Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
PedroMendez said:
How does that respond to @Don't Kill Bill argument? Imo he is spot on.
In total (for the whole country) immigration is a net-positive, but for certain segments of society it is detrimental. It is fairly cynical to tell these people, that they have to shut up and take it, because it is "good for society". By no means does this justify the claims of the Brexit campaign, but it also means, that not everybody who is against immigration, is a racist. The immigrants (except those that are rich) don´t move to (upper) middle class neighbourhoods and compete with engineers or lawyers. They compete with low skilled workers for jobs and move to their areas.
The contempt that is lately shown towards parts of the (low-income)middle and working-class, because they don´t vote like the mainstream likes it, is quite mindboggling. I kind of expect that from conservatives, but not from the center-left......It pushes them toward extremists on both sides of the spectrum.
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Thing is though it wasn't just those areas that voted to leave. The highest Leave vote was Boston who have legitimate reasons to have problems with immigration but thats an exception to the general rule which was middle-class, rural and suburban England carrying the vote. Even working class areas that voted out (such as the North East and South Wales) are the working class areas with the lowest levels of immigration.

So, whilst its obviously not correct to say that nobody had legitimate fears in regards to immigration, to deny that xenophobia and racism had any role whatsoever (consciously or subconsciously) is as equally incorrect. And tbh the fact that the country has had unashamedly racist propaganda blasted at it from the Daily Mail on a, well, daily basis makes that unsurprising.
 
Have there been any studies on the net financial impact brought by migrants from EU10 countries?
 
PedroMendez said:
How does that respond to @Don't Kill Bill argument? Imo he is spot on.
In total (for the whole country) immigration is a net-positive, but for certain segments of society it is detrimental. It is fairly cynical to tell these people, that they have to shut up and take it, because it is "good for society". By no means does this justify the claims of the Brexit campaign, but it also means, that not everybody who is against immigration, is a racist. The immigrants (except those that are rich) don´t move to (upper) middle class neighbourhoods and compete with engineers or lawyers. They compete with low skilled workers for jobs and move to their areas.
The contempt that is lately shown towards parts of the (low-income)middle and working-class, because they don´t vote like the mainstream likes it, is quite mindboggling. I kind of expect that from conservatives, but not from the center-left......It pushes them toward extremists on both sides of the spectrum.
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That's quite patronising since immigrants tend to be quite diverse in terms of skill. Most immigrants I know are highly skilled. The NHS would collapse without foreign immigrants . I think it's more the case of a big sector of society (most working class) are more gullible (mainly due to lack of academic experience in analysing an argument from many points of views) and easier to sway with lies then others. Politicians had created this big monster by blaming everything on the eu only to end up being swept aside when it went out of control
 
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PedroMendez said:
The contempt that is lately shown towards parts of the (low-income)middle and working-class, because they don´t vote like the mainstream likes it, is quite mindboggling. I kind of expect that from conservatives, but not from the center-left......It pushes them toward extremists on both sides of the spectrum.
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Except it was just such a mindset which held sway among the centre-left during the late-90s and early 2000s, which led to the rise of the BNP. And people who would compare UKIP to the FN, or the British National Front of the 80s, have short memories indeed. Griffin would speak openly about the notion of mass deportations, whereas Farage and co have their roots in economic differences/Euroscepticism.

I would also argue, that the indifference of Westminster has fostered a blurring of the lines between asylum seekers and economic migrants. If we'd had a more sensible debate during the previous decade or so, the prospect of assisting Yazidis or children would have been but a formality.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Except it was just such a mindset which held sway among the centre-left during the late-90s and early 2000s, which led to the rise of the BNP. And people who would compare UKIP to the FN, or the British National Front of the 80s, have short memories indeed. Griffin would talk speak openly about the notion of mass deportations, whereas Farage and co have their roots in economic differences/Euroscepticism.
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Nigel "migrants clogging up the M25" is a massive race baiter.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Thing is though it wasn't just those areas that voted to leave. The highest Leave vote was Boston who have legitimate reasons to have problems with immigration but thats an exception to the general rule which was middle-class, rural and suburban England carrying the vote. Even working class areas that voted out (such as the North East and South Wales) are the working class areas with the lowest levels of immigration.

So, whilst its obviously not correct to say that nobody had legitimate fears in regards to immigration, to deny that xenophobia and racism had any role whatsoever (consciously or subconsciously) is as equally incorrect. And tbh the fact that the country has had unashamedly racist propaganda blasted at it from the Daily Mail on a, well, daily basis makes that unsurprising.
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I have no doubt that racism played a huge part. In fact I´d say that xenophobia was one of the main reasons for this result. But the question should be, why so many people are starting to express these views lately. I am not trying to defend racism, but to explain/understand it. If your analysis stops with "they are deplorable racist dicks", your only response will be name-calling, which won´t solve anything. In fact it makes things worse, because it further alienates these people and shuts down any debate.
There are many reasons for xenophobia. I think that uncertainty about the economic future and fear of social decline are the driving force (obviously there are also many other causes). If you look at polls and election results somewhere between 20%-40% of the people might be in danger to go down the road of supporting (one way or the other) racists views. These are simply too many people to tell them to feck-off. The first step has to be, that the dialogue about immigration has to change.
 
Silva said:
Nigel "migrants clogging up the M25" is a massive race baiter.
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Farage was increasingly prepared to be cynical when it came to playing on those fears, i do not deny, and pursued that ludicrous argument about AIDS during the GE debates, but Nick Griffin he is not. This is a good thing though, as heretofore the UK electorate poor ground for such brazen types as Jean-Marie Le Penn.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Farage was increasingly prepared to be cynical when it came to playing on those fears, i do not deny, and pursued that ludicrous argument about AIDS during the GE debates, but Nick Griffin he is not. This is a good thing though, as heretofore the UK electorate poor ground for such brazen types as Jean-Marie Le Penn.
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Yeah you'd never see old Nigel standing be hide Nazi propaganda. Oh.........

main-farage-solution-1.jpg


The campaign that use Nazi propaganda won(And after the vote - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ice-england-wales-eu-referendum-a7126706.html), Mr Le Penn(and now his massive cnut of a daughter) would have gone down a storm in this country, sadly. Whatever reasons people had for voting out, the end result has legitimised racism and xenophobia.
 
Sweet Square said:
Mr Le Penn(and now his massive cnut of a daughter) would have gone down a storm in this country, sadly. Whatever reasons people had for voting out, the end result has legitimised racism and xenophobia.
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This country would not embrace a holocaust denier as a serious political force, you are going way OTT.

The majority of immigration debate in this country is rooted in pressures on services/housing/infrastructure and the implications of cheaper workers on the labour market. If government actually respected their concerns and sought to alleviate them (instead of undertaking a 'listening exercise' or categorising them as racist), much progress could be made.
 
So we're debating degrees of racism and xenophobia now. Nigel Farage fascism lite good, Nick Griffin jack booted thug bad. Jim Davidson's Chalky White jokes good, Bernard Manning's paki bashing bad.

I've stood toe to toe with the jack booted pricks and without the public support of enough racist lite voices in society they shrivel up quicker than they would if their gran had walked in the room and caught them playing with it. Suggesting that there are acceptable degrees of xenophobia in society sees them celebrating their tumescence safe in the knowledge that those around them share their views.

Conversations heard just this Saturday night in the working men's club in the only part of provincial England that didn't vote for Brexit consisted of such gems as "nah mate, she's gone full blown jihadi, dressed up like a post box 'n all" about a neighbour who converted to islaam after remarrying a couple of years ago and has the audacity to wear a head scarf and "nah, I'm sick of fecking work, I'm gonna have 4 kids and get the council to put us up and pay us a fortune, I should be alright as I know a bit of Polish. Guten tag is Polish isn't it?". Not things I'd ever heard uttered in there prior to Brexit but worryingly prevalent now which was the same attitude the NF thrived in in the 1970s.

There's no such thing as a mild dose of AIDS and there's no such thing as an understandable or tolerable level of racism.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Well, its clearly what you think they are because that is the easiest way to dismiss them. I wonder whether in fact you have no idea about them or the reasons, right or wrong for the way that they voted.

Personally I agree with you, that as a nation we should have voted to remain but I live in Rotherham and to say immigration has had no detrimental effects and that no one has any legitimate concerns about the issues it raises and the challenges it causes, that's denial.

Your blanket refusal to address the concerns and to castigate those who raise them as racists or xenophobes is why the political establishment can't respond to the challenge. I think people who hold your view are more dangerous than the racists because there will always be stupid racists and as long as we can argue the issues we can resolve them and move on but you and people like you can't argue the issues. You have already decided there aren't any and you are loosing on every front and in every country in the EU.

Carry on and see where it leads.
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I would adress the lack of housing, the insecure work etc. I wouldn't blame it on migrants because they are not the reason for it.
 
Bury Red said:
Conversations heard just this Saturday night in the working men's club in the only part of provincial England that didn't vote for Brexit consisted of such gems as "nah mate, she's gone full blown jihadi, dressed up like a post box 'n all" about a neighbour who converted to islaam after remarrying a couple of years ago and has the audacity to wear a head scarf and "nah, I'm sick of fecking work, I'm gonna have 4 kids and get the council to put us up and pay us a fortune, I should be alright as I know a bit of Polish. Guten tag is Polish isn't it?". Not things I'd ever heard uttered in there prior to Brexit but worryingly prevalent now which was the same attitude the NF thrived in in the 1970s.

There's no such thing as a mild dose of AIDS and there's no such thing as an understandable or tolerable level of racism.
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:lol:

I think that says more about the shitholes you drink in then it does anything else
 
Bury Red said:
So we're debating degrees of racism and xenophobia now. Nigel Farage fascism lite good, Nick Griffin jack booted thug bad. Jim Davidson's Chalky White jokes good, Bernard Manning's paki bashing bad.

I've stood toe to toe with the jack booted pricks and without the public support of enough racist lite voices in society they shrivel up quicker than they would if their gran had walked in the room and caught them playing with it. Suggesting that there are acceptable degrees of xenophobia in society sees them celebrating their tumescence safe in the knowledge that those around them share their views.

Conversations heard just this Saturday night in the working men's club in the only part of provincial England that didn't vote for Brexit consisted of such gems as "nah mate, she's gone full blown jihadi, dressed up like a post box 'n all" about a neighbour who converted to islaam after remarrying a couple of years ago and has the audacity to wear a head scarf and "nah, I'm sick of fecking work, I'm gonna have 4 kids and get the council to put us up and pay us a fortune, I should be alright as I know a bit of Polish. Guten tag is Polish isn't it?". Not things I'd ever heard uttered in there prior to Brexit but worryingly prevalent now which was the same attitude the NF thrived in in the 1970s.
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I would recommend that you find an alternative watering hole. Such has rarely the background chatter in the pubs and bars near me.


Bury Red said:
There's no such thing as a mild dose of AIDS and there's no such thing as an understandable or tolerable level of racism.
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Quite so, but then no-one was suggesting otherwise.
 
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PedroMendez said:
I have no doubt that racism played a huge part. In fact I´d say that xenophobia was one of the main reasons for this result. But the question should be, why so many people are starting to express these views lately. I am not trying to defend racism, but to explain/understand it. If your analysis stops with "they are deplorable racist dicks", your only response will be name-calling, which won´t solve anything. In fact it makes things worse, because it further alienates these people and shuts down any debate.
There are many reasons for xenophobia. I think that uncertainty about the economic future and fear of social decline are the driving force (obviously there are also many other causes). If you look at polls and election results somewhere between 20%-40% of the people might be in danger to go down the road of supporting (one way or the other) racists views. These are simply too many people to tell them to feck-off. The first step has to be, that the dialogue about immigration has to change.
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Of course, but at the same time you have to (as you have done) call a spade a spade sometimes.

I agree with you that economic and social decline drove the Brexit vote and fuelled xenophobia but I'd also argue that it didn't create the xenophobia in the first place. Everyone has their implicit biases and prejudices and we're not yet in a society where race doesn't matter. Even those of us on here who will vehemently deny being xenophobic (as I'd hope we all would) will have said, done, or thought things that are xenophobic before; humans like to identify with similar groups to the exclusion of others. That those feelings are exasperated in times of competition (perceived or actual) from an 'other' and in a climate where politicians and the press are perfectly happy to fan the flames of hatred for their own aims is unsurprising.

I think the biggest problems are the fact that we as a country have allowed the unchallenged publication of racist drivel and allowed politicians to palm off the failure of social and economic development in areas like the North East and are now reaping what has been sown.
 
Bury Red said:
So we're debating degrees of racism and xenophobia now. Nigel Farage fascism lite good, Nick Griffin jack booted thug bad. Jim Davidson's Chalky White jokes good, Bernard Manning's paki bashing bad.

I've stood toe to toe with the jack booted pricks and without the public support of enough racist lite voices in society they shrivel up quicker than they would if their gran had walked in the room and caught them playing with it. Suggesting that there are acceptable degrees of xenophobia in society sees them celebrating their tumescence safe in the knowledge that those around them share their views.

Conversations heard just this Saturday night in the working men's club in the only part of provincial England that didn't vote for Brexit consisted of such gems as "nah mate, she's gone full blown jihadi, dressed up like a post box 'n all" about a neighbour who converted to islaam after remarrying a couple of years ago and has the audacity to wear a head scarf and "nah, I'm sick of fecking work, I'm gonna have 4 kids and get the council to put us up and pay us a fortune, I should be alright as I know a bit of Polish. Guten tag is Polish isn't it?". Not things I'd ever heard uttered in there prior to Brexit but worryingly prevalent now which was the same attitude the NF thrived in in the 1970s.

There's no such thing as a mild dose of AIDS and there's no such thing as an understandable or tolerable level of racism.
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It's just banter mate :rolleyes:
 
Where is the mixed column? Because some of that looks ridiculous for both sides.

Who are the people who think the internet is a force for ill, which goes for nearly a third of Remainers too.
 
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That poll is pretty fecking redundant.

Any individual who feels strongly about things like multiculturalism or liberalism, one way or the other, basically has their vote prescribed for them from the start.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Where is the mixed column, because some of that looks ridiculous for boths sides?

Who are the people who think the internet is a force for ill, which goes for nearly a third of Remainers too.
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The raw data is available where you pulled your table from too. In general I don't think its a very well conducted study missing some very basic things (for example a lack of 'other' option for that section). Bit of a shame it seems to be the only comprehensive study available.
 
Stanley Road said:
:lol:

I think that says more about the shitholes you drink in then it does anything else
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Nick 0208 Ldn said:
I would recommend that you find an alternative watering hole. Such has rarely the background chatter in the pubs and bars near me.
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You tried finding a decent boozer in the UK recently Stan? I had plenty of choice when I left in 2001 but when I came back I find that 90% of the decent boozers died off thanks to increased booze duty, the smoking ban and competition from badly run landlord groups that screw the landlords over and keep shite beer and Wetherspoons that undercuts everybody else and attracts a similar moronic crowd to the one I described. Sure there's traditional country hostelries and gastro pubs serving fantastic quail in lavender sauce and charging £7 a pint but to be honest the conversation in them is only improved by the readmission of the t's and h's and a more Faragesque approach to the country's ills from Tarquin and Davina. The working mens clubs at least serve a decent pint at a sensible price and many of my old mates now knock around in there whilst there is/was a community spirit to it with a good mix of old and young, black and white.

It does seem ironic though that a club where most of the discos are West Indian or Northern Soul and the crowd have always seemed fairly open and accepting now seems to echo with the sort of banter Nick Griffin would be proud of so long as none of the West Indian crowd are in earshot. But the bootboys of the NF under John Tyndall never saw the irony of dancing to ska and reggae in the 70s either as you'll remember well enough Stan and all it took was one stupid vote over an ill conceived idea and the xenophobic spin of our right wing media to throw us back in time politically almost to the point we were at when the first EU referendum came around, only this time the signs will read "No blacks, No Irish, No pakis, No dogs, No muslims, No Poles & No Romanians".
 
Bury Red said:
You tried finding a decent boozer in the UK recently Stan? I had plenty of choice when I left in 2001 but when I came back I find that 90% of the decent boozers died off thanks to increased booze duty, the smoking ban and competition from badly run landlord groups that screw the landlords over and keep shite beer and Wetherspoons that undercuts everybody else and attracts a similar moronic crowd to the one I described. Sure there's traditional country hostelries and gastro pubs serving fantastic quail in lavender sauce and charging £7 a pint but to be honest the conversation in them is only improved by the readmission of the t's and h's and a more Faragesque approach to the country's ills from Tarquin and Davina. The working mens clubs at least serve a decent pint at a sensible price and many of my old mates now knock around in there whilst there is/was a community spirit to it with a good mix of old and young, black and white.

It does seem ironic though that a club where most of the discos are West Indian or Northern Soul and the crowd have always seemed fairly open and accepting now seems to echo with the sort of banter Nick Griffin would be proud of so long as none of the West Indian crowd are in earshot. But the bootboys of the NF under John Tyndall never saw the irony of dancing to ska and reggae in the 70s either as you'll remember well enough Stan and all it took was one stupid vote over an ill conceived idea and the xenophobic spin of our right wing media to throw us back in time politically almost to the point we were at when the first EU referendum came around, only this time the signs will read "No blacks, No Irish, No pakis, No dogs, No muslims, No Poles & No Romanians".
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You're about the breweries being cnuts. Our local's landlady has had loads of problems with Samuel Smith's. They were horrendous employers, basically encouraging their publicans to stiff customers on measures and more than once uprooting her and her family to put in a different pub.
A few old school boozers survive, but they have to the fancy food to stay afloat. Wine is where they make their largest margin, rather than pints, so they're incentivised to attract that crowd, for survival in many cases.
 
@Bury Red

I think those people have always existed and always will, if you want to hear off the cuff racism just spend some time with dutch people.

The friends i have that voted to exit dont ever speak like the people you mention above, one in particular earns a six figure salary with the met police and she's an amazing person.

Working mens clubs are the worst places on earth, it's where you get drunk with old fogies for cheap before you go to the pub.

My recent trips to the uk have taken me to places like Bitton, Keynsham and Bath. Not really heard anything along the lines you mention in pubs there. you hang out with the wrong crowd mate. I remember your other pub experience in the general was also.a bit shit.
 
Jippy said:
You're about the breweries being cnuts. Our local's landlady has had loads of problems with Samuel Smith's. They were horrendous employers, basically encouraging their publicans to stiff customers on measures and more than once uprooting her and her family to put in a different pub.
A few old school boozers survive, but they have to the fancy food to stay afloat. Wine is where they make their largest margin, rather than pints, so they're incentivised to attract that crowd, for survival in many cases.
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I struggled on whether or not to use the word breweries as some are worse than others, we've got one decent Shepherd Neames pub in reasonable walking distance but it's much more along the gentrified gastro pub route and Spitfire's about the only half way drinkable beer they have. It's these agencies like Enterprise Inns that seem to have sprung up from nowhere over the last 15 years and bought up 1,000s of pubs only to fleece the landlords and customers and run the pubs into the ground before trying to sell them off again, they seem to have killed almost every decent pub we had within reasonable walking distance.

Stanley Road said:
I remember your other pub experience in the general was also.a bit shit.
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That's a bit harsh on @Wibble, Ed and @Niall

I've drunk in my fair share of dives but at least they had atmosphere and decent beer, Bath and Bitton may be better and I have to say a few of my old locals up north are still OK when I venture up there but the pubs in Tunbridge Wells that I can reasonably walk to have dropped from 9 to 3 in 15 years are with the remaining ones all being gentrified eateries.

Stanley Road said:
@Bury Red

I think those people have always existed and always will, if you want to hear off the cuff racism just spend some time with dutch people.

The friends i have that voted to exit dont ever speak like the people you mention above, one in particular earns a six figure salary with the met police and she's an amazing person.

Working mens clubs are the worst places on earth, it's where you get drunk with old fogies for cheap before you go to the pub.

My recent trips to the uk have taken me to places like Bitton, Keynsham and Bath. Not really heard anything along the lines you mention in pubs there. you hang out with the wrong crowd mate. I remember your other pub experience in the general was also.a bit shit.
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I spend a fair bit of time with Dutch people having an office in Arnhem (one of my potential boltholes if this shit does get worse) and do see a bit of it, especially the old traditions like Santa's slaves and the like which is one of those throwbacks like blacking up in morriss dancing that should have been consigned to the history books but that the Dutch still seem to relish. I'd say it's nowhere near as overt, personal or nasty as it seems to have got in the UK though, maybe people in the UK bite their tongues more around you because you're an old fogey or they assume you're a cloggy yourself :p

As for the crowd I hang around with, I may not be as lah-de-fecking-dah as some people who will only hob-nob with police commissioners or higher but I've always felt more at home mingling with the roofers, posties, bus drivers etc although the working mens club also has it's far share of businessmen and very well educated people from all walks of life with ages across the board from teens to a handful even older than you. Maybe the clubs you've hung out in were in rougher areas, there's a couple around here I wouldn't enter but ours does seem to have become a last refuge for many of those displaced from the dying pubs.

I do seriously worry though that the Brexit vote has fractured something in the UK though and that there is now a pervading sense of opinion that it's suddenly OK to voice those vicious racist and xenophobic jibes that people would not have dared utter before.
 
@Bury Red

I think the most likely scenario is that thw gene pool has become diluted where you live, perhaps a chromozone or 2 missing from the genetic make up. So while your pals are out having a quiet pint with uncle dad and discussing the dreadful influx of foreign types, i dont think its a fair reflection of everyone that voted to leave.

While my classy friend at the met may be a high flyer, her husband and his best mate are lifetime posties militant to the core, yet i have not heard them discuss immigration in a derogatory manner, ever. These people are from Peckham born and bred so you might imagine they would fit your bill.

And while londons second language seems to be an eastern block dialect, the city voted to remain. Stranger still is that people out in the booneys that rely on foreign types to pick their fruit, so long as they meet eu shape and size, voted to leave.

So at the end of the day i dont think you can pigeon hole everyone that easily.

One thing i will say is that All suburban towns of major cities are home to some of the worst scum in the uk, this has always been the case and its simply a british issue. It could be that since the vote you have started listening to them more carefully. or maybe you were just away too long.
 
sun_tzu said:
strangely many of the areas that had the highest leave votes actually received a lot of money back from the EU
Turkeys / Xmas spring to mind
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The ironic thing is after the vote, councils were busy pleading for their funding to be guaranteed. Why didn't you tell your constituents before the vote you buffoons?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
And Remainers didn't vote for sound-bites, or untruths from the establishment?

Leave the EU, and you will have no workers' rights or environmental protections. Yes i remember that one.

June 18th - IMF says Brexit would trigger UK recession

July 19th - IMF slashes UK growth forecasts after Brexit - but Britain will still outstrip Germany, France and Italy

Or...


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At no point did Remain ever mention World War 3, that was bullshit the Sun stirred up due to the Remainers pointing out that a fractured and unstable world economy could provoke wars.

For the record, given we haven't even left the EU yet we have no idea what will happen. All we know right now is that our economy has dropped and that was a consequence of the vote, also getting a new Priminister that none of us fecking voted for was yet another consequence of the vote. Personally, those are two consequences that I am unhappy with.
 
^ My Vodafone Euro Traveller and inclusive roaming applies to some non-EU countries, so i don't think there's a need to panic. Indeed, i'd far rather swap much of Europe for Canada and the US, where the daily rate is higher.


RedSky said:
At no point did Remain ever mention World War 3, that was bullshit the Sun stirred up due to the Remainers pointing out that a fractured and unstable world economy could provoke wars.

For the record, given we haven't even left the EU yet we have no idea what will happen. All we know right now is that our economy has dropped and that was a consequence of the vote, also getting a new Priminister that none of us fecking voted for was yet another consequence of the vote. Personally, those are two consequences that I am unhappy with.
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What he actaully said prompted derision from even Remain supporting media :: https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-war-nonsense-david-cameron-history-eu-debate

There were predictions of an immediate and continuing economic shock, simply as a result of the referendum. I don't think that what we've seen has measured up to such.
 
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