Not how I see it. I see someone who has been passionate about his country making a massive mistake, someone who lives in the EU and can see the benefits. I see him continuing to make his points consistently despite others niggling and being narky with him
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Not how I see it. I see someone who has been passionate about his country making a massive mistake, someone who lives in the EU and can see the benefits. I see him continuing to make his points consistently despite others niggling and being narky with him
A sample of replies to other Remain posters.
Just as well you're not holier than thou.
They're not particularly damning quotes to be honest Paul. Try this one:
Manages to be unfunny, unclever and unpleasant all at the same time. Come on Wibble, you're better than that, I know you are.
How is that not exactly what he is accusing me of?
I had a long session with the "believing " poster who lied, misquoted , insulted the whole time but that's fine, you even agreed with him at some point.
Most people ignored him, but I challenged him full on. People didn't like it but I wasn't going to let a stream of lies go unchallenged
What is this, be nice to brexiters week
It's not exactly difficult to understand (although it appears you did anyway given that you wrote off the argument of an extremely intelligent scientist as 'pathetic'). If we enact major social and political change on the basis of a 51% majority, then what exactly happens next week when it swings back to 51% in the other direction? Do we enact further major social and political change? Do we do it again the following week if it swings back again?
The reason most sensible countries insist on 60-65% majorities in referendum is because they are more likely to represent a solid desire and not just a potentially temporary swing.
Insulting another member
You've got 1600 posts on this thread approx half of which are derogatory towards those who don't share your views. And like most bullies you really get your hackles up when challenged. As for any claims that you merely care passionately about your country they obviously don't extend to those who voted leave - you even feel it necessary to denigrate them on your profile page.
Like I said. A thoroughly unpleasant man without any insight into the position of others.
Black humor sourced from despair. Brexit is the worst think to happen to the UK since WW2 and to make it worse it is self inflicted.
Still on your holier than thou, St Remain quest, think you know it all, think you know what I'm like, you don't denigrate Brexiters, no, just Remainers, are you an apologist for leave voters. Always blame someone else, it's always someone else's fault.
If you don't understand what you're voting for, don't vote.
I really dont see what you are seeing with Paul. @Wibble appears to be in the same boat. There is an edge to what he says but I think you are over reacting. Tbh people who vote out of fear and mostly ignorance thus affecting my life make me go on edge too.
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If I thought one of his points was right then I would agree. Many of yours are too, and I'm happy to say so. I have this weird thing where I try and assess the merits of both sides of an argument and then weigh the balance of them. Doesn't fit in well with the Caf unfortunately, but it's fairly normal in real life.
Crikey. Where's that utopia.
Whatever happened to the ‘criticise the post not the poster’ text you’d see before making a post?
You did say he made mincemeat out of me on a particular point which I was halfway through discussing and finally disproved, anyway, it doesn't matter, I agree with the rest of what you said which has been rather the point I've been making all along. You should assess both sides of an argument but do it in an informed way. If someone disagrees for a valid reason , fine, have no problem at all. But there has to be a valid reason, there's my problem.
Yeah, that was deliberately provocative I admit. In defence the guy was hugely outnumbered in that discussion, and he deserved a bit of recognition for his efforts, which may or may not have been disproved
Yeah, that was deliberately provocative I admit. In defence the guy was hugely outnumbered in that discussion, and he deserved a bit of recognition for his efforts, which may or may not have been disproved
He wasn't hugely outnumbered, it started with me who explained why the EU and the commission weren't un-democratic and then Paul had the same conversation. We didn't even do it at the same time.
People need to remember to stay civil in this thread and indeed the wider forum. Appreciate it’s divisive but play nice
Yeah, that was deliberately provocative I admit. In defence the guy was hugely outnumbered in that discussion, and he deserved a bit of recognition for his efforts, which may or may not have been disproved
Hmm, in the end it was only me. I'm not convinced it wasn't Olga in disguise.
Has he given up in this thread now? Not seen him for a bit- was curious about his reaction to the progress.Yeah, that was deliberately provocative I admit. In defence the guy was hugely outnumbered in that discussion, and he deserved a bit of recognition for his efforts, which may or may not have been disproved
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Still no Mogg quotes?
Also why our first past the post voting system is shit, in effect a one party dictatorship followed by another
Oh dear. I have been reported and duly reprimanded for 'insulting another member' in this thread. How odd that insults can be thrown around with impunity to anyone and everyone just so long as the recipient does not post in the thread. Curiouser and curiouser cried Alice. Seems like over-reacting is pretty normal for both sides.
The trouble with assessing merit of both sides is that we are way past that point. Talking the benefits of Brexit are a bit like saying that you are glad that you had both arms amputated because it has cured you of biting your nails. It is just the degree of disaster that it is going to be, economically but even more socially.
We repeatedly begged to get in an now have left of a whim. The world is now laughing at us for doing something even more stupid than voting Trump in. Here in Australia the reaction is one incredulity. The whole world is battling to get into trade agreements with important players like the US, China and the EU and the UK is fighting to get out or at least pay more for less and with no say about the future.
Lack of self awareness is a real problem in today’s world.
“I’m not racist but where’s all the fecking white people!?”
Then again, people like this need to be allowed into a discussion. There’s a real point they’re trying to make underneath it all (I hope). Whether it’s people not integrating and a lot of folks speaking in different languages around him - these are legit issues that even liberals can understand. Not going to get far with “too many brown faces” though.
Also not sure what Brexit is going to do for him. Movement from India and Pakistan isn’t going to be altered from it.
How does this suggest a lack of integration?
I am an immigrant into this country and I think I am fully assimilated.
I speak to and have more White/Caucasian freiends than I do Black/Brown.
However, If I see another Youruba man on the street, I am likely to communicate with that person In Youruba.
It's baffling isn't it? As if two english men in Russia were going to speak russian when they are together. The people that have never immigrated in culturally different countries don't understand that you can keep your own identity and still add what I would call "local layers".
It's all about the effort you put in though. You can just tell by listening to Steve from Harrow that he knows exactly where he should raise his voice in every sentence to make himself fluent in Spanish once his holiday conversations exceeed "una cerveza".
Ah but you’re not paranoid about what’s going on around you. That’s the difference. Like it or not, if you want to fix issues like this, people like this need to be calmed down.
The argument you just made is the one that these people need to be told.
Ignoring the fact that he's closet racist, how did he imagine brexit will stop "brownies" ? The problem is you have a high percentage of people who voted fro brexit with the same line of thinking.
Funny thing is a hard brexit would probably result in more non-EU migration.
The worrying thing is I'm sure many like this prat would far rather all their immigrants were immediately recognizable by the colour of their skin. Most racists know how to bite their tongue when they see a foreigner but love nothing more than to share their bigotry in a whisper with the nearest white face, it must terrify them to never be sure that person is not going to reveal they are Polish or Dutch.
The missus has a few dozen such encounters every week from the shop she works in where people who are perfectly behaved when the young Ghanaian lass is working with her on a Thursday are openly racist on a Friday or Saturday when her assistant is white. She had one yesterday who she had previously thought was OK who suddenly launched into a diatribe about the 'kin Romanians taking all the jobs and getting free houses. My wife's ability to ignore the idiot in the room (honed through years living with me probably) obviously failed her slightly as her face must have betrayed her distaste causing the bigot to stop mid rant and say "Oh God, you're not Romanian are you".
"When I'm told that we have to reflect the local community, is that not racist, James?"
"No, Steve."
What an exchange
Oh come on @Bury Red , you didn't marry a romanian, did you? They are stealing the men now!
Did have a dabble with one in my younger days but no, Mrs Bury is 100% anglo saxon born and raised not 5 miles from the shop she presently works in so for some reason the racists assume they are on safe ground with her. How she's not decked someone yet is a miracle.
Add ignorance and fear to a lack of self awareness. Ignorance from a society structured where people of different ethnic backgrounds don't interact enough to get to know and understand each other. And fear as this caller demonstrates when he talks about losing identity. What he's talking about is the fear he feels re the loss of his identity which is white, in the majority, and therefore holding the power. This is why you get white nationalists matching chanting "You will not replace us" in places like Charlottesville or the UK equivalent shouting "No surrender"
As O'Brien does with the guy in the call the Steve's of this world have got to be engaged with and their concerns discussed. And there needs to be more investment in local community initiatives that focus on educational programs and events that bring people into contact with each other and learn about each other. The onus is then on those different racial and ethnic groups to participate. It's not easy though. I'm involved in a food based initiative in a multicultural city in the Midlands that seeks to bring people of all racial and ethnic backgrounds to sit down and eat together and there is real resistance to it and not particularly from the white folk. There are cultural divides at play that are sometimes very difficult to bridge.
What we are actually past is the referendum. If you have an interest in the future it's just as important to assess arguments and possibilities now as it always is.
I think it was a bad idea with a bad result and we'll be poorer for it, but that doesn't mean I've been traumatised, as many seem to have been, or turned into Private Frazer.
It's alway baffled me trying to work out what exactly we are losing as a culture. Maybe it is just the island mentality.
God knows how you integrate some communities if neither side has any interest in doing so.
Maybe an alien invasion could work.
I guess it depends what you mean as "we". You or I might see our culture as benefiting from immigration. Steve from Harlow clearly perceives his culture as under threat.
And this thread has mistakenly largely painted the Brexit vote as almost wholly a protest vote confined to the old and the white working class but it's not as simple as that. There was a big British Asian vote for Brexit in some areas which doesn't tie into that narrative and highlights a diversity within the leave vote that gets overlooked and is therefore not understood.