It's crazy how we're missing Hargreaves.I would never have thought of it but it is the truth
Central midfield this season...
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I share this hope. Anderson does have the potential to do as Giggs does now, and there's plenty of time for him to realise it. Unfortunately, we need him to be like that now really.
Carrick scored 2 goals in his entire Spurs career. I would say he's improved as a goal threat, since joining United. Goals aside, he has looked one of our most likely central midfielders to score throughout this season, along with Fletcher.
Neither of them come will ever come close to scoring as many goals as Scholes in his pomp but not many midfielders do. They are both quality players and will wade in with a reasonable amount of goals. They will both always be more like an Alonso than a Gerrard - in terms of goal-threat - but they should still be plenty good enough for a place in our best XI, for a good few years to come.
Goes without saying that Giggs and Scholes are class players with the experience and composure you want to see in front of goal. They're not gonna be round much longer though and Fletcher has started to look like a genuine goal threat this season. The more goals he scores the more confident he will get when the next chance comes his way.
Huh? Does that make any sense?
I'll be amazed if United's long term future CM partnership is Carrick-Fletcher, and a lack of goals is just one of the reasons that make me say that.
Watching either of them in front of goal, it's painfully obvious that neither is a natural goal-scorer. At their age, however much they work at it, they're not going to improve much in that aspect - it's just not part of their games.
United is too big a club to rely on hoping players make minimal improvements at something they're not naturally gifted at. Sooner or later we'll have to address the fact that there's no obvious source of goals in our long term CM plans.
Carrick and Fletcher have looked the most dangerous, getting into the best positions and getting on the end of things(in Fletcher's case) or having a few digs from outside the box(in Carrick's case).
They've both looked much more dangerous than Giggs or Scholes in terms of being a goal threat, this season.
Well it should do. Especially seeing as you're the one insisting on assessing goal-threat through measures other than the number of goals scored. Goals scored aside, Carrick and Fletcher have looked much more likely than Giggs/Scholes to get on the end of something in the box (especially Fletcher) and to trouble the keeper from range (especially Carrick) All of which explains why they've scored more goals than Giggs and Scholes this season, after matching their tally last season.
If you still insist that Giggs and Scholes pose more or a goal threat (and I'm talking about the present, obviously, not their entire careers) then there's not much more I can say on the matter.
Yeah, we probably do. As I keep saying, I hope that Anderson might develop into this player, despite his struggles so far. If not then yeah, we do need to bring someone in. This is the second time I've agreed with this point now. Do you think we should write Anderson off already?
Fletcher just like Hargreaves provide the energy (the legs) and tactical discipline which enables the likes of Carrick (no energy or legs) and Anderson (no tactical discipline) to do what they do best. Giggs has both energy and discipline but he can be a bit hit and miss as he is not a natural central midfielder.
It's crazy that you believe that, he was almost always rubbish in central midfield
Carrick covers more ground then Fletcher
Really?
How'd you work that out?
Not saying it isn't possible - Carrick covers more ground than he's given credit for - but you can't throw that out as a "facht" without backing it up with some evidence.
I've often been curious to find out how much distance some of our squad covers in each game, be great if you have a source for this info.
Fletcher does not look like a genuine goal threat, he's only scored 4 goals this season
He's looked more of a goal threat than our alternative central midfielders, that's for sure. Hence, he's scored more goals than any of them.
You seem to be going round in circles here mate.
And I do prefer it when you add 'Goals aside...' to your assertion that Fletcher has looked more of a 'goal threat' than Giggs and Scholes. Comedy genius, that.
I have not got a definitive list for the squad but in terms of ground covered Carrick did the most against Inter this season, was second to Park in the Barca match last season. I should have said he covers as much ground as Fletcher rather then more.
Therein lies a difference, the pace and vigour at which he covers ground. Carrick is an interceptor, he moves across to position himself to receive a ball or offer an option. Fletcher and Hargreaves are manhunters, stalkers if you like.
Why bother laughing at me when your own opinion can also provide you with hours of amusement?
* "statistic" being discussed here is the number of goals scored.
He's scored a couple more goals, Giggs breaks forward better, Carricks been getting into the box, winning a penalty, setting up goals
Yeah, that's probably true. Would be very interesting to see the stats for the whole squad, to have some objective evidence about this sort of thing.
This is one of those questions which make me wish Ferguson had a better relationship with the press - I'd love to see him sit down for half an hour and outline how he sees Anderson's future at the club. I've literally no idea if Ferguson even sees a future for Anderson at the club, let alone in which position. He's certainly been far short of where I expected him to be this season - he is one player who should really have expected to benefit from Hargreaves absence yet he's not grasped the opportunity at all...
Don't buy it, did you see the way Fletch failed to chase back for the second this weekend?
Aye, well we've found some common ground here. I agree with every word of that post and I've often been frustrated at how rarely we get to hear SAF talk about football in any great detail (as opposed to being forced to respond to whatever inane agenda the tabloid press is peddling that particular week)
Saw it, but I am not an advocate of a two man midfield, three is the answer.
You are talking about one more goal then Giggs and 2 more then Scholes and Carrick, you seem to think there's a great significance in this, there isn't
Fletcher has a fantastic engine and tracks back as often and as dilligently as anyone in the squad. Singling out a single incident of him failing to track back - late in the second half of a game where we were a man down - is incredibly harsh.
The formation did not cause his legs to fail to work
I would say it's definitely significant in a discussion about who provides the main goal threat from midfield. Chances are it's not the midfielders who have scored the least goals.
Of course, goals per game might provide a more accurate summary but I can't be arsed doing the maths.
No but tiredness did.
Fantastic engine which failed to work
See Pogue's reply above. Given the nature of their specialty it is inevitable that players like Fletcher get tired towards the end of the game. The situation last Saturday, wasn't helped by having to play with ten men for close to 70 minutes
Dunno what your point is here.
Is it that Fletcher doesn't have a great engine?
Or are you actually using a single incident, from within a single game, as some sort of evidence against him?
Cause applying that logic to Carrick's performance against Liverpool would make him out to be kind of crap.
"Remember that mis-hit first time pass out to the left wing? The one he spooned up in the air? Made a right pig's ear out of it. Bloke can't pass for shit."
I was merely pointing out that using this season's statistics as definitive proof of Fletcher's greater goal threat in comparison to Giggs and Scholes is a little unfair when you really ought to widen the net a little and take into account the fact that Giggs and Scholes have proved over many seasons that they're naturally talented scorers while Fletcher has been a complete failure in front of goal over the past few seasons.
My issue with this blatant muppetry:
is that if you're not basing it on goals, what the feck are you basing his supposed 'goal threat' on?
I assume you're going to say, for the umpteenth time, that he 'gets on the end of things'. He may very well accomplish this brilliant feat however he rarely shows the required talent to actually turn this ability into getting a goal. Giggs and Scholes both have shown they have this ability.
I don't believe that it's something Fletcher can learn but I think he's very good at what he does. Brilliant, in fact. I'd never talk about him becoming a goal scorer though, 'goals aside' or otherwise...
He's works hard, no harder then Carrick, Anderson or Hargreaves, I think his defensive work is overblown because there isn't much else to praise.
And you accuse me of going in circles? And I'm the one who's condescending?
For the umpteenth fecking time, Giggs and Scholes have nothing left to prove. They have been prolific goal-scorers throughout their careers but the goals have dried up these last two seasons. This is most likely due to them playing in deeper positions but it doesn't change the blatant fact that we should not be relying on them to get us goals, nor should we continue to think of them as being our most potent goal threats (seeing as potent goal threats have to, you know, score goals?) This isn't a slight on their careers to date, just a simple observation on what they bring to the team nowadays.
Goals aside (a stat you readily dismissed when I pointed out that Fletcher was our top-scorer but got all snidey when I tried to look beyond it) it is my opinion that Fletcher and Carrick have looked more likely to score this season than Scholes and Giggs. Fletcher is more likely to get into the box and Carrick's shooting from range has been more accurate. Obviously this is my opinion but I'm sure I could dig out stats about shots on target and the like if you continue to refuse to accept the whole "goals scored" thing. All the evidence over the last two seasons would indicate that Giggs, Scholes (and Anderson) do not provide more of a goal threat than Carrick and Fletcher, the issue we've been discussing all day.
I'm happy to agree to disagree with you on this though. You obviously knnow your onions about football and United but life's too short to argue the toss with someone who seems unable to stick to the topic at hand without a load of petty point-scoring and snidey comments.
There's a separate discussion to be had - and an interesting one, if you can manage to cut out the abuse - about whether we will lack goals from midfield over the next few years. We've definitely lacked goals from central midfield for a few seasons now, ever since Scholes reinvented himself as a deep-lying play-maker. I would like to think that Carrick and Fletcher will continue to improve and/or Anderson will suddenly blossom into a prolific attacking midfielder. You seem convinced that we need to sign someone new, which is a valid point - you may well be right. I appreciate that I'm being a tad optimistic about Anderson's development / ongoing improvement in Fletcher and Carrick. Time will tell.
hargreaves basil brush fletcher engine shoot carrick positioning missing robson scholes legend past it floella benjamin attack pogue gibson running at defenders mika his name is luka he plays for a team that's poor keano deceptive statistics fantastic failed three man two man support mahone cover width boom boom drive deflection gerrard lack of anderson defensive tired vague settled selection work-rate owen goals ulrika
Bollocks is it.
This may be news to you, but we are top with a game in hand and a relatively easy run in, we are into the Semi Finals of the FA Cup, we are in the Quarter Finals of the Champions League and we also won the League Cup.
I think we are missing him. Not hugely, but a little. He is an experienced, solid and versatile midfielder. Would be strange if we werent missing him. But we can definitely do it without him.
Im looking forward to having him back in the fold more than I ever thought I would be.
Im looking forward to having him back in the fold more than I ever thought I would be.
Hear, hear
He could have come in very handy at right back recently.