Completely with Sarni here - ludicrous decision. Rules are rules and you have to draw the line somewhere but this offence is nowhere near that line. It's like sending someone off for a foul throw.
Celtic Appoint Ronny Deila As New Manager
- Thread starter Zebs
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Actually yes, but that is another discussion.
You guys lost 6-1 ffs. And that forfeited player didnt play a role in that.
Have no idea why you are expressing anger or outrage at this, you should be embarrassed your side is going through this way.
Yeah, it is basically it. They could for example write a law that says that the game is considered a walkover if a club puts incorrect birth date of their player in match day protocol and you messed up someone's date by a year, are you still going to say rules are rules when someone breaks it or are you going to say that the punishment is too harsh for the offense? Failing to register Bereszynski for St Patricks was bad but they did not benefit from that at all, they actually had left his spot open so it was clear they were not replacing him. Blatant misunderstanding of rules, awful administration but that is all it was, it did not change a zilch in the context of actual football.
I was trying to find an example of a similarly meaningless error in a normal life and what penalty it could warrant. I'd say it's an equivalent of failing to submit your customs declaration when you're coming back from the US to Poland (don't know about other EU countries but here you have to submit a small paper where you mention all goods you are importing) because you think that you don't need to do that if you haven't brought anything from the States with you to Poland. Rules are clear, you need to submit it at the airport even if you're coming with no luggage at all, doesn't matter if you are importing anything or not. But it goes tits up and you fail to present your declaration because you forget to/think you don't have to, either way you are simply wrong not to.
In real life you'd be fined for that or even let off with no punishment at all. In this scenario happening right now you're basically getting life sentece/death penalty. Tough life, rules are rules, eh?
Last edited:
I've already said it's embarrassing to get through like that. Doesn't mean I'm not desperate for another crack at Champions League football!
I'm angry at them appealing this because of the absurdity of it.
They admitted they broke the rules. A rule that's very clear in it's punishment if breached. Yet they appeal anyway simply because the consequences of the hugely standard and basic punishment puts them out on away goals. That should be of absolutely no concern to UEFA.
Think about it this way... say they won the first leg 7-0 and then forfeited the second leg 3-0. Would you, Sarni, Legia or anyone else think it was harsh? We all know the answer to that one.
Am I missing something here? Why has this discussion gone on so long? Legia fielded a suspended player and forfeited a game. The score of a forfeited game at all levels in football is 3-0 so Celtic were poxy lucky and progress to the next round of the champions league on away goals. This may well be slightly harsh given the circumstances here but the rules are set down and Legia are out. This open letter stuff and replay offer reminds me of Ireland's attempts to get into the World Cup after the Henry handball a few years back. Why don't legia ask to me the substitute team in the group stages should another team pull out. It all gets a bit embarrassing after a while.
Exactly. Even in FIFA if you quit the match it's a 3-0 defeat. That's how standard it is
They're essentially appealing that the punishment (which is entirely fair though unfortunate for them) should be changed so they can still go through. They have absolutely no problem with the punishment itself, only the consequences of it. I fail to see why UEFA should overrule their own rulebook so that Legia can advance.
Legia's appeal also mentions that UEFA need to have 3 members present when coming to the decision and only 1 was. I fail to see how that gets them off with their breach of the rules. If only they'd looked further into the rulebook and saw this part...
An hour before the draw was made and with both teams being seeded differently thus ruling out a "Celtic/Legia" entry into the draw. I'd say that qualifies as "urgent".
Death threats for the girl responsible for the error and being moved out of Warsaw. Disgusting. There's more to blame than just her.
Last edited:
a rule that had zero impact on the end result and it wasn't there intention to cheat but rather a mistake.
ofcourse they will appeal, its a joke that they are being punished for this.
Right we will not agree on the fact that football rules are there for a reason and have punishments in place if they are broken. Now for the bolded parts. What does football have to do with customs? If I brought a vegetable into Australia that is not indigenous to the country it could damage that eco system. That veg is taken from me and I am fined according to their law, honest mistake or not.
Point out where I mention taxes? Stop placing words in my mouth. I never made an outside of football reference. And yes if I don't submit tax returns on time thats my fault and I would be punished accordingly. Whats your point? Breaking the rules and getting caught you are punished by the law governing these rules. Legia are being punished by a rule governing registration not, for example, bribing or match fixing. The punishment would be different as its a different rule
No one got hurt? Not yet yes but she has got death threats and has had to leave the city. Her honest mistake is being treated very badly by the fans and yet they claim it to be a minor rule breaking. In the end they got caught, UEFA will dish out the punishment they see fit and this whole episode will ensure no other club is as ignorant and stupid to be so relaxed with the rules. Those rules are there for all
I laid out a comparison that shows how daft it is to punish a club to this extent for such a small error. You wouldn't get a death penalty for bringing that vegetable, you wouldn't get a life sentence for submitting tax declaration too late - that's my point, the punishment here is way beyond reason. No one in this thread has ever said that Legia should not be punished at all, of course they should - not to such extent though. To let a team that just lost 6-1 in the tie back into the competition because your opposition messed up paperwork is silly.
To create a rule that leaves no space to consider circumstances itself does look pretty poor to me. I reckon UEFA will alter that rule slightly in the future so that nothing like this ever happens again because they can clearly feel the outrage of football world right now and they won't want this to repeat.
'Rules are rules' nonsense is becoming tiresome. Obviously there's a rule and I know well that going by the rules Legia are rightly dismissed from the competition. That doesn't change the fact that I can point out blatant flaw with the rule itself, I'd be pointing it out if it knocked Liverpool out because it's clearly there and just because the rule was written that way doesn't mean that I cannot ever question it. Such thinking is middle age at best.
Last edited:
It's a joke they're being punished for fielding a suspended player? Therein lies the issue. Being out of the CL isn't their punishment!
They didn't let us back into the competition at all. Our away goal did that.
All right, now you've won your progress on the pitch then. Congrats for the great work of scoring a single goal away from home in a 4-1 loss.
Yes, the extent of the punishment is a joke. There should be a solid ground for verifying on the pitch scoreline for me and putting a player out there for 3 minutes because you wrongly but honestly think he's eligible should never cancel the actual outcome of the football game. A fine for failing to register your player for the previous round because you thought you didn't have to would be absolutely enough.
This rule has been created to prevent teams from fielding suspended players, obviously, and to protect clubs from losing out because of that. Celtic have not lost anything because of that yet they will benefit.
What they meant by it was probably to prevent a situation where Real Madrid have three suspended players before a semi-final against Bayern Munich after a 2-1 win at home then field all of them in the return leg knowing well that they will stand a better chance of going through if they do. You can't let them off with slight financial punishment in this case. However, in another scenario the same Real Madrid put Casillas on the bench without realising that he had to be checked in in the previous round to serve his 1-game suspesion, and was injured so they did not write his name down in the match day protocol. He doesn't play a part in their victory as they cruise to a 3-0 win at Bayern Munich. Scoreline is also verified as 3-0 to Bayern - can you see the difference between the two situations? Under UEFA rules they'd be exactly the same.
The rule is still a joke to an extent though. If you won your first game 4-0 but lost all three of your top defenders, and knew that the other team is pretty dangerous, you could field them all in the return leg. You're more likely to keep the score below 4-0 if you play all of them and even if you lose 2-0 or something the score will only be verified as 3-0?
What they meant by it was probably to prevent a situation where Real Madrid have three suspended players before a semi-final against Bayern Munich after a 2-1 win at home then field all of them in the return leg knowing well that they will stand a better chance of going through if they do. You can't let them off with slight financial punishment in this case. However, in another scenario the same Real Madrid put Casillas on the bench without realising that he had to be checked in in the previous round to serve his 1-game suspesion, and was injured so they did not write his name down in the match day protocol. He doesn't play a part in their victory as they cruise to a 3-0 win at Bayern Munich. Scoreline is also verified as 3-0 to Bayern - can you see the difference between the two situations? Under UEFA rules they'd be exactly the same.
The rule is still a joke to an extent though. If you won your first game 4-0 but lost all three of your top defenders, and knew that the other team is pretty dangerous, you could field them all in the return leg. You're more likely to keep the score below 4-0 if you play all of them and even if you lose 2-0 or something the score will only be verified as 3-0?
The extent of the punishment isn't a joke. The extent of the punishment is absolutely standard in football.
Would you or Legia be outraged at a 3-0 loss if you'd won the first leg 7-0? Of course not. Once again. It's not the punishment you have an issue with, it's the consequence, which, to be perfectly honest, is tough luck.
Death threats for the woman are obviously silly, we're not talking about a widespread anger though, most people here recognize it was a poor error but just a honest mistake. Obviously she should be sacked for pure ignorance in this case though. Actually before the game Kuciak (goalkeeper) and Bereszyński approached her and asked her to check if Bereszyński was permitted to play in the game (Kuciak was wary of that because his previous club, Vaslui, were punished for something similar). She told them that she takes care of these things and they should only worry about playing. For that alone she should never be allowed to work at the club again, she is not qualified to and they're paying the price now even if it's exaggerated.
You're changing your tune somehow, a few days ago you did admit the punishment was harsh. Unless you've simply joined the camp 'rules are rules and we can never point out obvious flaws in them' I'm a bit puzzled. Even if it's standard punishment going strictly by the rules it's still a vastly exaggerated punishment that should never occur under current circumstances. They should (and probably will) loosen the rules on that because of what happened here.
Now we're basically saying it's a fine punishment and Legia are at fault themselves because they failed to beat Celtic by more than 5 (or 3)? They fecking battered them on the pitch, there was no question who was the better team, you cannot possibly say that Celtic in any way deserved that progress away goal or not!
To be fair I'd have less of a problem with simple disqualification. A team drawn against Legia in another round would get a bye to the group stages and that's all. For Celtic to benefit from Legia's incompetence is something I have a slight problem with, you cannot lose a tie by 5 goals and remain in the competition.
I think it's harsh for the players who clearly deserve to be in the next round. I've always said that. I don't think it's harsh that they have to forfeit a match in which they fielded a suspended player. I think that's standard.
You mention the Legia player who's experienced this before. That match finished 1-1 but Vaslui were then awarded a 3-0 win because the other team fielded a suspended player. There's another precedent. How the f*ck can that goalkeeper complain about the decision from UEFA when he's benefited from the exact same decision in the past for the exact same breach of the rules
When did that suspended player join the action? If only he hadnt played, you guys would have overturned a five goal deficit in five minutes. I see your point now, you guys were hard done.
Doesn't matter when he entered the pitch, him being on the bench was enough to warrant a walkover - if someone cannot see fault with this rule they're blind.
fixed.
I think it's harsh for the players who clearly deserve to be in the next round. I've always said that. I don't think it's harsh that they have to forfeit a match in which they fielded a suspended player. I think that's standard.
You mention the Legia player who's experienced this before. That match finished 1-1 but Vaslui were then awarded a 3-0 win because the other team fielded a suspended player. There's another precedent. How the f*ck can that goalkeeper complain about the decision from UEFA when he's benefited from the exact same decision in the past for the exact same breach of the rules
He hasn't really complained about anything from what I have seen, I don't see why he couldn't though - he could have benefited from the sitaution without thinking it was right that he had?
Yep but 2-0 never happened because Legia cheated.
Does it matter when he joined the action? Say he'd scored (a goal that would've been irrelevant, admittedly) would it still be harsh to punish them for fielding him? Would the arguments then be "ah, well it was 6-1 on agg at the time so what difference did it make?" A rule was breached and they were handed the exact same punishment that every other club has been handed ffs.
No one's saying they cheated. I even admitted that.
If we're getting pedantic though, then I'll join in. They did cheat in Warsaw. The diving from them was outrageous yet the referee bought it. 6-1's a freak result too. We played over half of the game in Poland with 10 men, you had two penalties in that game and yet, through all of that, it was only 2-1 with 5 minutes left. That's how great Legia are. 2-0 in Edinburgh we were chasing the game (that's what happens when you need to win 3-0, you leave space to be exploited through your risks). No doubt about it, Legia were the better team, but the moral high ground and smugness emanating from Poland is becoming a bit much. Their last "#LetFootballWin" campaign is particularly embarrassing. Were they all about fair play and football when they were cheating and conning the ref in Poland? Were they f*ck.
Of course it would be. Rules exist to make sure no side cheats to gain an advantage, how exactly did legia gain an advantage here?
Well, if he'd come on at 2-2 and scored a winner the punishment would obviously be fair. If they fielded him knowing well he's suspended because the suspension had been handed out in the previous game, then even at 6-1 I'd probably also understand. As things stand neither of these arguments is valid for this case.
How the feck have they cheated in Poland? Both penalties were spot on and you had a player rightly dismissed for a foul when our player was breaking 1 on 1, Legia dominated the whole game even predecessing red card and created numerous chances only failed to take most of them. 4-1 was a very fair scoreline that reflected the flow of the game, Celtic barely played football.
So, you think the scoreline should be taken into consideration for a breach of the rules? How is that fair on teams in the past who've had the exact same punishment handed down to them?
Yes, it should. Circumstances of crime are always taken into consideration in real life and should also be considered in football. The other part of the rule is completely fair and leaves space for that which is why Debrecen were rightly let off for fielding Mate.
If teams in the past had the same punishment handed down to them under exact same circumstances I think it was unfair on them as well. Obviously past cannot be changed but that does not influence how I view things now. People used to be killed because of their religion - do you think it's unfair on people already murdered that we don't do that anymore?
The red card was fair. The penalties, I disagree with. My point about the red card is we played with less men than Legia for over half of the match and were still only losing 2-1 with 5 minutes to go.
The match over both legs ended in a disaster for us because our manager kept attacking and leaving spaces even when losing 2-1 with 10 men away from home (a great result if you shut up and shop and accept it!) That much is undeniable. Come back to Celtic Park (not Murrayfield) for a play-off if they wish. The scoreline won't be anywhere near what it was. I only bring up the first match because of his moral high ground Legia are taking over Celtic when we've done absolutely nothing wrong. Their issue should be with UEFA yet they're writing us open letters and bringing up our legends of the past who'd be disgusted by what we've done etc etc.
Were they about fair play and "letting football win" when they were deemed to have been fixing matches in the early 1990's?
The only thing I think is that it's absolutely crazy to be comparing this to murder's and real life courtrooms.
For some crimes you'll get a different sentence than someone else for the same crime IRL. A lot of that is down to your past record etc etc. It's not the same in football. The rules are there in black and white and it's clear what the punishment is from the start.
Because Legia were wasteful. They did end up scoring extra two goals which gave them advantage (or no advantage at all as it turned out).
Legia were a very dirty club between 60s and 90s. I am not particularly fond of the club, they seem to be well run (except this obvious error) but that's about all I can say about them that is positive.
All right, people in the past were jailed for selling alcohol. The law has changed, is it unfair on people from the past not to jail people for the same thing now? Laws change, courts constantly create precedences, we're living in a dynamic environment and these things change. By 2005 rules Chelsea should not enter CL in 2012-13. And your last sentence is exactly my point - while creating rules you need to leave space for interpretation and implement them based on circumstances. UEFA hadn't and it's an obvious mistake IMO for which Legia are currently paying in equal part as they are paying for their own incompetence.
Again, I think it's crazy comparing such things to football. Law's may change, you're correct, but this UEFA law hasn't. For as long as I've known football it's always been a 3-0 win in a forfeit. Everyone except Legia seems to know and accept this.
Legia's case is lost anyway, they won't change the decision and going by the letter of rules they should not. I am fully aware of that.
Hopefully rules will be more loose in the future though so that nothing like this happens again. I don't even care who it happens to, I want football to be about what goes on on the pitch, I don't want my team to benefit from another team filling the wrong paperwork etc. I don't watch football games where at the end of a 2-0 win instead of celebrating I'm thinking to myself 'have they sent all the paperwork to UEFA so it can stand?'.
Hopefully rules will be more loose in the future though so that nothing like this happens again. I don't even care who it happens to, I want football to be about what goes on on the pitch, I don't want my team to benefit from another team filling the wrong paperwork etc. I don't watch football games where at the end of a 2-0 win instead of celebrating I'm thinking to myself 'have they sent all the paperwork to UEFA so it can stand?'.
No one has a problem with the fact that forfeit is 3-0. They have a problem that forfeit is being handed out in this particular case because they don't think that the extent of the breaking of rules is sufficient to justify that. Going by strict rules the decision is spot on, I'll say it again, going by fair play and reason it is not and neither is the rule that led to it.
Nothing embarassing in what Legia are doing anyway for me, just like it wasn't embarassing IMO that United appealed Rio's ban and that Liverpool wanted to participate in 2005-06 CL because they won the previous round. If you think that the decision is unfair you will appeal it even if by the letter of law you might be wrong. Clubs appeal all the time.