Berbatov | Fulham player

Sharky7 said:
Yep and it was, I nrver thought we should pay that much for a guy who I didn't think suited us, that's been my entire argument all along, that the money would've been spent better elsewhere. 3 years later and I'm SAD to say I'm right.
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Actually, from the post I quoted, your argument appeared to be "he is our record signing, he should be doing better." The size of the fee is not Berbatov's problem, and he shouldn't be criticised for it.

Out of interest, given our recent success, where would this money have been better spent?
 
I can understand those being a bit underwhelmed with him in his whole 3 seasons here. When he initially came I thought that we'd bought a player which could help improve us kick on and improve us even further and hopefully impact the biggest games.

It's not quite worked out like that but he has been good for us throughout, with a sensational period where he and Nani carried our attacking play for 6 months of this season. I'd love him to stay with us, not only is he one of the most gifted and devastating strikers in the league he also understands the importance of the squad as a whole.

Put it this way if we were given the choice to invest the money again I'm not sure Fergie would buy him, but in the current situation where he'd only likely fetch around 12m with a year left on his contract he needs to be around. No other striker of his quality that would accept a squad role like Berbatov has.
 
Lance Uppercut said:
Actually, from the post I quoted, your argument appeared to be "he is our record signing, he should be doing better." The size of the fee is not Berbatov's problem, and he shouldn't be criticised for it.
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Get back to the real world Lance, of course the fee is a big part. Veron would've been a massive success too if we'd paid 10m for him.

And damn fecking right I expect our record signing to be one of the first names on the teamsheet and playing in all finals etc, a la Rooney/Rio, especially at the age we bought Berba. To say anything else is pretty ignorant to how football works.

Lance Uppercut said:
Out of interest, given our recent success, where would this money have been better spent?
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I always thought we should've spent it on a different type of striker more suited to our game, like Saha/Hernandez are.
 
Sharky7 said:
Get back to the real world Lance, of course the fee is a big part. Veron would've been a massive success too if we'd paid 10m for him.
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The point is, it is not Berbatov's problem that SAF chose to spend that amount of money on him. If you don't believe he has been performing like a £30 million signing, then your problem is with the manager. He was obviously confident that he would.

And damn fecking right I expect our record signing to be one of the first names on the teamsheet and playing in all finals etc, a la Rooney/Rio, especially at the age we bought Berba. To say anything else is pretty ignorant to how football works.
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So because player A cost more than player B, he should start? Now THAT is ignorance.

I always thought we should've spent it on a different type of striker more suited to our game, like Saha/Hernandez are.
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And if we had spent it on an as yet unnamed player, we would have been more successful these past three seasons?
 
Lance Uppercut said:
So because player A cost more than player B, he should start? Now THAT is ignorance.
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Mick1991 said:
You seem to place a strange amount of emphasis on the transfer fee Sharky.
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Most people do.

If you think Hernandez would be getting the same amount of plaudits if he cost £40m then you are very naive. Likewise if we bought central midfielder X for £50m, he would be the first name on the team sheet (see Torres).
 
I just find it strange that that he accuses Lance of being ignorant in how football works and then went on to claim that Veron would have been a 'massive success' based on a reduced transfer fee...........shown himself up with that one.
 
finneh said:
Most people do.

If you think Hernandez would be getting the same amount of plaudits if he cost £40m then you are very naive. Likewise if we bought central midfielder X for £50m, he would be the first name on the team sheet (see Torres).
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Cheers for that finneh, saves me wasting my time.
 
Mick1991 said:
I just find it strange that that he accuses Lance of being ignorant in how football works and then went on to claim that Veron would have been a 'massive success' based on a reduced transfer fee...........shown himself up with that one.
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Veron for 10m doing some of the stuff he did and how well he played in Europe... who's the ignorant one?
 
finneh said:
Most people do.

If you think Hernandez would be getting the same amount of plaudits if he cost £40m then you are very naive. Likewise if we bought central midfielder X for £50m, he would be the first name on the team sheet (see Torres).
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Hernandez would be getting plaudits at any price, he's had a fantastic debut season. Using a transfer fee to adjust opinions on a player is daft.
 
Sharky7 said:
Veron for 10m doing some of the stuff he did and how well he played in Europe... who's the ignorant one?
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Yep, such a long and distinguished career he had with us.....massive success.

We could have got Veron for a pack of Chickatee's and he wouldn't have been a success. The transfer fee has nothing to do with it, he didn't fit in on the field and was moved on, it's as simple as that.
 
Mick1991 said:
Yep, such a long and distinguished career he had with us.....massive success.
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Ah ok, but my point is... had we bought him for say 10m they'd have been less expectation from the club and the manager and he'd have no doubt stayed longer even if just for Europe and especially after the sale of Beckham.

Obviously he wasn't a success, stop playing silly beggers.
 
Great player. I thought he's done enough to justify his price tag, even though it was out of his control, we got our moneys worth. He played a big part in #19, no denying that. Still think he doesn't quite fit our system though, i just want us to go back to our quick free flowing counter attacking football.

Hate to see him leave, but if it means Modric or Bale going the other way, it would probably be best for both parties. Spurs are in dire need of a striker, and they can build their team around him again, while either of those players can strengthen us greatly in the midfield area. It just makes sense. I'm glad Berbs is open to the move, if the quotes are true.
 
R_Nick said:
Hernandez would be getting plaudits at any price, he's had a fantastic debut season. Using a transfer fee to adjust opinions on a player is daft.
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It really is. You can poke fun at the clubs and/or managers for it but the player has nothing to with it.
 
R_Nick said:
Hernandez would be getting plaudits at any price, he's had a fantastic debut season. Using a transfer fee to adjust opinions on a player is daft.
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There's a difference between "getting plaudits" and "getting the same amount of plaudits". If we bought Ronaldo back from Real Madrid for £100m and he had the exact season that Hernandez has had, do you think people would be as complimentary?

The transfer fee will always be taken into account when looking at the success of a player and rightly so. You don't pay an employee six figures a year and expect the same out of him than a guy on minimum wage.

Snow said:
It really is. You can poke fun at the clubs and/or managers for it but the player has nothing to with it.
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Not true at all. If you buy a player for big money, it is because he showed numerous qualities that were deemed to constitute that value. Either you have moronic scouts/a dumb-ass manager who think they see quality that doesn't exist, or the player cannot repeat his qualities for a new club.

The latter is the players fault, and we definitely do not have the former.
 
Sharky7 said:
Ah ok, but my point is... had we bought him for say 10m they'd have been less expectation from the club and the manager and he'd have no doubt stayed longer even if just for Europe and especially after the sale of Beckham.

Obviously he wasn't a success, stop playing silly beggers.
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He didn't fit in full stop. Transfer fee had nothing to do with it mate. If a player doesn't fit in or work it doesn't matter if they are a youth product (that and being a young player are the instances where I think it buys you some more time) or a 30 million quid superstar you will be shown the door.
 
finneh said:
There's a difference between "getting plaudits" and "getting the same amount of plaudits". If we bought Ronaldo back from Real Madrid for £100m and he had the exact season that Hernandez has had, do you think people would be as complimentary?

The transfer fee will always be taken into account when looking at the success of a player and rightly so. You don't pay an employee six figures a year and expect the same out of him than a guy on minimum wage.
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If we signed Ronaldo back and he scored 20 goals we'd probably not give him the same plaudits because he's Ronaldo and we'd know he's good enough to expect more. We'd expect more because of the player we know he is, not because of how much the club paid for him. You can't raise or lower expectations based purely on how much a player cost, it just doesn't work.

If we sign a player on a free and pay him comparatively little each week does that mean we can only ever be impressed because they didn't cost anything? Or is it more likely we'd base our expectations on what we know the player to be capable of?
 
finneh said:
There's a difference between "getting plaudits" and "getting the same amount of plaudits". If we bought Ronaldo back from Real Madrid for £100m and he had the exact season that Hernandez has had, do you think people would be as complimentary?

The transfer fee will always be taken into account when looking at the success of a player and rightly so. You don't pay an employee six figures a year and expect the same out of him than a guy on minimum wage.



Not true at all. If you buy a player for big money, it is because he showed numerous qualities that were deemed to constitute that value. Either you have moronic scouts/a dumb-ass manager who think they see quality that doesn't exist, or the player cannot repeat his qualities for a new club.

The latter is the players fault, and we definitely do not have the former.
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Only if he doesn't try, which is definitely not the case here.
 
finneh said:
Not true at all. If you buy a player for big money, it is because he showed numerous qualities that were deemed to constitute that value. Either you have moronic scouts/a dumb-ass manager who think they see quality that doesn't exist, or the player cannot repeat his qualities for a new club.

The latter is the players fault, and we definitely do not have the former.
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So you think Berbatov was a better player at Spurs than he has been for us?
 
I actually find it genuinely amazing that so many fans still have such major reservations over a player who finished top scorer in the league and scored a hat-trick against Liverpool this season
 
Sharky7 said:
Definitely. He suits being the main man.
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So you think his level of performance is lower than at spurs and thus are disappointed? I disagree with that but I can at least understand it. Saying 'well he cost £30m therefore he should be better' is just stupid.
 
R_Nick said:
So you think his level of performance is lower than at spurs and thus are disappointed? I disagree with that but I can at least understand it. Saying 'well he cost £30m therefore he should be better' is just stupid.
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I've argued that point on here since a few months after his arrival, he was THE MAN at Spurs, that's the reason we shelled out so much for him.

Should Torres not be better at Chelsea after costing 50m? I think so. OBVIOUSLY the fee relates to the players past and what you expect. If he was some unknown then I'd of course you can't judge on the fee.
 
You can't just discount the transfer fee as it defines a players in terms of his status and prestige and also to some degree his wage packet.

The bigger the fee then like anything else in business you want your asset to perform.
 
SecondFig said:
I actually find it genuinely amazing that so many fans still have such major reservations over a player who finished top scorer in the league and scored a hat-trick against Liverpool this season
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SAF dropped his record signing for the CL final, are you amazed that he still has reservations?
 
Commadus said:
You can't just discount the transfer fee as it defines a players in terms of his status and prestige and also to some degree his wage packet.

The bigger the fee then like anything else in business you want your asset to perform.
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You cannot discount the transfer fee but then again you have to take in the fact that a player of his quality who's not opposed to rotation being at the club for the long haul justifies that even if the performances dont warrant that tag. Gives us more stability and options. BTW, how much do you guys think we overpaid? 5m? 7m?

Hypothetically, if Berbatov spends another 3-4 years here contibuting to our success (keeping aside the fact that he already has contributed to our success already), would you not think it would be worth it? Given the versatility he adds to our attacking options.

EDIT : Hargreaves cost 18m, played for a season, contributed to our double (Mind you, not as much as some people would have you believe) and people think he was worth it. Berbatov has been here longer, we've won 2 titles and have been CL runners up twice in his time here uptil now. I'd say he's done well.
 
Sharky7 said:
I've argued that point on here since a few months after his arrival, he was THE MAN at Spurs, that's the reason we shelled out so much for him.

Should Torres not be better at Chelsea after costing 50m? I think so. OBVIOUSLY the fee relates to the players past and what you expect. If he was some unknown then I'd of course you can't judge on the fee.
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Here's one for you Sharky, If Torres had ran down his contract at Liverpool and went to Chelsea on a free, do you think Chelsea fans and management would be sitting back saying 'Ah sure he was free so his poor performances don't really matter'.

Or maybe their disillusionment with Torres stems from the fact that they know how good he can be rather than anything to do with his transfer fee.
 
JayWalker said:
You cannot discount the transfer fee but then again you have to take in the fact that a player of his quality who's not opposed to rotation being at the club for the long haul justifies that even if the performances dont warrant that tag. Gives us more stability and options. BTW, how much do you guys think we overpaid? 5m? 7m?

Hypothetically, if Berbatov spends another 3-4 years here contibuting to our success (keeping aside the fact that he already has contributed to our success already), would you not think it would be worth it? Given the versatility he adds to our attacking options.
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I have been banging on since last year we should offer a 2 year extension. We will never recover par value with Berba so dont rush into selling him. I would offer the same wages as I suspect he will be used more sparingly each season injurie permitting as Hernandez starts more games and develops.

In the end as I said earlier only if SAF sees the whole team moving into a new direction that Berba will be sold.
 
Sharky7 said:
I've argued that point on here since a few months after his arrival, he was THE MAN at Spurs, that's the reason we shelled out so much for him.

Should Torres not be better at Chelsea after costing 50m? I think so. OBVIOUSLY the fee relates to the players past and what you expect. If he was some unknown then I'd of course you can't judge on the fee.
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Expectations of Torres are based on what people know he's capable of, not his transfer fee. Sure it makes it funnier as rival fans that he's been rubbish after such a large fee, but that's not the foundation of people's expectations.

Mick1991 said:
Here's one for you Sharky, If Torres had ran down his contract at Liverpool and went to Chelsea on a free, do you think Chelsea fans and management would be sitting back saying 'Ah sure he was free so his poor performances don't really matter'.

Or maybe their disillusionment with Torres stems from the fact that they know how good he can be rather than anything to do with his transfer fee.
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Exactly.
 
We've played a major part in Berba's woes, he's always overlooked and most unfairly treated player. Many a times he's been benched even if he's in sublime form or right after having a cracking display in the last game.
 
R_Nick said:
If we signed Ronaldo back and he scored 20 goals we'd probably not give him the same plaudits because he's Ronaldo and we'd know he's good enough to expect more. We'd expect more because of the player we know he is, not because of how much the club paid for him. You can't raise or lower expectations based purely on how much a player cost, it just doesn't work.

If we sign a player on a free and pay him comparatively little each week does that mean we can only ever be impressed because they didn't cost anything? Or is it more likely we'd base our expectations on what we know the player to be capable of?
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R_Nick said:
So you think Berbatov was a better player at Spurs than he has been for us?
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The transfer fee is relative to the talent you are buying.

If we paid £100m for Ronaldo and he had Hernandez' season we'd be disappointed, because we bought a £100m player with the talents as such and probably would have gotten a £30~m (guesstimate) player.

Fergie bought Berbatov for £31m because he thought he was buying a £31m player after watching his performances for Spurs. It is clear that we have not gotten a "£30m player", because this level of player would command a starting position in our team, even if other players needed to be moved around. If you think Fergie hasn't been disappointed with how Berbatov has played for us vs how he did for Spurs then I'd have to vehemently disagree.

Just go and have a look at the Michael Owen signs a 1 year extension thread. A lot are jumping for joy because he cost nothing and is on modest wages and might nick a goal here and there. If we bought Owen for £25m, everyone would be irate.

That in Rafa's words, is a facht.

/edit: I'll give you an example: I really think Modric is overrated and is worth £20m max. If he comes to us this Summer for £45m, I will expect more of him than a £20m player.
 
finneh said:
The transfer fee is relative to the talent you are buying.

If we paid £100m for Ronaldo and he had Hernandez' season we'd be disappointed, because we bought a £100m player with the talents as such and probably would have gotten a £30~m (guesstimate) player.

Fergie bought Berbatov for £31m because he thought he was buying a £31m player after watching his performances for Spurs. It is clear that we have not gotten a "£30m player", because this level of player would command a starting position in our team, even if other players needed to be moved around. If you think Fergie hasn't been disappointed with how Berbatov has played for us vs how he did for Spurs then I'd have to vehemently disagree.

Just go and have a look at the Michael Owen signs a 1 year extension thread. A lot are jumping for joy because he cost nothing and is on modest wages and might nick a goal here and there. If we bought Owen for £25m, everyone would be irate.

That in Rafa's words, is a facht.
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You've just rehashed your earlier post with new words and not added anything new. I've already said that peoples expectations are not based on the transfer fee, but rather what they know a player is capable of. All you are doing by labelling someone 'a £30m player' is putting a theoretical value on a level of talent, which is irrelevant to how performance should be judged, it's the level of talent by which we should be drawing conclusions, not how big an impact he made on the P&L.

If Owen had signed and literally scored a single goal in his United career we wouldn't all be sat back basking in a fantastic result because he didn't cost us anything, we'd be moaning because we know he's a player capable of more than that. It's what we know a player can do, that's what matters.


finneh said:
/edit: I'll give you an example: I really think Modric is overrated and is worth £20m max. If he comes to us this Summer for £45m, I will expect more of him than a £20m player.
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edit for your edit: well then you'd be stupid. You know what he's capable of and what to expect of him from having watching him play, why would you suddenly expect him to become twice as good over night just because transfer fees are inflated beyond your own perceived value?
 
I feel like I'm in the newbs again, I'm sure Commadus would agree. This has been done to death and for three fecking years now. I'm out. Why people cant get over that transfer fee, I'll never know. Especially when its not been a bad transfer as some people suggest.
 
JayWalker said:
I feel like I'm in the newbs again, I'm sure Commadus would agree. This has been done to death and for three fecking years now. I'm out.
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You're right. It wouldn't be the same if the forum had a subscription fee, that would give us the right to expect better quality posts :p
 
R_Nick said:
You're right. It wouldn't be the same if the forum had a subscription fee, that would give us the right to expect better quality posts :p
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Retarded posts are just fine, god knows I still chuckle at the thought of that Jamie Redknapp thread or that flowchart thread (Good times, eh:lol:), but come on Nick, Berbatov's transfer fee, 3 years down the line? Surely we can call each other retarded on something a bit more relevant than that.
 
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