Surely Wenger can see the giant looming sign directly in front of his eyes which states in no uncertain terms:
Selling Sanchez to City will be a mistake of gargantuan proportions. Please, for the love of God, don't do it Mr Wenger. Ignore this message at your peril.
You simply do not sell your star attraction and most influential player to a direct rival, least not one that is already a strong favourite to win the league.
If Arsenal go ahead with this deal, they will prove to the world they have lost sight of their long term ambition, which is, like any big club, to win the league.
Wenger has 'private economy' relationship to money while running a global scale corporation, he is a purist to a flaw and has no concept of 'swag' or how to build and maintain high esteem in current trends. On top of being foolishly naive in a new type of cut-throat market. There is no feeling of 'Cult' around them anymore and ever diminishing allure for the best players. He constantly tries to do the 'right' thing but has got a bit predictable. He seriously need to bite into the sour grape then sell to anyone EXCLUDING his competition. Cut his losses, use the money and rebuild. It's a big gamble to let those contracts run out and will only pay off if they win EL or qualify top4 in terms of monetary and sport gains, but at expense of loosened team cohesion, he is letting them piss on the club dignity like this.
In contrast resilient clubs like Atletico, Monaco or even Dortmund have all accepted that they are right below top teams. Dutifully they all change roster to follow suit every time it was called for, sticking to contingency plans and being innovative in filtering lower leagues for gems diligently year after year, constantly staying competitive even when things look fubar.
I think, of course they will have a few good wins here and there, but unless they comptely change their approach to games, overall, their season is going to be poor.
Surely Wenger can see the giant looming sign directly in front of his eyes which states in no uncertain terms:
Selling Sanchez to City will be a mistake of gargantuan proportions. Please, for the love of God, don't do it Mr Wenger. Ignore this message at your peril.
You simply do not sell your star attraction and most influential player to a direct rival, least not one that is already a strong favourite to win the league.
If Arsenal go ahead with this deal, they will prove to the world they have lost sight of their long term ambition, which is, like any big club, to win the league.
Liverpool will replace arsenal as a top 4 side. I dont think spurs can sustain there great form. United city chelsea liverpool spurs everton arsenal is how the year will finish. Wneger will get a nee deal and life will go on.
I can't see Arsenal beating anyone at this moment in time! They play schoolyard football. Their entire gameplan is to be better at football than the opposition.
I'd have much more sympathy if the argument was framed in this way, but it's not. They are all acting like it's not Groundhog day, but the last days of Rome. "There's a fire sale happening", and selling Oxlade fecking Chamberlain is a disastrous omen, rather than a joyous occasion it really aught to be. Everything is coated in dysphemism and hyperbole. It's just a really annoying spectacle at the moment.
I fully expect them to go back to rationalising their situation as soon as the transfer window shuts though, and the team starts picking their customary points against minnows.
To me, it does look like the last days of rome for them more than groundhog day. They are going to lose their two best players within the next 12 months. Possibly for nothing. They've got a host of players close to the first XI looking likely to follow suit also within the next 12 months. Wenger seems to be in denial about the squad being on the verge of an overhaul and has signed all of two players, whilst looking to ship out more players.
If they miss out on top four again, they could find themselves completely adrift a year from now. If you look at the top six and ask yourself if one of them is likely to drop out and make it a top 5 over the next few years, Arsenal look like a prime candidate for this.
Liverpool will replace arsenal as a top 4 side. I dont think spurs can sustain there great form. United city chelsea liverpool spurs everton arsenal is how the year will finish. Wneger will get a nee deal and life will go on.
To me, it does look like the last days of rome for them more than groundhog day. They are going to lose their two best players within the next 12 months. Possibly for nothing. They've got a host of players close to the first XI looking likely to follow suit also within the next 12 months. Wenger seems to be in denial about the squad being on the verge of an overhaul and has signed all of two players, whilst looking to ship out more players.
If they miss out on top four again, they could find themselves completely adrift a year from now. If you look at the top six and ask yourself if one of them is likely to drop out and make it a top 5 over the next few years, Arsenal look like a prime candidate for this.
The only counter point is the huge wad of cash they're sitting on. Will they spend it or not. It won't happen under Wenger, they spent a fair bit last year without sales but this year they're making a profit atm.
The sad thing is I don't think Wenger has necessarily lost the dressing room...he's just created a culture within it where losing and terrible attitude during games is deemed acceptable, and over time that has manifested itself into him assembling a dressing room of players who think and play in this way.
Sunday, you had instances of Liverpool players running through on goal because of Arsenal players literally turning their back on the game. It happened 5 or 6 times. Over half the players played in a way where at any of the other top clubs, you wouldn't see them again for months afterwards. Mhikitaryan played like that against City last year and it took 3 months for Jose to trust him again. With Arsenal, they'll all be in the team again next week, because they can play neat looking passes and that's all Wenger is interested in. So there's no incentive for any of them to need to get their act together.
It's been going on for years and it's just very gradually bedded in to their whole mentality and become worse and worse. I think it started as far back as 2007-2008 sort of time, when Wenger seemed to become completely obsessed with players who could pass the ball in nice looking ways. Players like Ramsey and Ozil now play like this by default. They have literally zero interest in fighting to win a football game. At any other top club they would have to either man up VERY quickly, or they would sink. At Arsenal they are praised and applauded because they can play a few one touch passes at home to Burnley.
When we played Arsenal at OT in LVG's second season, it had reached a point where Ramsey just watched Valencia run past him time and time again because Valencia knocked him over in about the 5th minute and he didn't fancy getting knocked over again. He wasn't subbed off. Imagine a Chelsea, City, United, Spurs, Liverpool, etc. player doing this and not being subbed off. They wouldn't make it past 20 minutes...it just wouldn't happen in the first place.
You can't spend years accepting this kind of attitude and expect it not to eventually become the norm. Eventually any player who has anything about them would avoid playing for a team like that in the first place, which I think is the point they've now reached.
Yeah, it's the worst kind of siege mentality: the kind that says "Everyone & everything is against us...so there's our excuse" instead of the usual "Everyone & everything is against us, so we're gonna fight back."
Yeah, it's the worst kind of siege mentality: the kind that says "Everyone & everything is against us...so there's our excuse" instead of the usual "Everyone & everything is against us, so we're gonna fight back."
Thierry Henry got it spot on when he said the squad is comfortable. Win or lose they don't come in for any flak, or get dropped. That kind of environment just breeds lackadaisical people that truly don't give a shit. Ozil is the epitome of this but there's others.
A perfect example of how Arsenal as a club is so much like living in a bubble, Kieran Gibbs, a player that'll never make it Arsenal and will spend most his time on the bench, gets a chance to move to Watford and get first team football. He wouldn't have to move house, the training ground is about half a mile from Arsenal's - yet he turns them down to stay at Arsenal and steal a living every week. Wenger being Wenger won't say a dickie bird about it, probably offer him a new contract to rot away even longer.
Thierry Henry got it spot on when he said the squad is comfortable. Win or lose they don't come in for any flak, or get dropped. That kind of environment just breeds lackadaisical people that truly don't give a shit. Ozil is the epitome of this but there's others.
A perfect example of how Arsenal as a club is so much like living in a bubble, Kieran Gibbs, a player that'll never make it Arsenal and will spend most his time on the bench, gets a chance to move to Watford and get first team football. He wouldn't have to move house, the training ground is about half a mile from Arsenal's - yet he turns them down to stay at Arsenal and steal a living every week. Wenger being Wenger won't say a dickie bird about it, probably offer him a new contract to rot away even longer.
Thierry Henry got it spot on when he said the squad is comfortable. Win or lose they don't come in for any flak, or get dropped. That kind of environment just breeds lackadaisical people that truly don't give a shit. Ozil is the epitome of this but there's others.
A perfect example of how Arsenal as a club is so much like living in a bubble, Kieran Gibbs, a player that'll never make it Arsenal and will spend most his time on the bench, gets a chance to move to Watford and get first team football. He wouldn't have to move house, the training ground is about half a mile from Arsenal's - yet he turns them down to stay at Arsenal and steal a living every week. Wenger being Wenger won't say a dickie bird about it, probably offer him a new contract to rot away even longer.
On paper, their 3-5-2 looks promising. Front three of Sanchez-Laca-Ozil. Bellerin & Ox as wingbacks. Ramsey as CM. However, their DM and defense is their apparent weakness.
If that's true, then something has to change
1. Manager
2. Tactic/system/formation
3. Mentality of both manager and players
Otherwise, probably a better team chemistry can miraculously lift the team up this season.
Aside from the disasters on the pitch, what ever way you look at it Wenger/the board have cocked up this transfer window. If the Ox and Sanchez do go they have left it too late to get serious replacements and if they stay they're going to have some unhappy bunnies in the dressing room and a weakened bank balance when Sanchez goes on a free.
This goes beyond bad management. They really don't know how to buy and sell players. They have a real problem for the next 36 hours and should have sorted this long before now.
Wenger says that more clubs will let players contract run out but he is wrong. There's too much money at stake for this to be true. £40-£50m for Sanchez now or nothing next year. Even Utd got rid of Rooney while they could still recover some value.
Don't worry, they'll put a string of 5 or 6 wins together and by Xmas they'll be talking about them winning the league, before it inevitably goes to shit again in the Spring.
A few above talking about culture at the club. The culture of the club that has been fostered has been this:
-The players have known that coming fourth is okay, the manager wasn't getting any hassle infact the manager was openly saying how coming fourth is like winning a trophy so nothing to worry about for them. Hence the reason you have seen these ridiculous celebrations when we come 4th at the last match; like they won the trophy
-Wenger is not like Fergie or Mourinho or Pep, he won't give the players a kick up the arse. Numerous times they have said he rarely loses his temper. Now I am not saying managers should be like tyrants but unless the players feel some dread re: the manager's reaction after losses then they're not going to care. The players can take a dump in the middle of the dressing room and know they won't be chastised. Which leads us to...
-the players, a lot of them preferring the status quo. Numerous times players like Giroud, Walcott, Welbeck and others have said ''we back the manager completely, this media talk is nonsense''. Well why wouldn't you back him lads? Its the one club where getting CL is enough and the manager won't be sacked for it and in return he is happy with your mediocreness. Which leads to a vicious circle of the board backing Wenger (for ££££££ as a result of CL), Wenger backing mediocre players who are cheap enough that he doesn't have to spend his employer's money but who are clearly not good enough for titles, and then players backing this manager because at any other club either they'd get a lot of bollocks for being so poor or they'd be shipped out but at Arsenal they are hailed as heroes for coming 4th and paid handsomely and can continue with the charade of playing at a 'top' club.
It is only now when there is no CL so the wheels are starting to come off. You have every player either simply not giving an arse like against Liverpool or wanting to leave or refusing to sign contracts (Sanchez, Bellerin, Ozil, Ox, Mustafi if reports are true, this is half our team(!) and hence you get the current shambles that is Arsenal Football Club.
The board is loaded, dear Arsene is on 8 million a year, the players earn over £130k so the only people getting truly done over is us fans. I am simply sick of it now.
The sad thing is I don't think Wenger has necessarily lost the dressing room...he's just created a culture within it where losing and terrible attitude during games is deemed acceptable, and over time that has manifested itself into him assembling a dressing room of players who think and play in this way.
Sunday, you had instances of Liverpool players running through on goal because of Arsenal players literally turning their back on the game. It happened 5 or 6 times. Over half the players played in a way where at any of the other top clubs, you wouldn't see them again for months afterwards. Mhikitaryan played like that against City last year and it took 3 months for Jose to trust him again. With Arsenal, they'll all be in the team again next week, because they can play neat looking passes and that's all Wenger is interested in. So there's no incentive for any of them to need to get their act together.
It's been going on for years and it's just very gradually bedded in to their whole mentality and become worse and worse. I think it started as far back as 2007-2008 sort of time, when Wenger seemed to become completely obsessed with players who could pass the ball in nice looking ways. Players like Ramsey and Ozil now play like this by default. They have literally zero interest in fighting to win a football game. At any other top club they would have to either man up VERY quickly, or they would sink. At Arsenal they are praised and applauded because they can play a few one touch passes at home to Burnley.
When we played Arsenal at OT in LVG's second season, it had reached a point where Ramsey just watched Valencia run past him time and time again because Valencia knocked him over in about the 5th minute and he didn't fancy getting knocked over again. He wasn't subbed off. Imagine a Chelsea, City, United, Spurs, Liverpool, etc. player doing this and not being subbed off. They wouldn't make it past 20 minutes...it just wouldn't happen in the first place.
You can't spend years accepting this kind of attitude and expect it not to eventually become the norm. Eventually any player who has anything about them would avoid playing for a team like that in the first place, which I think is the point they've now reached.
I think you just have to look at Ox apparently turning down Chelsea as an example of the mentality there. He's been chased by a team that's won the league in two of the last three seasons, is actually in the same city as his current club, and has the financial backing to a) pay him a great deal and b) bring in quality teammates to regularly compete with the best, yet he's turned it down with an apparent preference for Liverpool, the only logical reason being that he's more likely to be a guaranteed starter at Liverpool than at Chelsea.
I think Arsenal's problems go back to 2006 when they lost the Champions League final to Barcelona. They had the "Invincibles" in 03/04, won the FA Cup in 04/05, and reached their first CL final in 05/06. However, their league form had already started to dip. They went from being unbeaten champions in 03/04, to distant runners-up in 04/05, to 4th in 05/06. Not only did they finish 4th, but they finished 4th a full 24 points off 1st, and 15 points off 3rd. Funnily enough, this marked decline coincided with the move away from Highbury, with the new stadium costs being the crutch on which they've lent for the last 10 years as an excuse for not competing.
After the "Invincibles" season they also lost a number of key players without any real attempt to properly replace them. Keown and Parlour at the end of 03/04, Viera after 04/05, Bergkamp, Pires and Cole after 05/06, Henry and Ljungberg after 06/07. More recently they've seen Fabregas and van Persie leave, and it now looks like Sanchez is off soon too. Below are the players that played 10 or more league games in Arsenal's unbeaten season in 03/04, alongside the last season they played for the club and the last season they played if they've retired:
Jens Lehmann - 07/08, returned to Arsenal in 10/11 and made 1 appearance. Ashley Cole - 05/06, now at LA Galaxy Patrick Viera - 04/05, retired at Manchester City in 10/11 Martin Keown - 03/04, retired at Reading in 04/05 Robert Pires - 05/06, retired at Aston Villa in 10/11, returned to play for Goa in 2014. Freddie Ljungberg - 06/07, retired at Shimizu S-Pulse in 2011, returned to play for Mumbai in 2014 Jose Antonio Reyes - 05/06, was at Espanyol in 16/17 but appears to be without a club currently Dennis Bergkamp - 05/06, retired at Arsenal in 05/06 Sylvain Wiltord - 03/04, retired at Nantes in 11/12 Lauren - 05/06, retired at Cordoba in 09/10 Thierry Henry - 06/07, retired at New York Red Bulls in 2014, briefly returned to Arsenal in 11/12 Ray Parlour - 03/04, retired at Hull City in 06/07 Edu - 04/05, retired at Corinthians in 2010 Pascal Cygan - 05/06, retired at Cartagena in 10/11 Gilberto Silva - 07/08, retired at Atletico Mineiro in 2013 Gael Clichy - 10/11, currently at Istanbul Basaksehir Sol Campbell - 05/06, retired at Newcastle in 10/11, returned to Arsenal in 09/10 Nwankwo Kanu - 03/04, retired at Portsmouth in 11/12 Kolo Toure - 08/09, was at Celtic in 16/17 but currently without a club Jeremie Aliadiere - 06/07, currently at Lorient
Within 3 seasons following the Invincibles season, Arsenal had lost all but 4 members (20%) of the squad that were eligible for medals, and even then, one was Clichy who made 12 appearances (7 starts), and another Jens Lehmann who was there for one more season, but made just 7 appearances. United's 07/08 CL/League double winning squad for comparison:
Edwin van der Sar - 10/11, retired at United in 10/11 Patrice Evra - 13/14, currently at Marseille Owen Hargreaves - 10/11, retired at City in 11/12 Rio Ferdinand - 13/14, retired at QPR in 14/15 Wes Brown - 10/11, currently at Kerala Blasters Cristiano Ronaldo - 08/09, currently at Real Madrid Anderson - 14/15, currently at Coritiba Louis Saha - 07/08, retired at Lazio in 2013 Wayne Rooney - 16/17, currently at Everton Ryan Giggs - 13/14, retired at United in 13/14 Park Ji Sung - 11/12, retired at PSV/QPR in 13/14 Nemanja Vidic - 13/14, retired at Inter in 2015/16 Michael Carrick - Still at the club Nani - 14/15, currently at Valencia Paul Scholes - 12/13, retired at United in 12/13 John O'Shea - 10/11, currently at Sunderland Darren Fletcher - 14/15, currently at Stoke Carlos Tevez - 08/09, currently at Shanghai Shenua
Within 3 seasons following the CL/League double, United still had 11 members (61%) of the squad, and had 5 (28%) within 6, with one still here 10 years on. United also brought in a lot more in terms of quality signings than Arsenal did.
Arsenal went without any real marquee signings until Ozil came in 13/14. The rest have been decent deals for players that they hoped would come good; the likes of Rosicky, Arteta, Cazorla, Hleb, Arshevin, Adebayor, Giroud and Gervinho. Wenger became obsessed with developing a young group of players together, perhaps trying to emulate Fergie and the Class of 92. The problem here was that as soon as any got remotely close to peaking, they were off to pastures new or simply turned out not to be good enough; Fabregas, Clichy, van Persie, Reyes, Eboue, Flamini, Walcott, Bendtner, Song, Diarra, Ramsey, Nasri, Vermaelen, Koscielny, Wilshere, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Jenkinson, Gibbs, Sanogo, Welbeck, Chambers, Xhaka and Holding all Wenger projects that as time goes on provide diminishing returns as they're not even able to sell for profit as they were 5-10 years ago.
As you said, there's only so long that you can let the rot set in before it becomes almost impossible to remove. They've a squad no with almost no experience of winning anything, with no real desire to win anything, and with a horrendously fragile mindset. While they've been prone to the odd battering over the years because of the way the play, the last few seasons have shown them to not just be outclassed on occasion, but to completely down tools. They've had a decade of "well we're paying for the stadium so we're not going to win anything" and now they find themselves in a hole that it looks like they're only sinking further in to.
A few above talking about culture at the club. The culture of the club that has been fostered has been this:
-The players have known that coming fourth is okay, the manager wasn't getting any hassle infact the manager was openly saying how coming fourth is like winning a trophy so nothing to worry about for them. Hence the reason you have seen these ridiculous celebrations when we come 4th at the last match; like they won the trophy
-Wenger is not like Fergie or Mourinho or Pep, he won't give the players a kick up the arse. Numerous times they have said he rarely loses his temper. Now I am not saying managers should be like tyrants but unless the players feel some dread re: the manager's reaction after losses then they're not going to care. The players can take a dump in the middle of the dressing room and know they won't be chastised. Which leads us to...
-the players, a lot of them preferring the status quo. Numerous times players like Giroud, Walcott, Welbeck and others have said ''we back the manager completely, this media talk is nonsense''. Well why wouldn't you back him lads? Its the one club where getting CL is enough and the manager won't be sacked for it and in return he is happy with your mediocreness. Which leads to a vicious circle of the board backing Wenger (for ££££££ as a result of CL), Wenger backing mediocre players who are cheap enough that he doesn't have to spend his employer's money but who are clearly not good enough for titles, and then players backing this manager because at any other club either they'd get a lot of bollocks for being so poor or they'd be shipped out but at Arsenal they are hailed as heroes for coming 4th and paid handsomely and can continue with the charade of playing at a 'top' club.
It is only now when there is no CL so the wheels are starting to come off. You have every player either simply not giving an arse like against Liverpool or wanting to leave or refusing to sign contracts (Sanchez, Bellerin, Ozil, Ox, Mustafi if reports are true, this is half our team(!) and hence you get the current shambles that is Arsenal Football Club.
The board is loaded, dear Arsene is on 8 million a year, the players earn over £130k so the only people getting truly done over is us fans. I am simply sick of it now.
Surely Wenger can see the giant looming sign directly in front of his eyes which states in no uncertain terms:
Selling van Persie to United will be a mistake of gargantuan proportions. Please, for the love of God, don't do it Mr Wenger. Ignore this message at your peril.
You simply do not sell your star attraction and most influential player to a direct rival, least not one that is already a strong favourite to win the league.
If Arsenal go ahead with this deal, they will prove to the world they have lost sight of their long term ambition, which is, like any big club, to win the league.
The sad thing is I don't think Wenger has necessarily lost the dressing room...he's just created a culture within it where losing and terrible attitude during games is deemed acceptable, and over time that has manifested itself into him assembling a dressing room of players who think and play in this way.
Sunday, you had instances of Liverpool players running through on goal because of Arsenal players literally turning their back on the game. It happened 5 or 6 times. Over half the players played in a way where at any of the other top clubs, you wouldn't see them again for months afterwards. Mhikitaryan played like that against City last year and it took 3 months for Jose to trust him again. With Arsenal, they'll all be in the team again next week, because they can play neat looking passes and that's all Wenger is interested in. So there's no incentive for any of them to need to get their act together.
It's been going on for years and it's just very gradually bedded in to their whole mentality and become worse and worse. I think it started as far back as 2007-2008 sort of time, when Wenger seemed to become completely obsessed with players who could pass the ball in nice looking ways. Players like Ramsey and Ozil now play like this by default. They have literally zero interest in fighting to win a football game. At any other top club they would have to either man up VERY quickly, or they would sink. At Arsenal they are praised and applauded because they can play a few one touch passes at home to Burnley.
When we played Arsenal at OT in LVG's second season, it had reached a point where Ramsey just watched Valencia run past him time and time again because Valencia knocked him over in about the 5th minute and he didn't fancy getting knocked over again. He wasn't subbed off. Imagine a Chelsea, City, United, Spurs, Liverpool, etc. player doing this and not being subbed off. They wouldn't make it past 20 minutes...it just wouldn't happen in the first place.
You can't spend years accepting this kind of attitude and expect it not to eventually become the norm. Eventually any player who has anything about them would avoid playing for a team like that in the first place, which I think is the point they've now reached.
I think Steve Bruce sent Ben Arfa packing from Hull after subbing him at half time for a similar display to what you were alluding to with Ramsey so it's not even a top 5 club thing.
Any manager worth his salt would find that kind of commitment insulting.
We are used to it now mate, this weekend at Liverpool I went to the game and before the crowd be charged up if we let in so many goals but this time it was simply a resigned reaction. Because everyone expected it.
I think Steve Bruce sent Ben Arfa packing from Hull after subbing him at half time for a similar display to what you were alluding to with Ramsey so it's not even a top 5 club thing.
Any manager worth his salt would find that kind of commitment insulting.
Yeah...I think if you're a great player in an average team you can get away with it to a degree, because your qualities still allow the team to reach their expectation level.
What you have at Arsenal is a bunch of players doing it, who ability wise are barely good enough to reach the expectation levels the fans expect them to be at, even if their mentality was spot on.
The thing with Wenger is, he's always been like this, so it's very easy to see how he's encouraged it. Even when Arsenal were really good, they'd go and lose to Bolton, or Stoke, and Wenger would always think it was unfair because of the way those teams would play. He sees having a mentality of finding a way to win the game instead of just playing in it, as somehow being wrong. If they lost to us, it would always be because of how we played, according to Wenger.
So from that you can presume he encourages his players to play the game rather than to win it. In the past he had players who wanted to win the game anyway. Now he has Mezut Ozil, who you could genuinely imagine being pleased with himself if the team lost 6-0 but he performed a nice turn in the 58th minute.
