Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
So basically it's up to our government to do their job. Like most of the 'problems' people lay at the feet of the EU.
Well at the moment the topic is race to the bottom which is enhanced by fom.
Some people come in with absurd salary demands. I have a friend managing a small team and most of the nationals he interviewed were looking to start on 80k+. Fresh out of college or with some limited experience so these weren't rock star IT guys. He ended up hiring a Brazilian guy for 45k who's ridiculously good and he routinely admits knows more than he does. He's been pushing for a raise for him for a while. His language skills aren't great but my friend loves him. Good attitude, can be rang at 8 or 9 on the evening to get onto something and he doesn't complain about it. Hes friendly and has good social skills too (outside of language as said, which isn't great), which hes found a problem previously when hiring
I think Social Dumping is the more correct term for this effect. Even though not 100% right.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_dumping
I don't think there's a specific term about the impact of workers flooding the job market and creating a suppression on wages.
Race to the bottom is government deregulation and lowering of taxes to corporations. Which is something different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_to_the_bottom
Most expats I've worked with over the years in Dublin have been excellent (Portuguese, Brazilian's, Polish in particular), putting us to shame at times, and probably not earning as much as us either.
As a result of this and the push for multi-nationals to achieve ethnic balance I have noticed it being more difficult to get IT jobs in Dublin than before (there's still a lot around, though), when it felt like a big advantage to be Irish.
Aren't corp taxes responsible for the job boom in Ireland years ago? It certainly cost me my job at ibm in nl when it all moved to dublin.
I will read it in detail at another time, but at a glance... what it's saying is that:
a) the pressure is higher on the lower end of the economic scale
b) effect on salaries is not that big
However, I want to check if that's comparing markets across different nations with different levels of migration. Like I said, some countries have experienced a boom in salaries in specific high-demand sectors like mine. But that same salary boom has not been evident in the UK (while demand is very strong) and has led to wage disparities between different countries. It'd be interesting to see if that's explained at all and if that is attributed to something else other than migration. Which is possible, of course.
Corp taxes are why we're one of the richest countries in Europe instead of one of the poorest now.
I asked them if that was what they really thought the referendum was all about and their usual response was well if it sorts out the foreigners they're all for it.
That's why I opted for remain because leaving didn't make sense and at the time the pro Brexit rhetoric was all about the £350m to the NHS and curbing the 'foreigners', which as far as I could see was all bullshit. I couldn't believe....and still can't believe that the country made such a major decision without any substantiated fact, corroboratory evidence or forward planning. I think people would have been more accepting of the vote leave decision if it had been more of an informed choice.
What do you attribute to the boom there then, just a change of scenery for companies?
Tbh misleading people in the manner many of your politicians did should be criminalised imo. Borderline traitorous imo.
Pretty sure hes agreeing with you. I think any other advantages Ireland offered only became apparent after they moved here for the corp taxes savings.
...corp taxes.
We're not gonna agree on that. A policy/law affecting demographics and migration is not the same as controlling them. You have no control over how many come in, what sectors they gonna be working in and what the impact will be on the job or housing market, ultimately. Which is generally what people refer to by controlling immigration.
It's free immigration with some basic rules. That's probably the best I can describe it.
Yeah just looked it up, half that of nl.
Yep, its unreasonably low. Were 5% lower than the next lowest. Were not even applying our fairly pitiful rates to all businesses which is what that apple thing was about.
Well, they aren't. There's all sorts of Europeans working in the catering industry, I certainly don't see a prominence of Eastern Europeans, let alone an exclusivity. In fact I see more Southern Europeans than Eastern Europeans in all my local places in London. Which is interesting considering the number of migrants from Eastern Europe are many more than those Southern Europe by official numbers.
Eastern Europeans seem to dominate the construction work sector though in terms of foreign workers. Plenty of Brits working in construction too, since it pays much better than catering though it's arguably a lot harder work.
I'm not sure what the real question is though. Why are foreigners employed in the catering industry in the UK? Or why is not happening in Spain?
Who cares. Rollin' in the dollah. Multi-nationals are great.
That's a really good point!
Well I'm pretty sure it was just another version of 'why are those foreigners taking over our jobs'. And it's exactly this irrational sentiment being used until infinity that has killed the more valid discussions.
Based on casual observation, I am fairly sure there are foreigners in the catering industry in Spain but they are from LatAm and therefore less obviously “foreigners”, at least to another foreigner. Plus, as mentioned above, Spaniards can’t be as picky as Brits about doung low paid work with anti-social hours due to the much weaker jobs market.
Cosnervative rebels target Theresa May's Brexit plan
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44796517
Spelling standards at the BBC are on the decline.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44796517
Spelling standards at the BBC are on the decline.
Corporation tax makes no sense to me anyway.
Firstly the biggest corporations find ways to legally avoid paying it, gaining an advantage over smaller companies that can’t afford the buy-in cost for complex schemes involving tax havens and government concessions.
Secondly, increased net profits for firms means more money to invest into expansion, r&d, talent retention (salaries), dividends. So ultimately the money returns to the humans and that’s the point when it makes sense for me to tax it.
Firstly the biggest corporations find ways to legally avoid paying it, gaining an advantage over smaller companies that can’t afford the buy-in cost for complex schemes involving tax havens and government concessions.
Secondly, increased net profits for firms means more money to invest into expansion, r&d, talent retention (salaries), dividends. So ultimately the money returns to the humans and that’s the point when it makes sense for me to tax it.
Nope, it'll just be paid to the shareholders
Not guaranteed in the slightest. But in any case, dividends are taxed. So the govt still make their money and the shareholders are happy. Win-win.
Or the shareholders bury their returns off shore... 
I will never be tired of saying this:
If a person that is not native in your language (might not even speak it) with no family/friends networking, with bureaucratic burdens (being in EU does not allow you only to work in another country, there are prerequisites for all), not knowing the environment, culture etc... IF that person steal your job (and girlfriend/wife, just I heard that complain too half joke half true) is that you don't fecking deserve it. And no, is not only about the salary (specially girlfriend/wife). There are minimum wages and no, the salaries would not increase that much and if they would, so the cost of the services/products that would reflect that increase that will put you at square 0
If a person that is not native in your language (might not even speak it) with no family/friends networking, with bureaucratic burdens (being in EU does not allow you only to work in another country, there are prerequisites for all), not knowing the environment, culture etc... IF that person steal your job (and girlfriend/wife, just I heard that complain too half joke half true) is that you don't fecking deserve it. And no, is not only about the salary (specially girlfriend/wife). There are minimum wages and no, the salaries would not increase that much and if they would, so the cost of the services/products that would reflect that increase that will put you at square 0
I disagree, i think trickle down economics have been exposed as a total sham for a while.
Tell that to the Irish, yeah? Seems to work a treat for them. From one of the poorest to one of the richest in Europe thanks to basically not asking businesses to pay corporation tax.
Don’t want to derail the thread further though. This is about Brexit. Happy to discuss this at length in another thread
Well at least the Government can't exploit the high of winning a World Cup.
I wish the people cared and analysed Brexit as much as we did the England football team.
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:62011CJ0300&from=EN
Just because we don't do it doesn't mean we can't.
It's just the cost of doing it would outstrip the benefits massively.
Why do you think it'll change afterwards when we've got the same politicians in charge? They all know the advantages of allowing people in, they're not suddenly going to stop exploiting them.
You're linking me a case of someone forbidden entry into the UK on the grounds of public safety because he was a French - Algerian on a flight from Algeria and he had suspected terrorist links.
What is the point you are trying to make again?
643 pages suggests people do. But in subjects of politics people can be a bit dogmatic, or entrenched in their views, and unlikely to yield to reason. So there's that
You might not get tired of saying it and I won't get tired of calling it one of the most laughable arguments ever in the history of argumentation.
Our riches have come at great expense to the rest of Europe. And i dont think the working class, middle class or Government services are doing so well as to be celebrating that much. Things have improved recently and its benefited Ireland a great deal, can't argue with you there. I don't think i'm that keen on debating it really. I get your position and I'm not that attached to my own really. I wouldn't put all our success down to corporation tax rates, being EU members is at least as relevant.
Come on. Surely you are being obtuse now?
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Absolutely. Part of the reason why I'm also pro-European and a remainer. EU membership has some pros and cons, but in my simple head the pros surpass the cons. The EU has many issues that still needs to resolve though, with or without the UK.
Having a central currency but with different economies of different gears and no centralised fiscal policy is, in the long term, a recipe for disaster. The inability for certain countries to devalue the currency by printing money (like the UK did) in the face of financial crises, nearly sunk the Med region. Interests among members conflict and they appear more competitors than partners at times.
Migration is another big problem. Both the legal and the illegal kind. A lot of people don't generally like the racial/ethnic profile of their country changing too fast. Change is inevitable, but the faster the rate of change the more people will kick back. Especially if there are financial crises when migrants will get inevitably scapegoated for it.
Call it xenophobia, racism, bigotry, or lack of education if you want... it's still a factor you can't ignore. It's a reality. We don't live in a Utopia. If we did Communism might have worked. Currently Schengen is under threat, borders are shutting across Europe and right-wing parties are gaining massive ground everywhere. We can keep harping on about how migration is beneficial all the way till the EU collapses and it won't matter one jot.