Fergie it would seem...
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2 goals since February. In 247 minutes.

He's made I think one start against those teams you mentioned this season, and that one start was away to city where I thought he was excellent. The only other significant time he played against any of the three was a half against Chelsea in the Shield, where he scored one and assisted one.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
The price tag put very high expectations on Berbatov.

As such, he's been OK, that's really about it.

I think we all envisioned him scoring 30 goals a season and absolutely ripping defences to shreds. He's not done that so there is some validity to Johnno's opinion of him.

In the sense of whether he's a United player, well, like much of his time here I don't believe he's shown us that he is. Too often sulky on the pitch despite saying the right things in the press. The expectation was he'd be able to change games on his own, again something where he's left a lot to be desired.

The potential is there for sure but he is not delivering enough atm.
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Excellent post.
 
I love how the other side consistently ignored your use of statistics. I don't always agree with them, or that they can prove all points, but the ones like above are clearly relevant and useful.

One goal since February sounds a hell of a lot more damning than no goals in 247 minutes.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
2 goals since February. In 247 minutes.

He's made I think one start against those teams you mentioned this season, and that one start was away to city where I thought he was excellent. The only other significant time he played against any of the three was a half against Chelsea in the Shield, where he scored one and assisted one.
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No worries mate.

And whilst not to piss on your parade; why didn't he play against them? Because he's proved insignificant in the many chances he's has against them, so he was dumped.

Excellent in what way against City? We drew 0-0, he didn't score or create a goal for his peer.

And Charity Shield? Are you having a Steffi? That means little, would you consider our shoot-out v Pompey a few years back a major coup? I doubt it...
 
On his day he is a classy player, but he doesn't quite suit to our style of play.
 
I don't know Johnno, you were citing Carling Cup Final goals from Owen as part of a reason why he was selected over Berbatov in a Champions League Final.

What about the other part of Feeky's post?
 
Hectic said:
I love how the other side consistently ignored your use of statistics. I don't always agree with them, or that they can prove all points, but the ones like above are clearly relevant and useful.

One goal since February sounds a hell of a lot more damning than no goals in 247 minutes.
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if we're taking 'sides', then one of your team mates in Sultan has already declared he cares little for stats when I threw a few at him.

Do you wanna do a swapsie for one of my team or dump Sultan completely for not adhering to your strategy?

Come on lads, it's down to opinion ultimately although you must admit you've gone from the majority to the minority in a sharp decline the last couple of months...
 
Hectic said:
I love how the other side consistently ignored your use of statistics. I don't always agree with them, or that they can prove all points, but the ones like above are clearly relevant and useful.

One goal since February sounds a hell of a lot more damning than no goals in 247 minutes.
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Hectic said:
I don't know Johnno, you were citing Carling Cup Final goals from Owen as part of a reason why he was selected over Berbatov in a Champions League Final.

What about the other part of Feeky's post?
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What about the mention of his CL goals? What about the fact Owen has scored more in his last game than Berb has in his (I'm guessing, not as comprehensive as Feekeh) seven or eight appearances, not games, appearances.
 
I'm not taking sides, and care little for whether Sultan appreciates stats or not. We don't pm each other strategy on how to argue Berbatov's case before posting here.

You've been banging on for god knows how long about Berbatov not scoring since February, Feeky has pointed out he's played just 247 minutes, in which time he's scored twice.

You should addess the point Johnno, because it's very relevant to the point you've been making for ages. Don't worry about Sultan, or sides, or Owen, just answer the above.
 
The time he's spent on the pitch in the most important games at the most important times is a far more damning indictment than any stat. Particularly because it illustrates what the only person that matters thinks.
 
Hectic said:
I'm not taking sides, and care little for whether Sultan appreciates stats or not. We don't pm each other strategy on how to argue Berbatov's case before posting here.

You've been banging on for god knows how long about Berbatov not scoring since February, Feeky has pointed out he's played just 247 minutes, in which time he's scored twice.

You should addess the point Johnno, because it's very relevant to the point you've been making for ages. Don't worry about Sultan, or sides, or Owen, just answer the above.
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I don't understand what you mean mate, what other part? The 247 mins?

If this is what you mean then getting the last 25 minutes over ten games is hardly being unused! Especially in the league.

He had his chances, he had a glorious chance versus City but fecked it up, he missed a sitter then let his Right Said Fred drop visibly like a spoilt kid.
 
finneh said:
The time he's spent on the pitch in the most important games at the most important times is a far more damning indictment than any stat. Particularly because it illustrates what the only person that matters thinks.
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Sorry feeky but the above post is BANG on the money.

You shouldn't be using those 247 minutes to defend Berba, they actually to the opposite.
 
What I'm saying is you criticizing Berbatov for not doing anything since February, is not the same as putting it into perspective, he hasn't started these games, but been brought on in the last 20 minutes for the majority of them, in this case is it massively surprising he has only scored 2 goals in 247 minutes?

The way you write it Johnno makes it sound like he's had untold oppertunities, it paints a specific picture, that isn't really accurate. The fact is he's rarely played since then, and the games he has have been scattered, when we know is he a player who requires form.

Similarly had Nani been used in such a manner, another player who thrives on form and confidence, with no regularity to his games and mostly the end of matches, I imagine he would have looked a shadow of himself too.
 
I was simply arguing against Scoreboard's attempted argument that Berbatov hasn't delivered in the last third of the season, as if he'd been given ample opportunity to. You either say "he hasn't scored much" or "he hasn't been played", you can't argue both. Of course the argument about the reasons for his lack of inclusion is another thing, personally I would put it more at the feet of Hernández's splendid form.
 
Hectic said:
What I'm saying is you criticizing Berbatov for not doing anything since February, is not the same as putting it into perspective, he hasn't started these games, but been brought on in the last 20 minutes for the majority of them, in this case is it massively surprising he has only scored 2 goals in 247 minutes?

The way you write it Johnno makes it sound like he's had untold oppertunities, it paints a specific picture, that isn't really accurate. The fact is he's rarely played since then, and the games he has have been scattered, when we know is he a player who requires form.

Similarly had Nani been used in such a manner, another player who thrives on form and confidence, with no regularity to his games and mostly the end of matches, I imagine he would have looked a shadow of himself too.
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Well by the same token, Owen came on versus Blackpool, one chance one goal. How many games has Owen played this year? How many mins has he played? In truth, I don't give a feck, he took his chance and I dare say that combined with his work ethic in training led Fergie to hand him an extra year contract, Berb not sitting with the team when the likes of Park in 2008 and O'Shea this year were right there suggests another train of thought.

And in all honesty, Nani has looked second best since Valencia returned, AV seems a better option on the right (perhaps not on Saturday!!!) than Nani, and whilst Nani is ambidextrous, he's better on the right.
 
It'd be quite funny if Dimi came out & said: "F**k you lot - I'm off to Qatar Athletic for £100000000 per week." :D
 
Feeky_Magee said:
I was simply arguing against Scoreboard's attempted argument that Berbatov hasn't delivered in the last third of the season, as if he'd been given ample opportunity to. You either say "he hasn't scored much" or "he hasn't been played", you can't argue both. Of course the argument about the reasons for his lack of inclusion is another thing, personally I would put it more at the feet of Hernández's splendid form.
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As per below, your argument is Berbatov scored lots up to Jan so therefore he deserved to play against a big team despite not scoring against a big team for United in the title end of any season in a final despite never scoring for United in a final (or semi or QF) and in a competition he hadn't scored in for three years but yeah, mulling it over it makes perfect sense to play him...
 
Hectic said:
Well, you think Forlan had a torrid time at United, evidenced by his poor records for us, I'm wondering how that compares with Berbatov, who has had a fairly excellent record with us.
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As Dwayne alludes too, Forlan and Berbatov were very different players. One was a squad player. He was only here to fill in on occasion. Berbatov with his price tag and his wage, should be more then that. He should be a regular starter and delivering at the business end of the season, but Fergie cant trust him enough to give him the opportunities. For all the glimpses of brilliance berbatov has shown, he has simply failed to live up to his promise. He hasn't shown enough just how good he can be and you can't wait around for him to find form. He started this season well but he went back into his shell again. He has no bollocks, and the only reason he's saying that he's willing to fight, is so that he can get another contract.


Brad said the other day that it seems Fergie is very much over the love in he had for Berbatov. Saturday showed how painfully obvious it is, that he's not the big game player that Fergie thought he should be.
 
Scoreboard Red said:
As per below, your argument is Berbatov scored lots up to Jan so therefore he deserved to play against a big team despite not scoring against a big team for United in the title end of any season in a final despite never scoring for United in a final (or semi or QF) and in a competition he hadn't scored in for three years but yeah, mulling it over it makes perfect sense to play him...
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Like I said, it isn't all about scoring goals. We're talking about him coming off the bench, scoring is always going to be unlikely (even Solskjaer "only" scored 28 times in 150 substitute appearances, or once every 5.4 times). Against a Barca side where two keys to beating them are bypassing the midfield and holding the ball up in the final third, for sure Berbatov could make a difference. Scoring off the bench isn't necessary to make an impact, see West Ham away.

Even besides this, just because something doesn't tend to happen doesn't mean it won't happen the next time. One could say Ronaldo's record against the big teams wasn't exactly great, going by that he shouldn't have started the 2008 Champions League final.

We could do the same with Michael Owen at United. He doesn't have a record of scoring against the big teams for us. Sure, he doesn't play, but this can only mean he isn't trusted, right?

Like I said earlier, the only scenario I could envisage Owen being useful against Barcelona was us one goal down, creating a lot of chances, and Hernández being injured/wrecked. Every other potential scenario, I think Berbatov would have been a more useful option.
 
marchi-91 said:
As Dwayne alludes too, Forlan and Berbatov were very different players. One was a squad player. He was only here to fill in on occasion. Berbatov with his price tag and his wage, should be more then that. He should be a regular starter and delivering at the business end of the season, but Fergie cant trust him enough to give him the opportunities. For all the glimpses of brilliance berbatov has shown, he has simply failed to live up to his promise. He hasn't shown enough just how good he can be and you can't wait around for him to find form. He started this season well but he went back into his shell again. He has no bollocks, and the only reason he's saying that he's willing to fight, is so that he can get another contract.


Brad said the other day that it seems Fergie is very much over the love in he had for Berbatov. Saturday showed how painfully obvious it is, that he's not the big game player that Fergie thought he should be.
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There's an obsession with his price tag. It's an inflated market, and after a bidding war too. I prefer to judge a player on what he does on the pitch rather than his price tag. The alternative (I won't mention his name) was a similar price and any other alternative, such as Benzema would likely have cost more in terms of wages. Speaking of Benzema, a player who had a world of hype about him, who cost a lot and who is also benched for the big matches at Real Madrid. Not as easy as it seems is it?
 
Feeky, I've told you before you rely far too heavily on your stars rather than watch the actual play. You tried to tell me we beat West Ham because Berb came on at HT when in actuality he had no hand in the goals.

You've also managed to slander Solskjaer despite his obvious impact and reliability - he was never a first choice player, even to himself.

As for the Ronaldo comment, well I don't know your logic in not playing the 41 goal player (who would go on to get 42 in the game) because he scored plenty en route.

Right; question, in terms of United footballers of the last five years, where do you place Berbatov because it seems you place him above Ronaldo and possibly Rooney.
 
Feeky_Magee said:
Speaking of Benzema, a player who had a world of hype about him, who cost a lot and who is also benched for the big matches at Real Madrid. Not as easy as it seems is it?
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nobody ever said it was easy. And in general Benzema is looked upon as a failure albeit he did have a good patch
 
Scoreboard Red said:
Feeky, I've told you before you rely far too heavily on your stars rather than watch the actual play. You tried to tell me we beat West Ham because Berb came on at HT when in actuality he had no hand in the goals.

You've also managed to slander Solskjaer despite his obvious impact and reliability - he was never a first choice player, even to himself.

As for the Ronaldo comment, well I don't know your logic in not playing the 41 goal player (who would go on to get 42 in the game) because he scored plenty en route.

Right; question, in terms of United footballers of the last five years, where do you place Berbatov because it seems you place him above Ronaldo and possibly Rooney.
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Don't know where to start with that post. :lol:

Firstly I apparently rely on stats, even though I cited his performances against West Ham where he didn't get a goal or an assist? I thought it was evident in that match his hold up play was critical in us keeping the ball in their final third, keeping the ball and building pressure.

I fail to see how I "slandered" Solskjaer, I was simply pointing out that even for the best of impact players, goals off the bench are quite rare. Therefore there's other rationale in bringing players on than simply "will they score?".

I also wasn't advocating dropping Ronaldo for the final, it was an analogy that just because something happens for a period (i.e. Ronaldo perceived to be not performing the same in the big games), doesn't mean it will continue to happen.

Lastly I've no idea why you think I seem to "place him above Ronaldo and possibly Rooney", can you point me to one place where I said that? I think he's worthy of a place at Old Trafford and someone who was doing a job for us even in his perceived poor start.
Randall Flagg said:
nobody ever said it was easy. And in general Benzema is looked upon as a failure albeit he did have a good patch
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As far as I recall a certain someone on this page started a thread raving about Benzema during that good patch.
 
Hectic said:
How would people rate Berbatov's season out of 10?
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8,5. doesn't get much better for a striker than to help the team to number 19 by topping the goal charts.

Not to mention having the best minute to goal ratio in the league bar v. Persie. And goal scoring isn't even his best trade!
 
Scoreboard Red said:
if we're taking 'sides', then one of your team mates in Sultan has already declared he cares little for stats when I threw a few at him.

Do you wanna do a swapsie for one of my team or dump Sultan completely for not adhering to your strategy?

Come on lads, it's down to opinion ultimately although you must admit you've gone from the majority to the minority in a sharp decline the last couple of months...
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So what are you saying here Johno, the majority of people now share your opinion on Berbatov's talent?
 
I suppose your professing your love for Berbatov on another social site and your persistent Berbatov championing would suggest he's your man, just an opinion. I didn't see much support by you about Rooney when he was lacking form.

You claim Berb held up play resulting in West Ham
turnaround is bizarre, he had feck all to do with the turnaround. It was Rooney, Rooney, Rooney and Hernandez (via Giggs) in that game.

I like the way you call my last post 'laughable' when I keep responding to you, especially your ridiculous views on Ronaldo, he was the best player in Europe that season, league and CL, you use your previous response to pretend he wasn't, shows your pathetic agenda.

As for Solsksjaer, he's done more for United than Berb ever will - "who put the ball in re German's net" sounds far better than "who put the ball in Blackpool's net?"

Trust me...
 
Scoreboard Red said:
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, I'm not one for stats either (ask Feekeh) but from my opinion just from watching Berb the past three seasons, he's only ever scored once against title challenging teams, a gratuitous third against Chelsea in Scolari's last game whereas as I say, Owen has scored in major games for England, Liverpool and United including finals at Wembley.

Forlan is clearly a top player, he's been La Liga top scorer and Euro Golden Boot but had a torrid time at United. Veron is another.

Some players just aren't United players mate, I would categorize Berbatov in this segment.
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He had a hat trick against Liverpool. Title challenging or not doesn't matter in this derby game.

In his last season with Tottenham he scored 2 against us, 2 goals in 2 games against Chelsea, a goal against Arsenal.
The season before that he also scored against Arsenal and Chelsea.
 
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