Whatever anyone says, Berbatov is an absolute class act. Sadly, I think he'll be off.
As the great man says, there's no doubt about that.
I hope you're wrong about him leaving though.
Berbatov | Fulham player
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As the great man says, there's no doubt about that.
I hope you're wrong about him leaving though.
I actully posted as soon as I saw the line ups on Saturday that I was gutted for him.
Yep I did not read it correctly. He was saying sorry to the people of Bulgaria rather than his team mates and Fergie.
I have stated many times I do not want to see him as a 3rd choice striker. If he continues to use him as a bit part player I dont see the point and I would prefer him to move on.
I am swayed by in many cases by what I deem to be Fergies opinion. And if he is not trusted in big games by our manager. That is good enough for me.
If he's rubbed Fergie up the wrong way by not taking to the bench for the final, then it's conceivable he could be off. I'd hope that with an apology that Ferguson would be happy to forgive that. Perhaps it's not even an issue.
Here's the disconnect: He's happy to stay here, he's a 20 goal striker and he's never grumbled at playing a bit part role. I just don't see the value in weakening our striking options by selling. Who are we going to get of his quality that is happy to be third choice?
Great player, better attitude.
He's been a great servant of the club, and for a man of his ability, to take the role he has this season, without a word, to the public or manager (his words), is commendable. For all of the negativity he gets, he's a team player, and has always had the bigger picture in mind, a trait becoming decreasingly visible in top players. I hope, and think we will stay.
He's been a great servant of the club, and for a man of his ability, to take the role he has this season, without a word, to the public or manager (his words), is commendable. For all of the negativity he gets, he's a team player, and has always had the bigger picture in mind, a trait becoming decreasingly visible in top players. I hope, and think we will stay.
Agreed. He's been harshly treated IMO. Picking Owen ahead of him for the final was an unnecessary kick in the teeth for a player who's done so much for us this season. I also think it was just a bad decision. He might have made a difference with his ability to hold onto the ball in their half of the pitch.
Handled it all with dignity though. A class act, on and off the pitch.
His attitude has always been fantastic, and I find it hard to believe that SAF would take his staying in the dressing room as anything other than disappointment, especially with those quotes about feeling ashamed etc. If he'd stormed out of the stadium as was first suggested then maybe it could have become an issue, but not for being genuinely gutted.
Re your second paragraph, I agree entirely.
Tbh, it's not often you can say this, but Ferguson's man management of Berbatov has been a little shoddy in my opinion. As Pogue said, to be dropped for Owen was a proper kick in the teeth; he was entitled to be disappointed.
I was just about to say this. I'm not going to get into the whole team/squad selection but I thought that Berbatov would have a spot on the bench (with Owen) because he's deserved it with the season he's had. I think it was fair to have Owen on the bench because of ability in the box but Berbatov offers a little bit of class in the final third of the pitch as a whole. It will be tough for him here next season because Rooney and Hernandez look as if they're in the best position to form a strike partnership that will start most of our games, while Berbatov looks as if he'll probably be a member of the squad with Welbeck. How important he'll be is unknown.
I sort of agree with noodle who said that Berbatov looks like a different player when he's the main guy in the team. It was the case at Spurs, and it was the case (to an extent) when Rooney wasn't quite firing in front of goal (but still playing well enough) earlier this season. It will be a massive test of character for him to bide his time and force his way into the team. He exceeded people's expectations of him this season and made himself crucial for our title win. I doubt whether he will be able to do it again, despite his ability.
I hope I'm very wrong though.
He will stay and Wellbeck and Macheda will go back out on loan.
Chica, Roon, Berb and Owen
Fergie clearly wants 4 strikers a la Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Solskjaer.
Nothing to see here lads, move along.
Chica, Roon, Berb and Owen
Fergie clearly wants 4 strikers a la Cole, Yorke, Sheringham and Solskjaer.
Nothing to see here lads, move along.
Harsh? really? He has zero history of making a difference in this type of game at this stage of the season.
3 CL finals with 2 different clubs, not 1 start, maybe his former manager was also "harsh".
You get what you deserve in football Pogue, Berbatov has only himself to blame for not making the team or even the squad.
He made feck all difference in the last final when he came on, I struggle to see how you think he might have made a difference this time around.
Those quotes from the last page are now run on Sky Sports too:
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11667_6961684,00.html
http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11667_6961684,00.html
Welbeck. Sorry for being pedantic but that one bugs me, and yea he'll probably end up on another loan. I just hope that doesn't lead to him wanting to leave permanently, I think he's going to be brilliant.
Macheda needs a loan to a PL club where he's actually going to play football, his going to Italy was a mistake.
The way I see it:
11/12: Rooney, Berbatov, Hernandez, Owen
12/13: Rooney, Berbatov, Hernandez, Welbeck
11/12: Rooney, Berbatov, Hernandez, Owen
12/13: Rooney, Berbatov, Hernandez, Welbeck
So the logic is, because he's never been picked for a Champions League final, he should never play in one? How does that relate to 'getting what you deserve' either?
Bizzare.
I **** it's difficult to predict how much change Sir Alex feels we need to compete with Barcelona. Our squad is alittle short for the premiership but it's Barcelona we're chasing. We've been in three champions league finals and in all that time I think Berbatov has come on briefly. I think. A player of his quality should be starting......
He's a year left on his contract and it is incredibly difficult to say with any confidence what will happen. I think we'll want to sell because we might have others in mind, he's good enough TO be starting and at his age should be starting ....his value will only decrease now but no one knows.
His goalscoring has probably let him down. He's done exceptional at home. He's been 'good' away from home. I think our away form all season was a theme throughout and if Rooney isn't the problem, then Berbatov is and Sir Alex did say both had to do more away from home
Would we offer him in exchange for modric? Bale? who knows? Maybe Benezemas available on loan? Who knows? We just have to wait and see
He's a year left on his contract and it is incredibly difficult to say with any confidence what will happen. I think we'll want to sell because we might have others in mind, he's good enough TO be starting and at his age should be starting ....his value will only decrease now but no one knows.
His goalscoring has probably let him down. He's done exceptional at home. He's been 'good' away from home. I think our away form all season was a theme throughout and if Rooney isn't the problem, then Berbatov is and Sir Alex did say both had to do more away from home
Would we offer him in exchange for modric? Bale? who knows? Maybe Benezemas available on loan? Who knows? We just have to wait and see
Stop being such a drama queen Hectic. He has never started a CL final because he never produces in this type of game. History had shown SAF that Michael Owen was the better bet. If Berbatov had produced at the business end in any of his 3 seasons here then he'd have been in, he hasn't, and therefore he got exactly what he deserved sadly.
I'd say finishing as the league's highest scorer during our historic 19th league title is probably enough to deserve a place on the bench for our biggest game of the season.
Out of interest, perhaps you can remind me of Owen's extensive track record of " making a difference in this type of game at this stage of the season."
It has?
Does Owen have goals/experience from the knock-out stages of the CL that the rest of us have forgotten about?
The logic is flawed. He has never started a Champions League Final, because he never produces in this type of game?
What type of game is that then, because no other games compares to a Champions League Final, especially that he's participated in.
So, on that basis, what you are saying is 'He has never started a CL final, because he never produced in a CL Final.'
Also, his form in the last finals would have no bearing on his form this season, he's looked a completely different player.
Yes, that's why SAF picked him.
No but he's won his teams cup finals before, scored in massive games in the quarter finals of the WC, and most importantly.... he has a record of scoring off the bench.
Pretty much won the FA cup final in 2001 on his own.... Liverpool should have lost but his two goals won it for them. Scored in most of his cup final games as well. You can only judge a player on what he has competed in.
History showed Sir Alex that Michael Owen was a better bet, because he picked him this time round....
That also doesn't make sense.
That also doesn't make sense.
Why oh why did you not quote the rest of my post where I talk about him not doing it at the business end of the season? For example, had Berbatov won us the semi vs. City you can bet your life he'd have made the squad here. As I said, he has only himself to blame.
Didn't fit in with your overdramatic argument?
Check out marchi's post above, explains it in simpler terms than I did.
Feels like you'd argue with a brick wall today Hectic.
Michael Owen is nowhere near the quality of Berbatov, either in the penalty area or even more so outside at this stage of his career. He must be kept on for his experience and the knowledge he imparts to the younger strikers. More so than what he has provided on the playing field over the last 2 seasons.
In 2001 Berbatov was playing in the Champions League for Leverkusen, scoring against Liverpool in the QF en route to the final.
Not that any of this is remotely relevant as it was 10 frigging years ago.
In 2008, berbatov scored an equalising goal against Chelsea in the CC final, a game they went on to win 2-1. What was Michael Owen doing at the time?
Well, you are making several different points aren't you. As you can see, these two points don't go side by side. On one hand you are stating he didn't start because he's never performed in this type of game (paradox), the second quote is talking about the business end of three seasons, which is completely different to the former.
You've also managed to avoid the last post completely, do you still not see how it doesn't make sense?
We're now having the same conversation across three different threads now? Unbelievable!
He's nowhere near the same player he was then mate.
Doesn't explain anything at all. He's talking about a decade ago, and an FA Cup Final.
Berbatov would have offered a difference off the bench even if he was unlikely to score, in a game where we were desperately struggling to hold the ball up in the final third, he would have been useful. Whereas Owen is pretty much Hernández-lite, and Hernández had been struggling all game in terms of getting a sniff. I doubt Owen would've seen anything of the ball if he came on, it's not like we were creating much in the penalty area was it? We needed a difference in the build-up, not in the finishing. If it was a choice for the bench for, say, Blackpool at home and us needing to win, that'd be a different story.
That said, we were losing either way.
That said, we were losing either way.
Ok sorry, in more simple terms again to hopefully finally shut you up:
Berba has featured in 5 cup final in his career, scoring 0 goals from open play and 1 pen.
Owen from the top of my head has won Liverpool an FA Cup with a double, scored in a CC final win for them too and scored a goal for us in the CC final too.
There you go.
ah ok, so when I say "history" I can't actually mean history.
Hectic... meet brick wall, I'm out.
As I've mentioned before, how much did his introduction help the last time v. Barca with all this "hold up play" I'm hearing of?
The last sentence was bang on feeky.
And now I really am OUT...
Now you are just avoiding your first point - because it doesn't make sense, and now including all finals, despite the relation between a Carling Cup Final, and a Champions League Final being non-existent.
Thanks, I've been shut up now.
Also worth noting that Fergie said he picked Owen for the bench ahead of Berbatov in case we were chasing the game and needed a goal.
Turns out that's exactly what happened. We ended up chasing the game and needed a goal.
So where the feck was Michael Owen?
that's right. Rooted to the bench.
Definitely one of Fergie's stranger decisions in his time at the club, if you ask me. Why select a player you didn't rate enough to bring on when we really needed hiim, whilst simultaneously disheartening a player whose United career hasn't exactly been characterised by supreme self-confidence.
If Fergie wants to ship Berbatov out in the summer, then fair enough.
If not, it just seems like bad man-management (never thought I'd say that about the gaffer!)
Turns out that's exactly what happened. We ended up chasing the game and needed a goal.
So where the feck was Michael Owen?
that's right. Rooted to the bench.
Definitely one of Fergie's stranger decisions in his time at the club, if you ask me. Why select a player you didn't rate enough to bring on when we really needed hiim, whilst simultaneously disheartening a player whose United career hasn't exactly been characterised by supreme self-confidence.
If Fergie wants to ship Berbatov out in the summer, then fair enough.
If not, it just seems like bad man-management (never thought I'd say that about the gaffer!)
My thoughts entirely but couldn't be arsed going into it tbh - too many extreme views without any consideration for an alternative
For me, Fergie is right 99% of the time and usually right for the remaining 1% but sometimes just totally switches off with some players. Maybe with good reason as time may tell.
Hindsight is always easy but I'm baffled why he had midfielders on the bench he didn't use and a striker who would've found the same problems as Hernandez when he could've had an alternative to hold possession with Berbatov.
Looks to me like Berbs' time is up and the team might move on to another phase like we've done so many times before
Pogue, we were well in damage control, Fergie was ensuring we didn't lose ANOTHER goal and ensure the scoreline wasn't even more destructive, I was thankful they didn't score again!
Had it been 2-1 and we had more of the ball rather than the 30% we had all game, Owen would've been on...
Presumably Owen didn't come on because we weren't creating chances.
Not to mention talking about loading the midfield and picking three CM's on the bench when we only had two on the field. Even if both of them tired we were either going to have to make three subs in there with no attacking changes or one of them was going to sit it out regardless. That seemed downright fecking bizarre to me.