Danny Welbeck

[Rowem]

Its not specualtive, its based on the performances of promoted sides in previous years and the assesments of managers themselves. Not for nothing do managers say that there is a large gap between the prem and the championship. Not for nothing do managers say that there is a large gap between the prem and the championship.

Urm, you've taken a comment about speculating on the mental impact of playing for a struggling side to mean speculating about that team's performance.

Its far more speculative to say that Blackpool might play "good football"

No. (plus I added the speech marks myself)

and suprise a few teams

I never suggested that.

than it is to say they will struggle to create chances and

Wrong.

go on long losing streaks.

Correct (see point one)

Thats not to say they won't suprise everybody but when you are talking about sending a future talent there then beleive me as a manager you don't want to be betting on long odd where easier odds are availible. He could play week in week out for Blackburn or Bolton as he is good enough and they are proven prem class. Why would we send him to Blackpool without exploring these options first.

As I pointed out in a previous post, Burnley last season scored more goals than several better sides. The best side to send a player to is not simply the better team.

As for struggling being a character building exercise, there is struggle - which he would do most weeks with blackburn or Bolton and then there is getting hammered - which is the treatment he is highly likely to receive most weeks with Blackpool. One of these experiances is character buliding the other is demoralising, i'd credit you with knowing which is which.

They're both character building. Anyway, it doesn't really matter to Danny how many goals fly past the Blackpool keeper. if Blackpool lost 4-1 and Danny got himself a classy goal then I (and I expect Danny) would be fairly pleased.

Blackpool play at nowhere near a similar level to Blackburn, Stoke, Wigan, Fulham or Birmingham(due mainly to their cash injection and better cash reserves) thats absolute rubbish i'm afraid. You are talking about sides who have proven themselves to be upto premiership standards and just about held their own to stay in the division. Blackpool are a club that have never ever played in the prem division. What could you possibly be basing your assesment on? Speculation perhaps

Where on earth have I said they play at the level of those teams?

The only comparison I have made is between Blackpool and Burnley.

I don't know how I could have possibly been clearer about this.

The simple fact is it is no slight on the characters in their dressing room to suggest that they might not have characters who are strong enough personalities to be successful premiership players. Even Holloway himself questioned that during their most recent pre-season friendly. Yes it could have been kidology but i'm sure even if it was it had a hint of truth about it. They are a very young side and it takes a certain amount of experiance to cope with a 5-10 game losing streaks without dropping your head or going into your shell. Thats of course not certain to happen but its a possiblity as its not unheard of for a promoted side to experiance this

The logic here is that is damaging for a young player to be in a team with low morale. Again, I'll point out that this could be a character building experience.

Although a loan player wouldn't likely admit it, they're main objective whilst out on loan is to play well themselves - not to keep their loan club up. If Blackpool finished rock bottom but Danny scored 8 goals and got a similar number of assists I'm sure he'd come back to OT feeling pretty delighted.

 

[Rowem]

I think strikers playing for really poor teams often get very isolated during games and have a pretty depressing job. It can hurt confidence. It would be a valid test, but probably not the right one for a 19 year old player.

To be honest I think Welbeck would mostly play on the wing at Blackpool, as you said.

You seem to think that Blackpool will ship goals but will still play some decent stuff and he'd see plenty of the ball. I don't know for sure, but I can't see that happening with their current squad. I would argue that they will really struggle to make an impact in the majority of their games, and that playing for them will be no fun at all. I can't see them being nearly as good as Portsmouth were last season, yet I look at a player like Picquionne for example who isn't all that bad but can't have enjoyed last season very much, despite playing many games. He was feeding off scraps, and that's with a team with at least some premiership standard players. Blackpool have Adam who looks quite good but hasn't played in the prem yet. Who else?

Very rarely does a team get crushed in the league other than against the top teams. If you looked at the stats for possession, territory and goalscoring opportunities for the teams who got relegated last season I'm sure that they were not far out done by the midtable teams.

Even the Derby and Sunderland teams from a few years ago were not completely mismatched. However they missed too many opportunities and conceded too many soft goals. Watford is another example - they were dire but Ashley Young proved himself to be PL quality. You mention Piquionne - he missed feck loads of chances last season. They also had Dindane who got 8 league goals in 19 appearances. There is certainly room for an attacking player to make an impression at such a club. Steven Fletcher at Burnley was very impressive also.

 

[The White Pele]

He won't get the headlines for tonight, but Welbeck was excellent again tonight I thought. He has been consistently good all tour. I know it's only pre-season but there seems to be a significant improvement in his play from his showings last season. Is he ready to be a part of the squad?

 

[Claymore]

He won't get the headlines for tonight, but Welbeck was excellent again tonight I thought. He has been consistently good all tour. I know it's only pre-season but there seems to be a significant improvement in his play from his showings last season. Is he ready to be a part of the squad?

Agree, he's been one of our best players over the tour.

 

[samabachan]

Do people still think he has a shit first touch?

 

[BAMSOLA]

He's could be a very important player for us who we should consider keeping.

Certainly already too good for the likes of Blackpool.

 

[Escobar]

As I said in the Cleverley thread, if our youngsters go out on loan, it should only be to PL clubs where they get games. For other leagues, they are just too good

 

[jojojo]

Players that we keep loaning forever usually end up being sold, I think it'll be the same with Welbeck if we loan him this season - someone will come up with a bid next year and he will be gone. If Ferguson doesn't give him a chance this season, I reckon that will be it for him.

It depends why we're loaning them out. Sometimes they're in the shop window in preparation for a sale - like Campbell and Simpson. Sometimes they need full games to develop and realistically can't get that with us.

Welbeck seems to have been slowed down development wise by the fact he is/was still growing. He hasn't been physically ready to play regularly in the league, but mentally he's probably desperate to play. If he can go somewhere and get 20 games that's probably going to help him more than getting half a dozen with us.

Of course, I remain incurably optimistic about Welbeck. I want him to get a couple in the charity shield and SAF to declare him unloanable - but you can't always get what you want straight away.

 

[Red_Aaron]

i know its already been mentioned in this thread but he looked 'kin huge last night, its the first preseason game i've seen this year so really the first time i've seen him since he went on loan to Preston and he looks twice the size!

He's gonna be a monster of a bloke and potentially a monster of a player too. He'll stay fit and get lots of game time this year i hope

 

[Top]

He's looked amazing this pre-season.
He's the player who has impressed me the most, despite having not played that much. It seems like he's improved every part of his game over the summer. He seems faster, stronger, smarter and better on the ball.

Granted, it's only pre-season, and he's come on late in games where the opponents are tired and have made many changes, but people who had already written him off because of some poor touches last season, really ought to have a re-think.

Very exciting player. Not just for us, but England as well.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He's looked amazing this pre-season.
He's the player who has impressed me the most, despite having not played that much. It seems like he's improved every part of his game over the summer. He seems faster, stronger, smarter and better on the ball.

Granted, it's only pre-season, and he's come on late in games where the opponents are tired and have made many changes, but people who had already written him off because of some poor touches last season, really ought to have a re-think.

Very exciting player. Not just for us, but England as well.

Agree completely but would add that he was also excellent in the game he started (can't remember who it was against, the Philly Goblins, the Oakland Elves or somesuch)

 

[horselesspaul]

Do people still think he has a shit first touch?

Hahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[BAMSOLA]

i know its already been mentioned in this thread but he looked 'kin huge last night, its the first preseason game i've seen this year so really the first time i've seen him since he went on loan to Preston and he looks twice the size!

He's gonna be a monster of a bloke and potentially a monster of a player too. He'll stay fit and get lots of game time this year i hope

Yeah I was saying this earlier to a poster who doubted his strength. The amazing thing is he is still growing I beleive and I really wasn't expecting him to look so comfortable in his body at this age. Add to this the muscle he's put on, the technical ability on him and intelligence with which he seems to use the ball and we have a truly awesome prospect on our hands.

Could be an exceptional player in years to come if he gets the right breaks and plays it right.

 

[Escobar]

Him and Cleverly could very well be in the England team in 2012

 

[Striker10]

I was thinking how he's reminded a lot of folk what a talent he could be (me inc). He's been a major plus for us on this trip. He's not looked leggy and he's impressed in all his outtings. He's been unlucky not to grab himself another goal or two but this kid will be a good United player. When he puts it all together, he will be a very good united player.

These games are only pre season games but they're producing moments of quality. Dannys got a great touch and his weight of pass for obertans goal was quality.

 

[Raven Blade]

I saw glimpses of Thierry Henry in him last night.

The touch, the way he moved and the sudden burst of acceleration. He's looking very good this pre-season and if he's going out on loan it had better be to a Premier League club that will trust him. We definitely need to get him more experience of regular football to bring him further along with his progress. You can see the type of striker he is developing into now, and it's impressive.

 

[MacMUFC]

Him and Cleverly could very well be in the England team in 2012

Now you're pushing it, lets not get ahead of ourselves now. I'm not ruling it out or anything, but thats very optimistic so I really doubt it. Besides, I think Daniel Sturridge will be ahead of Welbeck by that time anyway, that kid is extremely talented.

On a side note, i've been really impressed by Cleverley's determination and hunger. Not his ability to pass, his goals, shots, no, I like his attitude and thats what has impressed me most. The kid works extremely hard and looks to change a game. When I played football, scouts and coaches always used to tell me that I had to work hard and stand out in matches to get my chance. Cleverley is the same, his work rate and determination to change a game stands out for me and that is an invaluable quality. He really could go far.

 

[KingEric7]

If Hernandez is Owen-ish like hundreds of posters are saying, then I'd agree that Welbeck is certainly reminiscent of Henry in terms of his dribbling style. It's hilarious how he just sort of glides effortlessly past the opposition.

 

[BAMSOLA]

Now you're pushing it, lets not get ahead of ourselves now. I'm not ruling it out or anything, but thats very optimistic so I really doubt it. Besides, I think Daniel Sturridge will be ahead of Welbeck by that time anyway, that kid is extremely talented.

Not sure they are competing for the same spot in a team as Danny can just as easily play RW/FWR. As for being more talented i'm not so sure about that either. Sturridge is a good young player but looks to me to be simply a better version of Carlton Cole in that he is big strong and mobile with good technical abilty + finishing and the abilty to run behind a defence or play with his back to goal but I wonder whether he is anything special or just the latest in a long line of English style target men with pace.

Welbeck is a type of player that england simply don't often produce as a true forward. He can create as well as play central striking roles and as such I feel he is a more promising player. I could be wrong as i've obviously seen more of Danny than I have of Sturridge but i've never though he was anything out of the ordinary as far as production of British talent goes. Danny I think is far more talented technically and in that respect is quite an unusual type of English player. I wouldn't say he will be there at 2012 but I also wouldn't rule him out as England have very few players like him.

The game is also leaning more towards central forwards than out and out strikers which also works in his favour.

 

[SecondFig]

Now you're pushing it, lets not get ahead of ourselves now. I'm not ruling it out or anything, but thats very optimistic so I really doubt it. Besides, I think Daniel Sturridge will be ahead of Welbeck by that time anyway, that kid is extremely talented.

On a side note, i've been really impressed by Cleverley's determination and hunger. Not his ability to pass, his goals, shots, no, I like his attitude and thats what has impressed me most. The kid works extremely hard and looks to change a game. When I played football, scouts and coaches always used to tell me that I had to work hard and stand out in matches to get my chance. Cleverley is the same, his work rate and determination to change a game stands out for me and that is an invaluable quality. He really could go far.

Always been a bit unsure about Sturridge. He's one of those young england players who might be very promising, but it's difficult to tell because his physical size, strength and speed have always made him stand out - the time to tell will be when he starts playing reasonably regularly against other mature footballers, instead of against other teenage kids who are several years behind him physically.

 

[sajeev]

Now you're pushing it, lets not get ahead of ourselves now. I'm not ruling it out or anything, but thats very optimistic so I really doubt it. Besides, I think Daniel Sturridge will be ahead of Welbeck by that time anyway, that kid is extremely talented.

not a good comparison to make, as others have already pointed out.
and i think you will pretty surprised (pleasantly i hope)

 

[MacMUFC]

Not sure they are competing for the same spot in a team as Danny can just as easily play RW/FWR. As for being more talented i'm not so sure about that either. Sturridge is a good young player but looks to me to be simply a better version of Carlton Cole in that he is big strong and mobile with good technical abilty + finishing and the abilty to run behind a defence or play with his back to goal but I wonder whether he is anything special or just the latest in a long line of English style target men with pace.

Welbeck is a type of player that england simply don't often produce as a true forward. He can create as well as play central striking roles and as such I feel he is a more promising player. I could be wrong as i've obviously seen more of Danny than I have of Sturridge but i've never though he was anything out of the ordinary as far as production of British talent goes. Danny I think is far more talented technically and in that respect is quite an unusual type of English player. I wouldn't say he will be there at 2012 but I also wouldn't rule him out as England have very few players like him.

The game is also leaning more towards central forwards than out and out strikers which also works in his favour.

Always been a bit unsure about Sturridge. He's one of those young england players who might be very promising, but it's difficult to tell because his physical size, strength and speed have always made him stand out - the time to tell will be when he starts playing reasonably regularly against other mature footballers, instead of against other teenage kids who are several years behind him physically.

not a good comparison to make, as others have already pointed out.
and i think you will pretty surprised (pleasantly i hope)

All fair points, maybe youre right. I'm only basing it on the progression rate of the players and assuming that - if the progression rate continues as it is - then Sturridge will still be ahead of him (as I believe he is now). He also has his age as an advantage over Welbeck as he is 1 or 2 years older than him. However, I never said he will turn about to be a better player altogether.

In response to 'big, pacy forward': I think Sturridge is a little different to that. He has those attributes yes, but I think its unfair to throw him in the same box with the likes of Heskey and Carlton Cole. He's more similar to Darren Bent if anything and he'll probably get to around the same level as him. What sets him apart from the likes of Heskey - based on what we've seen in his career so far - is that he's an instinctive striker and he's only 20-21 years old, so I think its incredibly harsh to call him another Heskey or Carlton Cole.

What I like about Welbeck is that as one of you has mentioned, he creates as well as scores goals and this is an invaluable asset to have if you're a striker, its what will set you apart from your run-of-the-mill Premiership forwards that will get you 8-12 goals a season.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Welbeck and Sturridge could complement each other very well as a strike partnership.

Come to think of it, if they both develop as hoped a front three of Rooney, Welbeck and Sturridge would be very tasty indeed.

 

[SecondFig]

SAF quote on Danny going on loan, from a piece in today's Mirror:

"Hernandez and Macheda give us the back-up we're going to need. We've got a decision on whether to let Danny Welbeck and Mame Biram Diouf go out on loan, although I'm starting to think about it again. If you add them to the other two young strikers, we're very healthy in that respect.

"I need to keep Macheda and I need to keep Hernandez, who has just joined the club. That's imperative. There's purpose in the way they play their football. It's not just talent. You don't play at this club with just talent, you need something else and they have that something else.

 

[Scholesy]

Why is Macheda Fergie's pet. Send him on loan.

 

[Trigg]

Why is Macheda Fergie's pet. Send him on loan.

We get it. You hate Kiko.

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Why is Macheda Fergie's pet. Send him on loan.

Im sure SAF is thinking....Scholesy on redcafe.net hates Macheda...let me keep him to wind him up some more.

Or....he's actually good and you're being a gimp.

 

[x42bn6]

Why is Macheda Fergie's pet. Send him on loan.

 

[VoetbalWizard]

Why is Macheda Fergie's pet. Send him on loan.

because at the end of the day, macheda has bigger bollocks bar wayne rooney in our striker stable and SAF knows what that brings to a team in terms of options. the only thing on kiko's mind is goals and you need that from a couple of lads on your team. If he wasn't injured for swaths of the season last year, he would've featured more in the first team. I hope he features a lot this coming year. Hope it is a 'breakout' season for the lad.

 

[MacMUFC]

In fairness to Scholesy, if you gave me the choice of keeping either Macheda or Welbeck, i'd probably go with the latter.

However, I think SAF's thinking is that Macheda is more likely to get you a goal, whilst he doesnt play too many games, I dunno... it'd be interesting to see who he thinks will develop into a better player.

 

[Scholesy]

because at the end of the day, macheda has bigger bollocks bar wayne rooney in our striker stable and SAF knows what that brings to a team in terms of options. the only thing on kiko's mind is goals and you need that from a couple of lads on your team. If he wasn't injured for swaths of the season last year, he would've featured more in the first team. I hope he features a lot this coming year. Hope it is a 'breakout' season for the lad.

He is too limited. He struggles to keep the ball. He provides zero creativity. He can only finish. The thing is that when he scores goals, it will vanish all criticism and people will continue their hype. It is a similar case to Gibson.

 

[VoetbalWizard]

He is too limited. He struggles to keep the ball. He provides zero creativity. He can only finish. The thing is that when he scores goals, it will vanish all criticism and people will continue their hype. It is a similar case to Gibson.

false. because in gibson's position it is more imperative that he brings more to the team in terms of build up. It is ok to have one or two poachers up top when you need to grab a goal.

Since he was brought up after scoring the hattrick vs. newcastle in the reserves, fergie has been talking about how macheda's mentality is outstanding and separates him for others. At any level of competitive football, it is a huge bonus to have a player like macheda in the squad. it is a very reassuring thing. I hope he kicks on this season and when owen/berba leave in the next couple of seasons that he has developed enough to get major playing time. I don't see him ever being loaned out by fergie.

 

[datura]

I'm just hoping the goals will settle him a bit this preseason as he's been a little greedy and his hold-up play sub par as he seems to almost be trying too hard to make a positive impression, especially with the addition of Hernandez.

 

[Red_Aaron]

In fairness to Scholesy, if you gave me the choice of keeping either Macheda or Welbeck, i'd probably go with the latter.

However, I think SAF's thinking is that Macheda is more likely to get you a goal, whilst he doesnt play too many games, I dunno... it'd be interesting to see who he thinks will develop into a better player.

i think this is probably right.

Welbeck is a better player all round imo but he also looks like he'd benefit most from a run of games to get fully into his stride, then we'd see the best of him.

Kiko, on the other hand, i reckon you could drop in anytime completely cold and he'd still be full of focus and confidence even if he'd not played for months. he's got that steely determination about him no matter the circumstance

 

[The White Pele]

It does sound as if he will go out on loan, though I wonder if his performances on this tour are making Fergie reconsider. With Macheda and Hernandez definitely staying it doesn't exactly leave room so if he does stay this season it may be as a winger, despite the fact we're fairly well stacked there aswell. I could see him being effective on the left of a front 3.

If he goes on loan I would hope it would be to a lower Premier League club where he could get games. Maybe Newcastle would be suitable (what strikers do they have, other than Caroll?). If Cleverley goes out aswell it would be nice to have them in the same team

 

[championo]

He's looked amazing this pre-season.
He's the player who has impressed me the most, despite having not played that much. It seems like he's improved every part of his game over the summer. He seems faster, stronger, smarter and better on the ball.

Granted, it's only pre-season, and he's come on late in games where the opponents are tired and have made many changes, but people who had already written him off because of some poor touches last season, really ought to have a re-think.

Very exciting player. Not just for us, but England as well.

Well noted. He is the player I want to see more. Some of his movement looks so much like the finished article, almost Henry like. I am really in the balance when it comes to loan or no loan. I don't know which will be better. You could tell he was skillful, but now his close control excellent and to think he can still improve. We have a player people, we have a player.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

SAF quote on Danny going on loan, from a piece in today's Mirror:

Interesting. Welbeck might have played his way into Fergie's plans.

He's got some tricky decisions ahead. Personally, I kind of wish we could hold onto Welbeck and Macheda, with Owen making way. That would be very risky though.

 

[The White Pele]

There was a moment last night when he just seemed to glide in from the left, and evaded a couple of challenges where in the past he may have been shrugged off the ball, and then when it opened up he had the maturity to slide in Cleverley rather than take the shot. The improvement is definitely there

 

[Joga_Bonito]

Why is Macheda Fergie's pet. Send him on loan.

He's not. There's a reason why Sir Alex is eager to send the British young players on loan and not the foreign players, likely to do with how English clubs have treated the two in the past.

That obviously doesn't mean that it would happen again, but I can completely understand the thinking behind it. Sir Alex has asked these players to move country at a young age and sign for us, and he may simply believe that it is unfair to then send them all over what is still a foreign land and expect them to "get on with it", often with little help from the club that they are loaned to. Many of those players are still settling in to this country as it is, even if they have been here for 2-3 years, so it's better to keep them at the club and allow that process to fully develop.

It's different with British youngsters for a variety of reasons, but mainly because they are familiar with the culture, they have all of their family fairly close to them, and the club that they are loaned to will probably have a better idea of how to use them than with foreign player.

 

[comlag]

He is too limited. He struggles to keep the ball. He provides zero creativity. He can only finish. The thing is that when he scores goals, it will vanish all criticism and people will continue their hype. It is a similar case to Gibson.

You're an idiot. Whose hype? Straight from SAF's mouth you gimp:

"I need to keep Macheda and I need to keep Hernandez, who has just joined the club. That's imperative. There's purpose in the way they play their football. It's not just talent. You don't play at this club with just talent, you need something else and they have that something else.