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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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Throughout this thread I'm afraid you've rarely come across as anything other than unpleasantly arrogant, narrow minded and condescending. A walking and sneering distillation of much that is wrong within the remain camp that most of us here are part of. Your post above is a perfect example but I doubt your frightening lack of self awareness will ever allow you to recognise just how toxic your views of other people can be.

Not how I see it. I see someone who has been passionate about his country making a massive mistake, someone who lives in the EU and can see the benefits. I see him continuing to make his points consistently despite others niggling and being narky with him
 
Not sure what that has to do with my observations on Paul? I voted remain but have much sympathy for the many who have voted leave and did so in good faith believing that it would benefit them. Paul largely posts with utter contempt for leave voters branding them to a man as thick, racist xenophobes who deserve what’s coming to them because they’re stupid. There’s a leave voter equivalent of course. For me the lasting legacy of this referendum, whatever happens, is that this clear contempt that hardliners on either side have for each other has exposed an enormous divide in this country that will take at least a generation to bridge if at all.

What is this hysterical nonsense? How on earth will brexit "destroy" anyone's chances of "ever living or working abroad"? A country reduced to a pile of rubble and people eating rats?

Get a grip man you sound positively rabid.

What a ridiculous question. And where do you get the confident prediction of £100bn + from? Everything I've seen quotes a range of scenarios but nothing close to that figure.

A sample of replies to other Remain posters.

Just as well you're not holier than thou.
 
A sample of replies to other Remain posters.
Just as well you're not holier than thou.

They're not particularly damning quotes to be honest Paul. Try this one:

Negotiations have progressed well. May has agreed to carry on wearing the gimp mask, they have mutually agreed that a safe word isn't needed as the UK will take whatever the EU gives but the UK have been granted a major concession by the EU agreeing to use lube occasionaly.

Manages to be unfunny, unclever and unpleasant all at the same time. Come on Wibble, you're better than that, I know you are.
 
They're not particularly damning quotes to be honest Paul. .

How is that not exactly what he is accusing me of?
I had a long session with the "believing " poster who lied, misquoted , insulted the whole time but that's fine, you even agreed with him at some point.
Most people ignored him, but I challenged him full on. People didn't like it but I wasn't going to let a stream of lies go unchallenged

What is this, be nice to brexiters week
 
Oh dear what a pathetic argument. If I take this at face value then a result 51 to 49 in favour of remaining would have been invalid. Etc, Etc. Only when one side or the other achieved 66.67% of the votes could we have said that the vote to leave or remain would have been legitimate. Now what (in attempting to achieve that outcome) would that have done to the cause of democracy. And which side would ever have achieved it?

It's not exactly difficult to understand (although it appears you did anyway given that you wrote off the argument of an extremely intelligent scientist as 'pathetic'). If we enact major social and political change on the basis of a 51% majority, then what exactly happens next week when it swings back to 51% in the other direction? Do we enact further major social and political change? Do we do it again the following week if it swings back again?

The reason most sensible countries insist on 60-65% majorities in referendum is because they are more likely to represent a solid desire and not just a potentially temporary swing.
 
Insulting another member
A sample of replies to other Remain posters.

Just as well you're not holier than thou.

You've got 1600 posts on this thread approx half of which are derogatory towards those who don't share your views. And like most bullies you really get your hackles up when challenged. As for any claims that you merely care passionately about your country they obviously don't extend to those who voted leave - you even feel it necessary to denigrate them on your profile page.

Like I said. A thoroughly unpleasant man without any insight into the position of others.
 
They're not particularly damning quotes to be honest Paul. Try this one:



Manages to be unfunny, unclever and unpleasant all at the same time. Come on Wibble, you're better than that, I know you are.

Black humor sourced from despair. Brexit is the worst think to happen to the UK since WW2 and to make it worse it is self inflicted.
 
You've got 1600 posts on this thread approx half of which are derogatory towards those who don't share your views. And like most bullies you really get your hackles up when challenged. As for any claims that you merely care passionately about your country they obviously don't extend to those who voted leave - you even feel it necessary to denigrate them on your profile page.

Like I said. A thoroughly unpleasant man without any insight into the position of others.

Still on your holier than thou, St Remain quest, think you know it all, think you know what I'm like, you don't denigrate Brexiters, no, just Remainers, are you an apologist for leave voters. Always blame someone else, it's always someone else's fault.
If you don't understand what you're voting for, don't vote.
 
Not sure what that has to do with my observations on Paul? I voted remain but have much sympathy for the many who have voted leave and did so in good faith believing that it would benefit them. Paul largely posts with utter contempt for leave voters branding them to a man as thick, racist xenophobes who deserve what’s coming to them because they’re stupid. There’s a leave voter equivalent of course. For me the lasting legacy of this referendum, whatever happens, is that this clear contempt that hardliners on either side have for each other has exposed an enormous divide in this country that will take at least a generation to bridge if at all.

I really dont see what you are seeing with Paul. @Wibble appears to be in the same boat. There is an edge to what he says but I think you are over reacting. Tbh people who vote out of fear and mostly ignorance thus affecting my life make me go on edge too.
 
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How is that not exactly what he is accusing me of?
I had a long session with the "believing " poster who lied, misquoted , insulted the whole time but that's fine, you even agreed with him at some point.
Most people ignored him, but I challenged him full on. People didn't like it but I wasn't going to let a stream of lies go unchallenged

What is this, be nice to brexiters week

If I thought one of his points was right then I would agree. Many of yours are too, and I'm happy to say so. I have this weird thing where I try and assess the merits of both sides of an argument and then weigh the balance of them. Doesn't fit in well with the Caf unfortunately, but it's fairly normal in real life.
 
If I thought one of his points was right then I would agree. Many of yours are too, and I'm happy to say so. I have this weird thing where I try and assess the merits of both sides of an argument and then weigh the balance of them. Doesn't fit in well with the Caf unfortunately, but it's fairly normal in real life.

Crikey. Where's that utopia.
 
Whatever happened to the ‘criticise the post not the poster’ text you’d see before making a post?
 
If I thought one of his points was right then I would agree. Many of yours are too, and I'm happy to say so. I have this weird thing where I try and assess the merits of both sides of an argument and then weigh the balance of them. Doesn't fit in well with the Caf unfortunately, but it's fairly normal in real life.

You did say he made mincemeat out of me on a particular point which I was halfway through discussing and finally disproved, anyway, it doesn't matter, I agree with the rest of what you said which has been rather the point I've been making all along. You should assess both sides of an argument but do it in an informed way. If someone disagrees for a valid reason , fine, have no problem at all. But there has to be a valid reason, there's my problem.
 
You did say he made mincemeat out of me on a particular point which I was halfway through discussing and finally disproved, anyway, it doesn't matter, I agree with the rest of what you said which has been rather the point I've been making all along. You should assess both sides of an argument but do it in an informed way. If someone disagrees for a valid reason , fine, have no problem at all. But there has to be a valid reason, there's my problem.

Yeah, that was deliberately provocative I admit. In defence the guy was hugely outnumbered in that discussion, and he deserved a bit of recognition for his efforts, which may or may not have been disproved :)
 
Yeah, that was deliberately provocative I admit. In defence the guy was hugely outnumbered in that discussion, and he deserved a bit of recognition for his efforts, which may or may not have been disproved :)

He wasn't hugely outnumbered, it started with me who explained why the EU and the commission weren't un-democratic and then Paul had the same conversation. We didn't even do it at the same time.
 
People need to remember to stay civil in this thread and indeed the wider forum. Appreciate it’s divisive but play nice
 
Yeah, that was deliberately provocative I admit. In defence the guy was hugely outnumbered in that discussion, and he deserved a bit of recognition for his efforts, which may or may not have been disproved :)
Has he given up in this thread now? Not seen him for a bit- was curious about his reaction to the progress.
 
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It's not exactly difficult to understand (although it appears you did anyway given that you wrote off the argument of an extremely intelligent scientist as 'pathetic'). If we enact major social and political change on the basis of a 51% majority, then what exactly happens next week when it swings back to 51% in the other direction? Do we enact further major social and political change? Do we do it again the following week if it swings back again?

The reason most sensible countries insist on 60-65% majorities in referendum is because they are more likely to represent a solid desire and not just a potentially temporary swing.

Also why our first past the post voting system is shit, in effect a one party dictatorship followed by another
 
Oh dear. I have been reported and duly reprimanded for 'insulting another member' in this thread. How odd that insults can be thrown around with impunity to anyone and everyone just so long as the recipient does not post in the thread. Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice. Seems like over-reacting is pretty normal for both sides.
 
If I thought one of his points was right then I would agree. Many of yours are too, and I'm happy to say so. I have this weird thing where I try and assess the merits of both sides of an argument and then weigh the balance of them. Doesn't fit in well with the Caf unfortunately, but it's fairly normal in real life.

The trouble with assessing merit of both sides is that we are way past that point. Talking the benefits of Brexit are a bit like saying that you are glad that you had both arms amputated because it has cured you of biting your nails. It is just the degree of disaster that it is going to be, economically but even more socially.

We repeatedly begged to get in an now have left of a whim. The world is now laughing at us for doing something even more stupid than voting Trump in. Here in Australia the reaction is one incredulity. The whole world is battling to get into trade agreements with important players like the US, China and the EU and the UK is fighting to get out or at least pay more for less and with no say about the future.
 


Lack of self awareness is a real problem in today’s world.

“I’m not racist but where’s all the fecking white people!?”

Then again, people like this need to be allowed into a discussion. There’s a real point they’re trying to make underneath it all (I hope). Whether it’s people not integrating and a lot of folks speaking in different languages around him - these are legit issues that even liberals can understand. Not going to get far with “too many brown faces” though.

Also not sure what Brexit is going to do for him. Movement from India and Pakistan isn’t going to be altered from it.
 
Lack of self awareness is a real problem in today’s world.

“I’m not racist but where’s all the fecking white people!?”

Then again, people like this need to be allowed into a discussion. There’s a real point they’re trying to make underneath it all (I hope). Whether it’s people not integrating and a lot of folks speaking in different languages around him - these are legit issues that even liberals can understand. Not going to get far with “too many brown faces” though.

Also not sure what Brexit is going to do for him. Movement from India and Pakistan isn’t going to be altered from it.
How does this suggest a lack of integration?
I am an immigrant into this country and I think I am fully assimilated.
I speak to and have more White/Caucasian freiends than I do Black/Brown.
However, If I see another Youruba man on the street, I am likely to communicate with that person In Youruba.
 
How does this suggest a lack of integration?
I am an immigrant into this country and I think I am fully assimilated.
I speak to and have more White/Caucasian freiends than I do Black/Brown.
However, If I see another Youruba man on the street, I am likely to communicate with that person In Youruba.

It's baffling isn't it? As if two english men in Russia were going to speak russian when they are together. The people that have never immigrated in culturally different countries don't understand that you can keep your own identity and still add what I would call "local layers".
 
It's baffling isn't it? As if two english men in Russia were going to speak russian when they are together. The people that have never immigrated in culturally different countries don't understand that you can keep your own identity and still add what I would call "local layers".
It's all about the effort you put in though. You can just tell by listening to Steve from Harrow that he knows exactly where he should raise his voice in every sentence to make himself fluent in Spanish once his holiday conversations exceeed "una cerveza".
 
How does this suggest a lack of integration?
I am an immigrant into this country and I think I am fully assimilated.
I speak to and have more White/Caucasian freiends than I do Black/Brown.
However, If I see another Youruba man on the street, I am likely to communicate with that person In Youruba.
Ah but you’re not paranoid about what’s going on around you. That’s the difference. Like it or not, if you want to fix issues like this, people like this need to be calmed down.

The argument you just made is the one that these people need to be told.
 
Funny thing is a hard brexit would probably result in more non-EU migration.
The worrying thing is I'm sure many like this prat would far rather all their immigrants were immediately recognizable by the colour of their skin. Most racists know how to bite their tongue when they see a foreigner but love nothing more than to share their bigotry in a whisper with the nearest white face, it must terrify them to never be sure that person is not going to reveal they are Polish or Dutch.

The missus has a few dozen such encounters every week from the shop she works in where people who are perfectly behaved when the young Ghanaian lass is working with her on a Thursday are openly racist on a Friday or Saturday when her assistant is white. She had one yesterday who she had previously thought was OK who suddenly launched into a diatribe about the 'kin Romanians taking all the jobs and getting free houses. My wife's ability to ignore the idiot in the room (honed through years living with me probably) obviously failed her slightly as her face must have betrayed her distaste causing the bigot to stop mid rant and say "Oh God, you're not Romanian are you".
 
Oh come on @Bury Red , you didn't marry a romanian, did you? They are stealing the men now!
 
:lol:

Did have a dabble with one in my younger days but no, Mrs Bury is 100% anglo saxon born and raised not 5 miles from the shop she presently works in so for some reason the racists assume they are on safe ground with her. How she's not decked someone yet is a miracle.
 
Lack of self awareness is a real problem in today’s world.

“I’m not racist but where’s all the fecking white people!?”

Then again, people like this need to be allowed into a discussion. There’s a real point they’re trying to make underneath it all (I hope). Whether it’s people not integrating and a lot of folks speaking in different languages around him - these are legit issues that even liberals can understand. Not going to get far with “too many brown faces” though.

Add ignorance and fear to a lack of self awareness. Ignorance from a society structured where people of different ethnic backgrounds don't interact enough to get to know and understand each other. And fear as this caller demonstrates when he talks about losing identity. What he's talking about is the fear he feels re the loss of his identity which is white, in the majority, and therefore holding the power. This is why you get white nationalists matching chanting "You will not replace us" in places like Charlottesville or the UK equivalent shouting "No surrender"

As O'Brien does with the guy in the call the Steve's of this world have got to be engaged with and their concerns discussed. And there needs to be more investment in local community initiatives that focus on educational programs and events that bring people into contact with each other and learn about each other. The onus is then on those different racial and ethnic groups to participate. It's not easy though. I'm involved in a food based initiative in a multicultural city in the Midlands that seeks to bring people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds to sit down and eat together and there is real resistance to it and not particularly from the white folk. There are cultural divides at play that are sometimes very difficult to bridge.
 
The trouble with assessing merit of both sides is that we are way past that point. Talking the benefits of Brexit are a bit like saying that you are glad that you had both arms amputated because it has cured you of biting your nails. It is just the degree of disaster that it is going to be, economically but even more socially.

We repeatedly begged to get in an now have left of a whim. The world is now laughing at us for doing something even more stupid than voting Trump in. Here in Australia the reaction is one incredulity. The whole world is battling to get into trade agreements with important players like the US, China and the EU and the UK is fighting to get out or at least pay more for less and with no say about the future.

What we are actually past is the referendum. If you have an interest in the future it's just as important to assess arguments and possibilities now as it always is.

I think it was a bad idea with a bad result and we'll be poorer for it, but that doesn't mean I've been traumatised, as many seem to have been, or turned into Private Frazer.
 
Add ignorance and fear to a lack of self awareness. Ignorance from a society structured where people of different ethnic backgrounds don't interact enough to get to know and understand each other. And fear as this caller demonstrates when he talks about losing identity. What he's talking about is the fear he feels re the loss of his identity which is white, in the majority, and therefore holding the power. This is why you get white nationalists matching chanting "You will not replace us" in places like Charlottesville or the UK equivalent shouting "No surrender"

As O'Brien does with the guy in the call the Steve's of this world have got to be engaged with and their concerns discussed. And there needs to be more investment in local community initiatives that focus on educational programs and events that bring people into contact with each other and learn about each other. The onus is then on those different racial and ethnic groups to participate. It's not easy though. I'm involved in a food based initiative in a multicultural city in the Midlands that seeks to bring people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds to sit down and eat together and there is real resistance to it and not particularly from the white folk. There are cultural divides at play that are sometimes very difficult to bridge.
It's alway baffled me trying to work out what exactly we are losing as a culture. Maybe it is just the island mentality.
God knows how you integrate some communities if neither side has any interest in doing so.
Maybe an alien invasion could work.
 
It's alway baffled me trying to work out what exactly we are losing as a culture

I guess it depends what you mean as "we". You or I might see our culture as benefiting from immigration. Steve from Harlow clearly perceives his culture as under threat.

And this thread has mistakenly largely painted the Brexit vote as almost wholly a protest vote confined to the old and the white working class but it's not as simple as that. There was a big British Asian vote for Brexit in some areas which doesn't tie into that narrative and highlights a diversity within the leave vote that gets overlooked and is therefore not understood.