let's sign david beckham or viera for some character in out midfield
Central midfield this season...
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Hopefully Anderson can produce a big season. That would be the creativity box ticked.
I'm happy with the Carrick-Fletcher partnership for now and I think that both are improving each season. I can't recall a match where that partnership did not perform well - particularly in big matches. Giggs and Anderson can come in and add some verve and also gives us the option of 451. If Hargreaves could get back to fitness then that'd be fantastic too.
I'm happy with the Carrick-Fletcher partnership for now and I think that both are improving each season. I can't recall a match where that partnership did not perform well - particularly in big matches. Giggs and Anderson can come in and add some verve and also gives us the option of 451. If Hargreaves could get back to fitness then that'd be fantastic too.
People go on about how important it is to have a settled central defensive pairing, but I think it is equally important in the middle of the park. The chopping and changing can't be good for continuity.
agree with this, and i think if there is one area of the first team that we lack quality, it is central midfield.
I don't know about lack of quality. In Carrick and Fletcher we have two top class central midfield players. In my opinion though, when we play them together we lack a creative impulse in there. It looks better if you add a Giggs, Scholes or even Anderson to the mix. Problem with a midfield three is that you then have to sacrifice a striker.
To me, we are lacking a real good midfield balance. Like the Scholes-Carrick pairing of 06-07 which was underrated defensively, retained the ball brilliantly, but with Scholes, also had a real extra creative edge.
We don't really have two midfielders that we can play together that give us a good mixture of attack and defence. We always seem to need to add a third man to get the balance - which inevitably leads to Wayne on the left.
Oh for Roy Keane.
It seems to me that Carrick is the barometer of how well the team is playing, and last year was a perfect example. In the beginning, he was out with his foot injury, and the team slogged its way through inconsistency. When he came back and performed well, the team got on a hot streak. Towards the end of the season, he had a slight dip in form. Perhaps it was the foot injury that kept him out of national duties, but regardless, when he played poorly, so went the team it seems. If Carrick performs well, regardless who he's coupled with, I think that is when Utd is very difficult to beat.
Carrick keeps the side ticking over. He makes more passes than anyone in the team, he is the first port of call when the defence look to pass it out of the back. He really does dictate our rhythm. When he is on song, we really do flow quite brilliantly. As good a passer as he is though, we sometimes mistake him for a creative player, I think. I wouldn't say there was anything remotely creative about Carrick's passing - he is a continuity player, in that he keeps things flowing left to right, back and forth. But I don't see him having the ability to carve open an opponent in the same way as Scholes, or even Giggs.
that was kinda my point. We have decent quality in midfield, but i wouldnt put Fletcher or even Carrick along the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Essien, Gerrard, Lampard or even Fabregas. We dont need an entire team of BPitW's of course, but compare our midfield options to most other top sides and i think we look a bit weak in comparison.
The problem is there aren't any realistic options on the transfer market. Name one central midfielder a) who would improve us immensely, b) who is transferable and c) for whom we wouldn't have to pay immensely over the odds.
Honestly, I can't see anybody who would meet these criteria.
Yeah, but it's more a case of 1 in every 10. Carrick tries a lot of expansive passes, but he doesn't have the same precision as Alonso/Scholes.
If I was pigeon holding Carrick, I'd say he was the player that keeps us ticking over. He isn't a creative midfielder. That's not a slight on him - it's just not his forte. I think it's the one area of midfield that we are deficient if you consider Scholes' and Giggs' ages.
Yeah, but it's not a lack of quality. Carrick, when on song, is comfortable in the company of some of the best midfield players in the world. Let's not go down the route of saying he doesn't do what Essien, Lampard, Gerrard, Fabregas etc do. That may be the case, but they do not do what Carrick does either...
Gerrard, I am dismissing from the debate - he doesn't have the discipline to even play central midfield.
We don't lack quality in midfield - that is unfair on Carrick and Fletcher who have both proved to be top class. We just lack a creative player who is top class - that is not to say that some of the other midfielders we have are not of high quality.
It's funny how the Champions League final has put everyone on such a downer. And this feeling still persists.
The way I see it is that Carrick has never been fully accepted as being top class - especially by those outside the club. Same with Fletcher. But look at the form overall in the past 3 seasons and their contribution to our successes and then try and argue they aren't top class. How many league titles and European Cups have Fabregas, Essien, Lampard et al won in the same period? It's a nonsense. You don't get our success without having a very good midfield.
Essentially, we were outplayed by the best team on the planet and it didn't help that a number of our own big guns didn't really turn up.
Perceptions can change very quickly. I'm betting that the mood will be better come the middle of the season - we can't write Hargreaves off yet. If he comes back fit - he is a top class option. Anderson is only 21. Then you also have Giggs, Scholes and Gibson in the mix. We have a lot of good options.
I do think we're crying out load for a player who is comfortable in a two, who is comfortable defensively and also creative. There are only a handful out there though.
The way I see it is that Carrick has never been fully accepted as being top class - especially by those outside the club. Same with Fletcher. But look at the form overall in the past 3 seasons and their contribution to our successes and then try and argue they aren't top class. How many league titles and European Cups have Fabregas, Essien, Lampard et al won in the same period? It's a nonsense. You don't get our success without having a very good midfield.
Essentially, we were outplayed by the best team on the planet and it didn't help that a number of our own big guns didn't really turn up.
Perceptions can change very quickly. I'm betting that the mood will be better come the middle of the season - we can't write Hargreaves off yet. If he comes back fit - he is a top class option. Anderson is only 21. Then you also have Giggs, Scholes and Gibson in the mix. We have a lot of good options.
I do think we're crying out load for a player who is comfortable in a two, who is comfortable defensively and also creative. There are only a handful out there though.
Absolutely. I'd love a Fabregas and Essien partnership but it's not plausible.
The other amazing thing is that of those six listed, four have been at their current club since the age of 16 or younger, whilst the other two transfered whilst still relatively young and unproven. Central midfielders of that quality are almost invaluable to their clubs and rarely move clubs once they reach their peak. I hope that, with Scholes and Giggs nearing the end of their playing days, we can unearth a couple of real talents in the next few years. Anderson is nearly there, Gibson has shown some promise, and although it's early days just yet I'm hearing good things about some of the academy lads.
Agreed. This is exactly how I feel as well. I think what our midfield is seriously missing is a particularly creative, attacking midfielder. None of our midfielders get more than about 5 goals a season for a start, which is the main weakness to our squad.
Giggs is probably our most creative midfield player, with the most assists, but he can't play more than 1 game a week and I'd like to see some of the others getting more assists - like Carrick, for example, who is a good player but doesn't assist as much as he should. Also, Anderson needs to improve and Fletcher, whilst being a greatly improved player, isn't the creative-type midfielder we need. Scholes used to be but isn't anymore.
The problem is, I can't think of any suitable attacking midfielders who we could put a bid in for. They're either no way going to sign for us, not United standard or would be massively overpriced.
I'm surprised that some people think Carrick and Fletcher aren't top class. That pairing is as good at controlling a match as any in the league. I think that should be settled opinion. Whether they can answer Utd's new need for goals is another but separate question.
I guess folks think Utd's going back to a 442 now? It seems to me that the best answer to the need for a top-class attacking playmaker is to include Giggs. That could be in a 442 with Fletcher, Hargreaves, or Carrick (in order of effectiveness imo). But I think it would be best like this:
------ Fletcher Carrick
Valencia Giggs Rooney
------- Berbatov
or what about using Berbatov as a playmaker, which is such a tremendous strength of his?
------ Fletcher Carrick
Valencia Berbatov Nani
-------- Rooney
I know it's trendy, but the 4231 seems to offer the stability and solidity of a great 2-man cm plus both scoring and playmaking options.
I guess folks think Utd's going back to a 442 now? It seems to me that the best answer to the need for a top-class attacking playmaker is to include Giggs. That could be in a 442 with Fletcher, Hargreaves, or Carrick (in order of effectiveness imo). But I think it would be best like this:
------ Fletcher Carrick
Valencia Giggs Rooney
------- Berbatov
or what about using Berbatov as a playmaker, which is such a tremendous strength of his?
------ Fletcher Carrick
Valencia Berbatov Nani
-------- Rooney
I know it's trendy, but the 4231 seems to offer the stability and solidity of a great 2-man cm plus both scoring and playmaking options.
I'm surprised you're surprised, if you have even a passing familiarity with the mongos hanging out in this place
Do you really think Fabregas is better than Carrick?
Certainly, nothing we have seen from Cesc so far would suggest this.
I think they're very good midfielders, but they're not really creative enough to be our fixed midfield partnership. I'm not sure about their stats regarding assists but I can't imagine they're that frequent, and neither of them will get more then about 4 goals a season. We need goals from our midfield, or plenty of assists. I can't see it happening with just those two.
In fact, thinking about this, I can barely think of any world class midfielders who have transfered for big fees/at their peak. Going back to the previous generation of top class mids, you have Keane, Vieira, Gattuso, Pirlo who all moved to the club they had their best years at in their early 20s. Scholes through the ranks.
Makelele, Carrick and Hargreaves are the 3 best players I can think of so far who have transfered in the mid-late twenties for big fees.
In terms of creativity and attacking threat, yes. He is/would be fantastic alongside an Essien/Gattuso/Fletcher type of player
Carrick is better defensively though.
Ah, so not better, just different players.
Well, I think that Fabregas could far exceed Carrick in time.
Yeah, I think he has it in his locker to be better, but not as considerably as you make out.
Get our Cesc to show us his medals.
Carrick is criminally underrated.
I'm amazed that we can have had the success that we have had over the past three seasons and yet people still hold that our midfield options are inferior to the equivalents at Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal. Amazed.
it was just a rhetorical ployI'm surprised you're surprised, if you have even a passing familiarity with the mongos hanging out in this place
Spot on, this is so true.
Since we signed Carrick we went on to win three league titles in a row while reaching two Champions League finals in two years as well. It's certainly not down to him alone (Ronaldo becoming the world's best player had something to do with it
), but he suits our style well and proved to be an excellent addition to our squad. He wouldn't be a United first team player if he wasn't any good at all.I don't doubt the likes of Essien or Fabregas (or even Alonso) could be brilliant for us as well, but the thing is they don't play for United and have failed to help their respective teams to success similar to Carrick at United.
Carrick is a top class player and one indeed very poor game against a top class midfield on the European stage won't make much of a difference. I can't understand why so many are still doubting his abilities, let alone those doubters being United supporters who watch him week in, week out.
You're surely joking? Fabregas is different class from Carrick.
Fabregas is much better than Carrick, very good player though Carrick is.
Our midfield's been inferior to Chelsea's and Liverpool's for a few years, and trophy hauls don't change that.
Without Ronaldo (and without Tevez fighting his vanguard battles), then unless about three or four of the following things happen -
a) Anderson starts playing really well really often
b) Carrick somehow becomes imposing
c) Darren Fletcher becomes a really top class player
c) Valencia turns out to be terrific
d) Nani becomes far more consistent
e) Gibson turns out to be much better than he's looked since he was seventeen
f) A Caf time display issue leads to Paul Scholes becoming twenty-seven again
g) Giggs stays fit again and can still play every week
h) Owen Hargreaves
- then our midfield will not be good enough this time round.
Our midfield's been inferior to Chelsea's and Liverpool's for a few years, and trophy hauls don't change that.
Without Ronaldo (and without Tevez fighting his vanguard battles), then unless about three or four of the following things happen -
a) Anderson starts playing really well really often
b) Carrick somehow becomes imposing
c) Darren Fletcher becomes a really top class player
c) Valencia turns out to be terrific
d) Nani becomes far more consistent
e) Gibson turns out to be much better than he's looked since he was seventeen
f) A Caf time display issue leads to Paul Scholes becoming twenty-seven again
g) Giggs stays fit again and can still play every week
h) Owen Hargreaves
- then our midfield will not be good enough this time round.
if he stays fit, our midfield improves at least 50%
He doesn't stay fit. He's Owen Hargreaves.
He's not much better than Fletcher in any case. You need to play Carrick as a DM and get a passing midfielder as a Scholes replacement (or coax another year out of the great man).
With the 4 - 2 - 3 - 1 system our central midfield had served us well. We could afford to have 2 central midfielders whose job was merely to win the ball and pass it to the forward line who had all the quality needed to do goals.SAF had also the choice to fine tune his world class forward line by putting Berbatov when we needed more creativity or Tevez when we needed more gritt and workrate. I still believe that a better finisher would have made that system perfect, anyway thats a total different argument now.
Ronaldo was not only central in our system by providing creativity to the side but he was also our main goalscorer. So with him gone the wisest decision that can be taken is to revert to the 4 - 4 - 2 system which is simpler to understand and allows us two permanent strikers to share the workload. The problem is central midfield. Do we have that quality defensive midfielder capable of adding the steel needed in a 4 men midfield? Do we have that creative playmaker capable not only to dictate our game but also to score goals?
Both questions can be answered with a maybe. We do have a quality defensive midfielder in Hargreaves and we do have a very promising playmaker in Anderson. Unfortunately we also know their weaknesses. One is injury prone, the other one is still young and tend to go in headless chicken mode far too quickly. The other options are also promising and yet they do have their limitations. Carrick can easily slot as a playmaker but he is painfully slow. Fletcher is a jack of all trades, master of none, altough he had improved tremendously while good old Scholes and Giggs have the talent but may lack of stamina.
The solution is far from simple. Bringing in new players will mean dooming some of our promising one to the bench. Not bringing in new players may mean not having the quality midfield needed for this system to work at the highest levels.
Ronaldo was not only central in our system by providing creativity to the side but he was also our main goalscorer. So with him gone the wisest decision that can be taken is to revert to the 4 - 4 - 2 system which is simpler to understand and allows us two permanent strikers to share the workload. The problem is central midfield. Do we have that quality defensive midfielder capable of adding the steel needed in a 4 men midfield? Do we have that creative playmaker capable not only to dictate our game but also to score goals?
Both questions can be answered with a maybe. We do have a quality defensive midfielder in Hargreaves and we do have a very promising playmaker in Anderson. Unfortunately we also know their weaknesses. One is injury prone, the other one is still young and tend to go in headless chicken mode far too quickly. The other options are also promising and yet they do have their limitations. Carrick can easily slot as a playmaker but he is painfully slow. Fletcher is a jack of all trades, master of none, altough he had improved tremendously while good old Scholes and Giggs have the talent but may lack of stamina.
The solution is far from simple. Bringing in new players will mean dooming some of our promising one to the bench. Not bringing in new players may mean not having the quality midfield needed for this system to work at the highest levels.
Ah cheers i didnt know, i wont bother then!
That's one of the things I meant by "He's Owen Hargreaves." It's an overdetermined phrase.
pete said:
Scholesy's done, I reckon. We're more likely to get a year out of Giggsy, who won't keep the ball as well but will make space and open up the odd defence.
Not seen much of him last season but was always impressed with Veloso. The fact that he is available and clubs are not exactly queueing him suggests that he probably isn't the answer, but whenever I saw him his passing range was very impressive.
I took some trouble to have a look at him since we needed a Flamini replacement and he was linked. I thought he was barely PL standard.
I'm surprised you're surprised, if you have even a passing familiarity with the mongos hanging out in this place
It's not about top-class, it's about creativity. Fletcher and Carrick are top-class at the job they are doing and brilliant in their own right. But they don't exactly epitomize creativity. We didn't need creative midfielders in the last few years and it will be interesting to see if we need ones this year.
Plech's post is pretty much spot on - although I think we'd still be challenging for the title.
I'd agree with a lot of that except:
- in the 4231 the CMs while staying deep did a bit more that just win the ball and feed the front four
- I can't see you playing 442/4411 - no one does any more since they get caned in CM (OK you did last year sometimes)
I think you've got a big problem since without Ronaldo the focus will move back to CM and you've only got Carrick as a proven performer due to injuries, aging and youth.
If Berbatov and Rooney step up to the plate we won't lack for creativity. They an both like to drop deep and when they're on the ball they're arguably the most creative "strikers" in the league.
Whatever variant of 442 we play, it's not gonna be the same as the days of Yorke and Cole. So long as Rooney or Berbatov is on the pitch one or other of them should be able to provide the vision and creativity we're losing as Scholes gets older.
I'm not sure why this thread is filled with so much negativity.