Berbatov

[Ekeke]

Backed up now so your points are invalidated.

Nevermind.

Your argument has petered out...

You cannot find a direct link between Sahas pace and Rooneys form that season because it has very little to do with it. Speed of thought maybe, but pace was secondary to Sahas intelligence and ability.

So Saha is more intelligent and and has more ability than Ruud had the season before where the partnership didnt work quite as well? Saha is more intelligent and has more ability than Tevez?

I cant agree with either. The only thing Saha has over either player is his pace and movement.

 

[Younited.7]

Tribal

I watched the interview myself. He was directly asked, when talking about a new striker :

"Someone with height?"

His response :

"Possibly"

Yes. It's possible we might get someone with height. But its not something he himself brought up. Just something he didnt deny might be something he could look for.

If he were asked "Someone with speed?"

Would he have said :

"No." ?

He'd most likely have said "Possibly."

Prove it.

 

[Ekeke]

Backed up now so your points are invalidated.

Nevermind.

Your argument has petered out...

You cannot find a direct link between Sahas pace and Rooneys form that season because it has very little to do with it. Speed of thought maybe, but pace was secondary to Sahas intelligence and ability.

Yes it may have been Frances undoing in the Euros but who ran onto the ball...

Luca Toni - slowest striker in christendom.

France didnt only play against Italy. It was a common theme in all 3 matches. You're right though Toni isnt a fast striker - he's a tank always on the move and looking to get in behind and unbeatable in the air. Berbatov doesnt play the same way. If he did, he'd be a better option.

 

[Ekeke]

Prove it.

Okay.

I saw it with my own eyes. There you go. Prove I didn't see the interview.

 

[Fergies Formula]

So Saha is more intelligent and and has more ability than Ruud had the season before where the partnership didnt work quite as well? Saha is more intelligent and has more ability than Tevez?

I cant agree with either. The only thing Saha has over either player is his pace and movement.

exactly the movement is where the intelligence comes in!

come on man, how you cant see that berbatov would be a dream for the lads is insane, he would be pivotal for them, having someone to aim at and play off whilst having a player which you know is gonna keep his composure and show all his experience when it matters. The interchanging between these players would be frightening

 

[KeyserSoze]

Put it this way. We're replacing the fastest striker in our squad for the past few years. We're going to replace him with a striker who is slower than all our other strikers?

Yes, maybe so but the fact that we know Fergie likes him as a player and dont know if he likes Villa etc should say something. Berbatov has an arrogance and natural abiltity that he has always seemed to like whether it be Cantona, Sheringham or Di Canio and Gascgoine who he has shown admiration for.

Saha did that for Rooney, Tevez did not.

This I agree with but I get a feeling that if Rooney had displayed the finishing instinct that he has at earlier times this would be a non issue. He played well for us in that role and played a part in the success of others.

Drogba and Van Persie have good pace. Kuyt also has some pace and Eduardo too if you've watched him, is quite quick. Voronin isn't that fast, but he's faster than Berbatov. Sadly that small amount of speed is all Voronin has.

Berbatov's finishing is better than Rooney and Tevez, but its not top notch. Often he'll hit a post when he really should score. Its good enough.

Berbatov plays for Spurs dropping off of Keane and letting him do the running, orchestrating things from behind. Which is largely what Tevez did for Rooney this season.

I disagree with these points. I think he is just as fast as the players mentioned and that comparisons to Voronin are misjudged, he is also a better finisher than you seem to think. I saw Keane dropping off him a lot as well and orchestrating things neither of them stuck to a set role.

Me and you are going to go round in circles on these points, maybe someone like GlastonSpur should clear it up.

 

[Younited.7]

So Saha is more intelligent and and has more ability than Ruud had the season before where the partnership didnt work quite as well? Saha is more intelligent and has more ability than Tevez?

I cant agree with either. The only thing Saha has over either player is his pace and movement.

With the ball at his feet...

Yes

Which is very important.

Saha was injured for nearly that whole season, so what are you basing that on?

You talk rubbish man

And yes, Saha, the bloke who was rated above Henry at the French academy has more ability on the ball than Tevez. His touch is sublime, that has always been known since his early Fulham days, Tevez is not the same player - he has other traits.

 

[Younited.7]

Okay.

I saw it with my own eyes. There you go. Prove I didn't see the interview.

Your statement is more whimsical than mine.

I have at least provided a source even if it is usually dodgy regarding transfers.

 

[Ekeke]

Yes, maybe so but the fact that we know Fergie likes him as a player and dont know if he likes Villa etc should say something. Berbatov has an arrogance and natural abiltity that he has always seemed to like whether it be Cantona, Sheringham or Di Canio and Gascgoine who he has shown admiration for.

Well I dont really care if we get Villa himself. But having someone in he and Etoo's ilk, even if its a much less profile player who would be third choice, is where we'd be benefitted most because we've got the other types of strikers covered and thats the type of striker that Rooney and Tevez have worked best with (Rooney and Saha for united, Tevez and Messi for argentina). And of course, its fairly obvious Manucho needs movement next to him. Even his country played a far more pacey and energetic striker next to him.

This i agree with but i get that if Rooney had displayed the finishing instinct that he has at earlier times this would be an issue. He played well for us in that role and played a part in the success of others.

The thing is, Rooney, despite purple patches, will never be a natural finisher. He will always miss chances he should score. And the more important those misses, the more flak he'll get for it. Playing him in the leading striker role exposes his frailty in this area. For all the good work he does, his finishing can be very poor.

Its easy to see Rooney is at his best as an offstriker. SAF's comments at the end of the season seemed to suggest he agrees and he'll be looking to fix that for this season.

I disagree with these points. I think he is just as fast as the players mentioned and that comparisons to Voronin are misjudged, he is also a better finisher than you seem to think. I saw Keane dropping off him a lot as well and orchestrating things neither of them stuck to a set role.

That last bit is true too. Its exactly what we were told Tevez and Rooney would do - keep swapping. It never really materialised with us, but now and again Spurs did that. But Keane does most of the leg work in front of Berbatov who is more interested in dropping off and creating. Keane is the one who likes to go in for the kill and score the goals, which is partly why his scoring record is good.

 

[Ekeke]

Your statement is more whimsical than mine.

I have at least provided a source even if it is usually dodgy regarding transfers.

Well, you were trying to convince me that there were quotes to backup what you said. Clearly it was important to you to do that.

I've got no interest in convincing you that I saw the interview and know that they have messed up his quotes. Knowing that myself is enough.

 

[Ekeke]

With the ball at his feet...

Yes

Which is very important.

Saha was injured for nearly that whole season, so what are you basing that on?

You talk rubbish man

And yes, Saha, the bloke who was rated above Henry at the French academy has more ability on the ball than Tevez. His touch is sublime, that has always been known since his early Fulham days, Tevez is not the same player - he has other traits.

Saha's touch is sublime? More ability on the ball? ... What?

For crying out loud Go ahead then, what are Tevez' other traits, which arent as good as Saha with the ball at his feet?

 

[Younited.7]

So Keane does most of the leg work in front of Berbatov, but, Rooney did most of the leg work behind Ruud and Saha.

So it doesn't actually matter where you play.

It just doesn't matter, either way - it is a partnership and they swap and interchange like nearly the whole of our forward line. It isn't just that Rooney plays best deep behind a striker because he will always end up on the wing, up front or in midfield - a free role is what suits him best.

Berbatov is the binding agent in a striking partnership, as was Saha (who didn't base his game on pace).

 

[Ekeke]

The only truly outstanding thing about Saha was his pace and movement behind the defence.

And Berbatov is best suited to a free role too. Or rather, thats how he plays for Spurs.

 

[Younited.7]

Saha's touch is sublime? More ability on the ball? ... What?

For crying out loud Go ahead then, what are Tevez' other traits, which arent as good as Saha with the ball at his feet?

I said that Tevez relies on other traits - not to say he isn't very good on the ball but Saha could play through balls (often one touch), lay the ball off, keep the ball and beat a man with one touch.

If anybody relies more on their pace it is Tevez, that combined with his strength make him very good running with the ball. He is energetic, gets himself into all manner of positions and supports play - like Rooney, hence the comparison.

Saha is an unbelievably intelligent footballer - not a pace man or a speed merchant, though he does have some gas.

What are you saying?

- Sahas touch isn't sublime.

- He doesn't have more ability or a wider array of talents with the ball at his feet?

The first is undebatable, the second is debatable - either way you have strayed from the point about pace, conveniently.

 

[Younited.7]

The only truly outstanding thing about Saha was his pace and movement behind the defence.

And Berbatov is best suited to a free role too. Or rather, thats how he plays for Spurs.

What that same bloke who you said is slower than half of the premierships strikers?

Do you know what the role entails and why it even exists?

How you can sit there and say that all Saha is capable of is pace and movement i don't know. That astounds me.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Another thing to bare im mind if we are going to play two up top next season is that the forwards dont have to have set complimentary attributes to be successful. It is all about how they feed off each other, the team they play for and the confidence of the players.

Beardsley-Cole
Bergkamp-Henry
Shearer-Sutton
Phillips-Quinn
Cole-Yorke
Fowler-Owen
Gudjohnsen-Hasselbaink

The top partnerships to play in the premiership as I see them have all been very different.

 

[Ekeke]

Another thing to bare im mind if we are going to play two up top next season is that the forwards dont have to have set complimentary attributes to be successful. It is all about how they feed of each other, the team they play for and the confidence of the players.

Beardsley-Cole
Bergkamp-Henry
Shearer-Sutton
Phillips-Quinn
Cole-Yorke
Fowler-Owen
Gudjohnsen-Hasselbaink

The top partnerships to play in the premiership as i see them have all been very different.

Cole, Henry, Phillips, Cole, Owen and Hasselbaink - All except one of the partnerships there had 1 fast player. The other partnership had 2 very direct finishers.

Tevez - Berbatov. 2 creative players with little pace.

 

[Younited.7]

Another thing to bare im mind if we are going to play two up top next season is that the forwards dont have to have set complimentary attributes to be successful. It is all about how they feed of each other, the team they play for and the confidence of the players.

Beardsley-Cole
Bergkamp-Henry
Shearer-Sutton
Phillips-Quinn
Cole-Yorke
Fowler-Owen
Gudjohnsen-Hasselbaink

The top partnerships to play in the premiership as i see them have all been very different.

A lot of the time Henry played behind Bergkamp, he drifted out to the wings and cut defences apart by drifting around Bergkamp who acted as more of a playmaker forward.

Not to say he didn't drop off from time to time - that is the sign of a great partnership - interchanging of roles, something Keane and Berbatov do very very well.

 

[Sam]

i know you are in love with Villa, as is Sam#1 after watching him for two games.

Please don't say things about me which are not true.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Cole, Henry, Phillips, Cole, Owen and Hasselbaink - All except one of the partnerships there had 1 fast player. The other partnership had 2 very direct finishers.

Tevez - Berbatov. 2 creative players with little pace.

Some of them may have been fast but once again it is arguable that any of them are faster or in some cases much faster than what we have now or even Berbatov in some cases. Henry and Owen in his prime are a given though. It is the you need someone playing on the last shoulder premise that i am talking about here for me Owen and Cole at times are the only ones which fit that criteria. Bergkamp-Henry were equally creative and Henry always started from an outside position. Cole-Yorke and Fowler-Owen were also very similar players in most aspects. Phillips and Quinn are the only stereotypical partnership i can see there in the little and large aspect.

 

[Younited.7]

Cole, Henry, Phillips, Cole, Owen and Hasselbaink - All except one of the partnerships there had 1 fast player. The other partnership had 2 very direct finishers.

Tevez - Berbatov. 2 creative players with little pace.

Rooney-Berbatov is obviously the primary partnership. Rooney has Pace and creativity, Berbatov has lots of qualities - a beautiful blend.

Tevez does not lack pace, he isn't the quickest but you can't say that he lacks pace.

"direct finishers"

Where does this terminology originate from?

Sounds like you are making up labels, which still doesn't prove that these partnerships wouldn't work. Berbatov is very good at finishing, a natural, 1-on-1 i would always put money on him scoring and the good thing is that he certainly isn't selfish.

I don't think you can pigeon hole somebody of Berbatov or Rooneys talent, they are many things and having two players of that class up front would do wonders considering what else we have coming onto ball...

Ronaldo
Nani
Giggs
Anderson
Tevez

They have all the qualities between them to form an unbelievable partnership and i think anybody who speaks so vehemently on the contrary is completely backward.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Please don't say things about me which are not true.

In what respect? People quoted you directly after one of the Spain games and you admitted it was the first few times you had seen him play properly. I was not having a go at you or anything but it is true, its not a big deal though.

 

[Brwned]

Cole, Henry, Phillips, Cole, Owen and Hasselbaink - All except one of the partnerships there had 1 fast player. The other partnership had 2 very direct finishers.

Tevez - Berbatov. 2 creative players with little pace.

Berbatov-Rooney, a partnership with pace, height, strength, creativity and finishing ability.

Don't change facts to strengthen your argument. If we got Berbatov our main striking partnerships would be Tevez-Rooney and Berbatov-Rooney.

Villa-Rooney, a partnership with pace, strength, creativity and finishing ability. Unfortunately no height.

 

[Sam]

In what respect? People quoted you directly after one of the Spain games and you admitted it was the first few times you had seen him play properly. I was not having a go at you or anything but it is true, its not a big deal though.

I don't 'love him', I was just very impressed. And yes, it was one of the only times I've seen him play, but to say I'm in love with him is a little OTT. Anyway, no point getting in an argument over it.

 

[Sam]

Well lets be honest, you have seen him only a few times yet made a thread about him stating how he would be a great option for us.

No I didn't.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Villa-Rooney, a partnership with pace, strength, creativity and finishing ability. Unfortunately no height.

Unless we bring Manucho into the equation. Get him off the bench if our main plan isn't working. Of course it all depends on if we get a work permit.

 

[esmufc07]

We all know there is only one love for Sam out there

Seriously though, how many threads has Berbatov been talked about in? Can't we just end it, it is becoming rather tedious now.

 

[AttackingFlair]

I said that Tevez relies on other traits - not to say he isn't very good on the ball but Saha could play through balls (often one touch), lay the ball off, keep the ball and beat a man with one touch.

If anybody relies more on their pace it is Tevez, that combined with his strength make him very good running with the ball. He is energetic, gets himself into all manner of positions and supports play - like Rooney, hence the comparison.

Saha is an unbelievably intelligent footballer - not a pace man or a speed merchant, though he does have some gas.

What are you saying?

- Sahas touch isn't sublime.

- He doesn't have more ability or a wider array of talents with the ball at his feet?

The first is undebatable, the second is debatable - either way you have strayed from the point about pace, conveniently.

 

[Brwned]

No I didn't.

I realise it was Ekeke who made the thread now. But you still did come out with:

First time I've been able to really watch him for a full 90 minutes, my verdict....

He's amazing!

I want him!

Not like that, you perverts.

I want Villa, he's amazing!

Really worried Liverpool may get him though...

 

[Brwned]

Unless we bring Manucho into the equation. Get him off the bench if our main plan isn't working. Of course it all depends on if we get a work permit.

True. Although we would have to wait until January at least, probably the start of next season imo so that he has a few months to settle in. I'm not too convinced by him yet. I seen him in the ANC but that means absolutely nothing, the best player award for the last two ANC's have been Egyptian so that should say it all.

 

[KeyserSoze]

True. Although we would have to wait until January at least, probably the start of next season imo so that he has a few months to settle in. I'm not too convinced by him yet. I seen him in the ANC but that means absolutely nothing, the best player award for the last two ANC's have been Egyptian so that should say it all.

Agreed. I doubt anyone here has seen enough of him at a high enough level to make a judgement on the impact he could have for our team. Though Fergie obviously see's something in him... which is what matters.

 

[Ekeke]

Berbatov-Rooney, a partnership with pace, height, strength, creativity and finishing ability.

Don't change facts to strengthen your argument. If we got Berbatov our main striking partnerships would be Tevez-Rooney and Berbatov-Rooney.

Villa-Rooney, a partnership with pace, strength, creativity and finishing ability. Unfortunately no height.

My point is that 2 of our 3 strikers couldnt play next to Berbatov. Which means Rooney has to play each and every game.

Thats a worry. When you have a pool of 4 strikers, you want most of them to be able to play together.

 

[Ekeke]

I realise it was Ekeke who made the thread now. But you still did come out with:

Um no, stop changing facts. I did no such thing. I made a thread saying Villa is one move away from being considered the top striker in the world. On the football forum. Before anyone watched "2 matches".

It was my appreciation of him as a player. And my prediction. We'll see how that goes a year from now when hes most likely playing for Barcelona or Madrid.

 

[Bape]

My point is that 2 of our 3 strikers couldnt play next to Berbatov. Which means Rooney has to play each and every game.

Thats a worry. When you have a pool of 4 strikers, you want most of them to be able to play together.

Why do you insist in thinking Berbatov can only operate in behind the striker? Just 'cos he plays that role for Spurs, it doesn't mean he can't play up top or lead the line, especially with our interchanging forwards, he can do his fair share of dropping back as well. You do realise he actually played as a proper centre forward at his time at Leverkusen right?

If anything, Berbatov would be able to play with any our strikers if he comes, he'll be able to lead the line when partnering Tevez or Rooney and can play behind Manucho if needed.

 

[Ekeke]

Some of them may have been fast but once again it is arguable that any of them are faster or in some cases much faster than what we have now or even Berbatov in some cases. Henry and Owen in his prime are a given though. It is the you need someone playing on the last shoulder premise that i am talking about here for me Owen and Cole at times are the only ones which fit that criteria. Bergkamp-Henry were equally creative and Henry always started from an outside position. Cole-Yorke and Fowler-Owen were also very similar players in most aspects. Phillips and Quinn are the only stereotypical partnership i can see there in the little and large aspect.

Henry-Bergkamp was the partnership Arsenal had when they were accused of trying to walk the ball into the goal too often and lacking a plan B.

The only other partnership of those mentioned that wasnt 1 creative player and 1 speedy player, was Shearer and Sutton.

 

[Giggsy PO]

David Villa is really slow.

 

[Brwned]

My point is that 2 of our 3 strikers couldnt play next to Berbatov. Which means Rooney has to play each and every game.

Thats a worry. When you have a pool of 4 strikers, you want most of them to be able to play together.

Fair enough, but I think pace is overrated. And I'm not just saying that because you prefer Villa over pretty much everyone because he is pacey, but just in general. It is hyped up by the media as if it is the be all and end all "If there's one thing defenders hate playing against, it's pace" and all that bollocks.

I think that Berbatov and Tevez could play well quite easily, I'm sure disagree though.

But, seeing as Manucho won't be ready for the start of next season, our 4 strikers would be Rooney, Tevez, Campbell and New Striker. Berbatov could play very well with Campbell and Rooney, but not with Tevez iyo. Villa could play well with Rooney and Tevez, but not with Campbell. Therefore it depends what way you want to look at it.

It all comes down to preferences, and it is quite clear for everyone to see SAF prefers Berbatov over Villa.

 

[Ekeke]

Why do you insist in thinking Berbatov can only operate in behind the striker? Just 'cos he plays that role for Spurs, it doesn't mean he can't play up top or lead the line, especially with our interchanging forwards, he can do his fair share of dropping back as well. You do realise he actually played as a proper centre forward at his time at Leverkusen right?

If anything, Berbatov would be able to play with any our strikers if he comes, he'll be able to lead the line when partnering Tevez or Rooney and can play behind Manucho if needed.

I dont insist thats the only place he can operate. Just pointing out thats where he's spent most of his season, like Tevez has done behind Rooney.

Berbatov actually seemed more mobile back at Leverkusen as well.

Tevez-Berbatov and Berbatov-Manucho are two slower partnerships than we've had for a long time. Rooney-Berbatov less so, but we need a player who can play next to more than 1 of our strikers. Else we'll have Ronaldo up front again.

 

[Brwned]

Um no, stop changing facts. I did no such thing. I made a thread saying Villa is one move away from being considered the top striker in the world. On the football forum. Before anyone watched "2 matches".

It was my appreciation of him as a player. And my prediction. We'll see how that goes a year from now when hes most likely playing for Barcelona or Madrid.

Oh no I realised that, but I remember Sam was the one who said in that thread to sign him after only watching him for 90 minutes a few minutes before. I know you didn't say anything like that.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Henry-Bergkamp was the partnership Arsenal had when they were accused of trying to walk the ball into the goal too often and lacking a plan B.

The only other partnership of those mentioned that wasnt 1 creative player and 1 speedy player, was Shearer and Sutton.

Phillips-Quinn and Gudjohnsen-Hasselbaink could not be classed as speedy either in my opinion, Phillips more buzzed around and got on to flick ons. The speed, speed, speed was not what i was getting at anyway i was talking about the premise of having someone hovering on the last shoulder as most of our debates have been about. A lot of those parterships did not operate in a stereotypical way whether one of them was fast or not.