That's not the point. You keep making some basic mistakes like saying that Germany and the UK are the only net contributors etc. I wouldn't expect that from someone whose been involved in the EU. There again, you might not have been in the political side of things which in that case, that's fair enough. When I was in the ministry I didn't expect the gardener there to know what's the ministry targets were either.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That's not the point. You keep making some basic mistakes like saying that Germany and the UK are the only net contributors etc. I wouldn't expect that from someone whose been involved in the EU. There again, you might not have been in the political side of things which in that case, that's fair enough. When I was in the ministry I didn't expect the gardener there to know what's the ministry targets were either.
With all due respect, why are you bothering? Does this look like a conversation where the other person is interested in having an adult conversation backed up by facts?
Indeed, the oldest person in here is behaving like the biggest child.
Well we all know UKIP is the Nazionalist wing of the Tory party,and I knew where you were heading.
Shouldn't he announce that he is no longer a UKIP MEP and go independent.
Imagine if Farage became PM, Boris Johnson would win Diplomat of the Year.
This closeness towards USA makes more sense as only Trump would consider dealing with the UK with Farage as leader. The UK would truly be on it's own, Hear North Korea are looking for trade partners.
Bizarrely I think you actually believe all this nonsense.
Just got in from my bike ride - looks as if deadlock in the negotiations, tick tock ,tick tock, pound takes another pummeling
Either he is WUM or it was obvious he's a Farage disciple from the beginning.
You can always wave the white flag and withdraw !
Oooh, Spanner, that was nasty, now stop stamping your feet and show me some real facts, not opinions, not bullshit, just facts, for example;
Britain is not in the euro-zone, this means it is in the minority of countries within the EU 28 members
Lets debate this fact and its possible bearing on Britain's future if it were to stay in the EU, what positives or negatives can be drawn from this fact?
This fact is close to irrelevant. It's not a big deal and probably never will, ironically France is one of the countries with an exemption(We have the Euro and the Franc Pacifique) and I don't think that we intend to change that any time soon if ever.
What do you mean?
Sticking with the Sterling has always been a big positive for the UK within the EU. What bearing would it have on their future if they were to stay, exactly?
How close to irrelevant and why is it irrelevant when majority decisions in the EU affecting currency values will be to support the euro not the pound?
All decisions that affect the major currencies Euro/Dollar/Pound Sterling reverberate world wide.
So naturally the euro zone countries are going to support actions taken by the EU that protect or promote the value of the Euro (as you would expect), whether it helps or hinders the value of Sterling, Britain being in the minority we can doing nothing, except sit on our hands and hope the crumbs that fall, fall our way!
Can you explain why that is the case?
In particular why there was a run on Sterling when Norman Lamont tried to gets us into the ERM (exchange rate mechanism -this was the one that was supposed to link us and then run us alongside the euro and it was suppose to be Britain's first step, before going into the euro 'all in'?
What I mean - See earlier reply to JPRouve where I've tried to flesh out what I mean
It's totally irrelevant.
As for the second part, I don't understand your point. Why would the UK directly influence the policy of a currency that isn't his? You are not in the minority, you are out of it and can totally control your own currency.
Edit: I think that I just don't understand your point. Initially I thought that you were worried about the EU forcing you to take the Euro but it seems that what you are complaining about is the fact that not having the common currency doesn't give you the benefits of having the common currency, which is confusing.
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Apparently the Uk want to change its currency to the US Dollar to cosy up with Trump in the NAFTA agreement
Thank you, its 'totally' irrelevant - now tell me why?
Spanner seems to think it benefits Britain having the pound sterling, whilst still in the EU, but he hasn't told me why yet?
However you say its irrelevant? Again why is it irrelevant, tell me why then was there a run (the worst run ever) on the Pound the moment Britain went anywhere near linking the Euro to Sterling, please note, these are not opinions, not bullshit, this actually happened its a fact, not fake news.
Now lets see you up your game and tell my why!
What's there to explain here? The past ten years leading up to Brexit have shown why the UK keeping the Sterling was a great idea, given the crash of the Euro.
You're the one asking the question, why don't you answer it?
Don't twist my words. You're just trying to be clever now by drawing me into a random argument. Why are you even bringing up the Sterling?
you're either a WUM or an idiot, I hope it's the former.
Apparently the Uk want to change its currency to the US Dollar to cosy up with Trump in the NAFTA agreement
Actually that's nothing new Paul, there has always been a small majority (amongst rampant Tories) who have argued for this and yes it will come to the fore again now because of Brexit.
However the same constraints/requirements apply to that solution, as did the give up Sterling for the Euro, you may have been around just long enough to know why, so lets hear it?
I will eventually, you've had me on the rack, now its your turn, support your statement with 'facts' Spanner, or retire gracefully from the field, it was an honour to have crossed swords with you!
You don't have me on the rack. You asked a question out of the blue that had nothing to do with anything that I said. I never said anything as a "fact".
Enough of your "eventually" bollocks, just answer the question that you posed if you want a response to it.
You're probably not as stupid as you act, though, I'll give you that, as we both know there's very little hard evidence out there to support either side of the Sterling vs Euro argument, because it's pretty much impossible to say whether it's a good or bad thing outright, you need to more-so look at the way things have gone for the UK under the Sterling and form an opinion, but you knew that didn't you, which is why you asked the question that you won't answer yourself, which further leads me to believe that you're just a sad WUM.
it wasn't an honour to cross swords with you by the way, it was more so like crossing a steaming pile of turds with you, maybe. Like when you have to shut down your brain so you can talk to children who ask silly questions like "d'ya tink unicorns are in the starz?"
Because I was taking up your suggestion to discuss facts, not opinion, not bullshit, 'facts'.
See my report #18597 posted at 11.21 today
This was my fact. Britain in retaining the pound sterling is in the minority of countries within the EU, the majority being in the euro-zone
Then followed up with a question, what are the positives and negatives of this situation if Britain stayed in the EU?
if you have given up on this one, or just tired of it, then if you want, then you state a 'fact' relevant to Britain's continued membership or otherwise of the EU and we can debate it, but we have to start with a 'fact' one we can both agree on, not your opinion, or my opinion, these we can advance afterwards, if you wish?
What the feck sort of fact is that?Wow, Britain is in the minority of EU countries in that it keeps the sterling, who fecking knew? That is some absolute Grade A research there, I mean my god, it must have taken them ages to figure out that one.
Here, I have a fact for you.
There are ~65.6m people in the UK
What are the benefits and/or disadvantages to those people eating pizza to the economy?
Please answer cause I gave you a fact so like, you have to give me facts on 65.6m people eating pizza and its benefits to an economy now.
I don't see the relevancy to the subject unless I missed something. As for explaining the decisions of an highly speculative market that wouldn't be clever but I can try and say that linking the Sterling with the Euro would most likely make the Sterling less relevant at least I imagine that some investors would anticipate something like that which means that said investors are likely to sell their Sterlings and replace them with a money that they deemed better priced(Euro, Yen or Dollar).
I was joking actually.
However, regarding the Euro/Sterling debate - we all know currencies fluctuate - The UK have never been obliged to accept the Euro and had done quite well by staying out of the Euro and indeed recovered quicker from the last recession than the EUZ.
Imo the strength of a currency is the strength of the country.
This raises several points - how is the UK a second class beneficiary because they're not in the Euro, clearly untrue and everyone was bragging how well the UK economy was doing until 2015.
When the pound collapsed because the Uk made an economic mistake last year, Brexiters claim that the pound was overvalued and are happy to see it slide, if it had been in the Euro it wouldn't have dropped so much.
Now if the Uk leaves the EU off a cliff edge, the pound will really nosedive, effectively turning a currency that not so long ago was the leading currency reserve into a third rate currency.
The Uk have this uncanny ability to keep shooting itself in the foot, blaming everyone else but cosying up to the country who has in reality been the cause of their downfall from a once leading world power.
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One that relates to the subject of Britain in the EU!
No, that's the beauty of facts Spanner, they are clear and unequivocal, not made up, or tinge with some ones' opinion, but everyone knows them.
The issue becomes important when the facts get in the way of some one's opinion and are jettisoned, as you are prone to do, along with @devilish; @Kentonio; @Nogbadthebad ; @JPRouve; @afrocentricity: @Regulus Arcturus Black: @NinjaFletch and a few others do. Where as @Paul the Wolf
is very careful, steers around or over facts but nevertheless gets his argument across without too much bile and name calling.
I can be guilty of that as well, so will be first to add my 'mea culpa'..anyone else?
When did I jettisoned your opinion?
I've barely spoken to you about Brexit you utter loon.
In fact I'm pretty sure the only time I've ever quoted you is to call you out for calling someone a gobshite, so it's a particularly odd tagging.
you're missing my point, though, your "fact" is irrelevant, it's just a meanjingless fact, much like my example before. it's totally irrelevant to any discussion here. you can't just state a fact and go "OK NOW TELL ME WHY THIS IS GOOD OR BAD PLEASE" with zero context or debate from your end. all you were doing was trying to provoke people as some weird, petty payback for you being proven to be talking nonsense with your "facts" yesterday.
Why am I being tagged into this nonsense?
Wow Paul thought you were getting close there for a moment!
Looking, back briefly, Britain's move to join the ERM to bring it inline with the euro, was catastrophic, speculators ran riot, we were forced to back off. Ultimately with some negotiated opt outs, and rebate, then retaining the pound was to our advantage during the crash and just after.
However looking to the future, as the focus of the EU is to ever greater integration, any country with a major currency other than the euro, will suffer, if they are inside the EU.
The three major world currencies are the Dollar/Sterling/Euro if Britain, inside the EU, insists on retaining the pound Sterling against the background of ever greater integration of the EU it will suffer because all major decisions within the EU that affect currency rates will, naturally enough, be taken on the basis of what suits the Euro, not the pound Sterling.
This is the last stop for the EU integration bus, Germany and France combined will see to that. We either get on the bus properly, for the full ride, jettison our opt outs, return our rebate, dump the Pound Sterling and become full fare-paying passengers... or we get off the bus. Britain has decide albeit by a small margin, to get off the bus... while its still can!
I Believe what he's trying to say is that the countries in the Eurozone vote and base EU policy on whether or not the policy will strengthen the Eurozone, regardless of what it might do to the Danish Krona, Swedish Krona, British Pound.
Oh, and the UK is powerless to do anything about it.
I mean, it's all bollocks obviously, and is once again an example of a Brexiter portraying the UK as some unfortunate kid at school who has no choice but to listen to his teachers, rather than a member of the EU big 4 and prominent in all decision making within the EU.
Oh, and the UK is powerless to do anything about it.
I mean, it's all bollocks obviously, and is once again an example of a Brexiter portraying the UK as some unfortunate kid at school who has no choice but to listen to his teachers, rather than a member of the EU big 4 and prominent in all decision making within the EU.
But that's what the countries you mentioned do, without the Eurozone having a say. They didn't join the Eurozone because they wanted to have that power.
I was just letting you go first!
The context was ever closer integration in the EU, the debate was how will Britain benefit or suffer in an ever more integrated EU if it still retains a major currency, which is not the currency of the new state?
Discuss please!
I know.
But he means EU policy, rather than Eurozone policy. At least I think.
What EU policy he means that could hugely strengthen the Eurozone whilst simultaneously weakening the eight countries that don't adopt the Euro I have no idea. And that somehow these countries would be powerless is a recurring theme for Brexiters, they genuinely believe the UK has no say in EU policy as it stands.
I don't know. I haven't looked into it. I can't read the future. I didn't bring it up or try to get involved in a discussion about it. You tried to drag me into one.
I can't post facts about something to which there are zero facts. You didn't ask for me to discuss, you asked for me to post "facts", how can I post facts about something which is in the future and which is basically all speculative?
Are you willing to post facts about it to support your side of the argument?
This is simply untrue, the UK has never had to adopt the Euro - if it decides to reapply to the EU it will. It has not suffered because it is not in the Eurozone.
Sorry but this is a weak excuse to justify the referendum result .
The Pound remaining as one of the three major currencies is highly debatable with a cliff edge departure so there you go again - the UK shooting itself in the foot again.
Look back to the 50s and 60s and see what happened to the pound then.
The USD and the Euro are by far the major world currencies, the pound has been competing with the Yen for quite some time for 3rd and then the CAD and AUD have emerged plus the Chinese Yuan. The Uk seems determined to drop down the ladder, it has to stop living in the past.
You've singularly failed to present me with a single 'fact' that actually supports your argument or which cannot be easily refuted within minutes.
Then again I'm fairly sure you're just trolling everyone anyway, so whatever gives you your kicks.
In other news Liam Fox, and Liam Fox alone, is the new Board of Trade
where have I insulted you? I was wondering what was your role in the EU. For a moment I also got confused if it was you who worked in the EU or the outsider. You can forgive my mistake since The latter seem far more knowledgeable about it then you
Exactly that is my point we would no longer be one of the big 4, if we remain inside the EU and retain Sterling as our currency, can you imagine the jollification around the EU when Mrs Merkel and Macron in particular have to tell their respective populations, "sorry folks we cannot do x, y or z because Britain objects that such actions will devalue the pound, so we are not taking this action and instead its the Euro that's being devalued, so be careful where you choose to take your holidays?
Yes, all other things being equal, Britain will take a hit on Sterling for the time being, but its true level will be found, so that when we are out we are competing from a solid base. (Hence why there is talk of a ten year recession!)
Its quite possible for a time the almighty dollar will (despite Trump's unpopularity) soar, the Euro will move into second place (almost there now) in terms of world currencies and the pound Sterling will follow up behind them, may even drop out of the top three! There will then be in parts of the political establishment an almighty row about tying the Pound to the Dollar (as Paul indicated earlier). Incidentally its at this point (should we reach it) Nigel may make a return to frontline politics, if the row cannot be sorted then there could be an tremendous upheaval in the political establishment in Britain.
In the EU, Germany and France will take a stranglehold on the future of the EU, the Franco/German axis rekindled in Europe
NB The above is all my opinion, its not fact, I don't claim it to be fact, I don't expect anyone to take as fact, if you want to reply, then please don't just tell me its shite, bollocks or whatever, put a counter opinion, lets discuss!
Edit: What am I even doing here, I've just realised that I'm an absolute fool for even spending time in this thread again.
Just fecking read man: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2014/545697/EPRS_ATA(2014)545697_REV1_EN.pdf
So unless we'd all of a sudden have a massive decrease in population, you're talking absolute garbage again.
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