That's a pretty odd post.
A people's Revolution
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That's a pretty odd post.
There's not much I disagree with there, Obama was excellently pragmatic in his approach and played a diplomatic master stroke throughout this whole lengthy episode.
But:
I have to take exception with this. The people of the US truly do believe in the values of democracy, thats why so many of them were supportive of the protester's demands. The government on the other hand only believe in it in principle, not in practise. The truth is, this is a huge setback for the United States government since the last thing the corporate-run US government had wanted was a democratic Egypt; Frank Wisner's comments were perfectly representative of the State Department's stance even if you had dear Hillary say otherwise.
To his employers Obama was brilliant in dealing with the whole thing - he privately supported a tyrant that served US government interests, and when it was clear Mubarak was finished he publically jumped ship and holstered the flag of the free, democratic world. It was diplomatically sound but horribly dishonest.
How long until we have an Algeria thread, protests getting heavier there.
Well, at first this was a Tunisia thread, then Egypt stole Tunisias thunder now Algeria might steal Egypts thunder.
Good point I forgot this thread's initial coverage. Algeria or Yemen. Conflicting reports on how many are out, but thousands are out for the banned protest 1000 detained including 5 mps, riot police out in full force.
HR - that article is interesting because, all the talk has been how Gates and US Army Chief have a 15-20 year old relationship with Tantawi, and that he's spent a lot of time in the US, and with US military figures.
So go figure....
So go figure....
Algeria in the several thousands, Yemen picking up quite heavily too. Reports of unrest in other ME countries too.
This thread could end up being the 10k challenge part 3.
This thread could end up being the 10k challenge part 3.
I suppose all the worlds media will be taking a plane over to Yemen.
I'm hearing that a million man protest is being held in Iraq on the 25th 
I want to read the last 3-5 pages and reply and comment to everyone and thank everyone..but i can't focus.. too many thoughts ..too many emotions..too many things to do.
As a start..thank you all
As a start..thank you all
Never in doubt. Too much to lose for all concerned if they went in any other direction.
I can't believe people can be so forgetful. It was Joe Biden who said Mubarak isn't a dictator. Tell that to the Egyptians.
By sidelining Mubarak, Obama has pretty much told the rest of the Middle East and all its allies that he won't be able to help them if protests are ignited in their own state. This, along with the horrendous comments made by US diplomats in the Wikileaks cables, have pushed back diplomacy channels over 50 years.
This may very well be one of the worst blunders in US diplomatic history.
Also, this will never happen in Iran because you forget three important issues. Firstly, the army is WITH the government not the protesters. Secondly, there are just as many people who support the government as there are who oppose it. Thirdly, as much as you'd like to think otherwise, Ahmadinejad is not Mubarak.
Seems fitting...
I will be going to Algeria to visit relatives next week.
Have fun, I'll be in Iraq in the next month or so too
Tunisia and Egypt are fairly homegeneous and socially stable countries so revolution there can happen smoothly - Yemen and Algeria on the otherhand wouldn't be able to do so and would become very ugly indeed, Yemen especially.
Have fun, I'll be in Iraq in the next month or so too
Please tell Sharistani and Maliki to sort their shit out, I got shares in Kurdish oil.
Then you're fine, the Kurdish region is more or less economically autonomous. Maliki and his cronies have nothing to do with it, in fact the great man halved his $10million a month salary as an act of good will. What a guy.
I know the protesters would be dead by now.
Iran and other countries that lack stable Democratic systems will inevitably all collapse. At the end of the day people want greater freedom, and dictatorships, which Iran still is, don't stand a chance in stopping it. Khamanai, Ahmadinejad, and their thugs got away with it a couple of summers ago, but it won't be as simple as simply killing and arresting demonstrators the next time, especially after Egypt, Facebook, and with the world watching. A month ago, no one thought it possible for Egypt to flip. Theocracies, Monarchies, and otherwise authoritarian regimes will have to begin serious internal reforms or else risk going the way of Mubarak.
...and the annual post of Raoul's comes to pass.
The one post that doesn't appear to be a talking-point or utter nonsense.
...and the annual post of Raoul's comes to pass.
The one post that doesn't appear to be a talking-point or utter nonsense.
Very nice of you Rob. Although its likely down to a breakthrough on your part, not mine.
Call me a pessimist, but I don't think the Egyptian revolution is anywhere near over, in fact this could have been a master stroke by the US and certain army officials.
I have a bad feeling about this..
I have a bad feeling about this..
Still a long way to go before elections. Its up to the military to keep the peace between now and then.
I can't see the army taking the risk.
Can you imagine the anger of the people if there's no handover of power within a certain time-scale?
I just hope they can peacefully implement an election timetable within a year or so.
What are they going to do? Call elections tomorrow? It's going to take an extended amount of time to institute the reforms necessary to meet public demands, allow for the formation of a political system and parties, and then finally allowing for a campaign/elections process that is free and fair. This stuff doesn't happen over night and the military is right to take its time.
Having elections in September looks like a stretch to me right now. There has to be enough time for the political system and culture to be changed before you can hold an election. The biggest criticism is that there isn't a civilian presence in the governing body, which is pretty important. The timetable isn't much of an issue.
I think the least they could have done is given the people an explicit promise that there will be an election in September when one's due. I don't think it's unrealistic that the political infrastructure can be put in place, particularly as the UN is very keen to help out.
Yeah, I know.. you're perception is locked onto a State Dept. press release like a steel-trap.
Yeah, I know.. you're perception is locked onto a State Dept. press release like a steel-trap.
My views are based on common sense and are mine alone, and based on professional observations of being in the middle east for most of the past decade.
Out of interest, how many UN member states are in fact democracies?
I'd say next to none. True democracies don't really exist any more.
It's picking up in Iran again!
Iran's the one I really want to fall (as well as Saudi obviously). I know a number of Iranian ex-pats and they all say their country could be great if they got rid of the theocracy. I can see Iran being a lot more bloody than Egypt and Tunisia though...
Iran's a difficult one though - a large proportion of the population are loyal to the regime, and that includes much of the military too. You're right in thinking it could turn into a bloodbath.
No reason why they shouldn't give a peaceful protest in numbers a go, just as the Egyptians had more or less done.
No reason why they shouldn't give a peaceful protest in numbers a go, just as the Egyptians had more or less done.
IS the whole of the Arab and Muslim world about to blow up? It's going on everywhere.