England Discussion | Finish 4th

Colombia is our first real test. So far we've beaten the equivalent of a Championship team, with a last second goal, and a pub team - to whom we contrived to concede a goal.

We've yet to see what level this England team is at, we'll know more come Tuesday.
 
I'm a lot more fearful of Colombia than Japan, but I think it was probably a blessing that we lost to Belgium. Having momentum going into the knockouts would have been nice, but now we get an extra day's rest, we've given our squad options a run-out so they won't be so rusty if called upon, and we don't have to travel so far for the next match.

That said, I'm still not confident of beating Colombia.
 
If we lose to Colombia this goes down as another typical England shambles. We'll have edged past Tunisia and had one good half against the worst team in the competition.

A lot of pressure on us now suddenly, and we don't usually like that.
 
RedSky said:
We have a great chance to reach the final tbh.

Croatia vs Spain is the likely quarter final and that will be a very tough game which will hopefully leave the winner somewhat fatigued ready for the semi final clash. We have to beat Colombia followed by one of Switzerland/Sweden. These are teams that we should really be beating without any hardship (yes we are England and we have the ability to feck up a simple task). But we should really comfortably reach the Semis and have a fairly decent chance at reaching the final and at that point its a coin flip.
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The last time England has defeated a decent side in a KO round of a tournament is Spain (on penalties) in 1996, bear that in mind.

I have Colombia as favorites if James is fully fit. Otherwise, it should be a 50-50 match. Pekerman might be the best coach in the world cup, and they have been playing together for the last 6 years. Falcao, Cuadrado and James is as a good attacking unit as any in this world cup, and Colombia are comfortable at keeping the ball.

England might win, but it will be a hard fight. Nowhere near the easy job a lot of English posters (like you) are making it.
 
The way the press are going on about yesterday is pathetic. It was a nothing game. They've lost their momentum apparently now - no wonder you never fecking win anything.. If playing your B team against one of the strongest teams at the world cup and losing 1-0 to a good goal can stop all momentum and positivity then they should just go home now. It was effectively just a day off for the squad. If United play and lose with a youth 11 in the League cup it doesn't mean Lukaku, Sanchez and Pogba walk out in the next EPL game all nervous and unsure of themselves... It's mental.

There's pressure regardless - it's the world cup - you have to beat who you have to beat. England should expect to beat Colombia - they're not all that good. Grow up for fecks sake.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
We're constantly told we're shite and irrelevant and yet everyone on here is desperate for us to lose.

You can hate our media if you want, I don't like them either, but it's very frustrating to see so much anti England sentiment. Especially on a forum dedicated to an English football club.
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A bit like Liverpool then. The cockiness and we're going to win it, after defeating the mighty Panama. Then the inevitable fallout. It is pretty enjoyable if you're not English (same as it is enjoyable to see Liverpool crash after 'next year is our year').
 
My take is that we should have played a stronger side and gone for the win. I would have preferred the momentum and good feeling.

I think both sides played the exact same approach, in that the key motivation was to rest all starting outfield players and give the squad players a chance to impress. Neither side played to lose but the result wasn't all that important. There were perhaps equal positives and negatives for winning the group and coming second.

As it was Belgium B were better than England B in key areas, namely midfield. The England side didn't really have the right balance for the system with Rashford and Vardy looking to do the same things a lot of the time. When crosses went in it was easy for Belgium's defenders against Vardy who prefers the ball in front of him on the ground. I can't really say that any England B players put themselves in the managers thoughts. Unfortunately Rashford completely fluffed the best chance of the match. Only Harry Maguire when he came on looked good. He played a great pass to Vardy to start the Rashford chance, stepped out well and put a lid on Januzaj using his size and strength (something Danny Rose failed to do).

Colombia will be very tough sans James or not. England have poor form in games like these and Colombia will be more used to playing in such conditions. I really don't know how the game will go.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I think both sides played the exact same approach, in that the key motivation was to rest all starting outfield players and give the squad players a chance to impress. Neither side played to lose but the result wasn't all that important. There were perhaps equal positives and negatives for winning the group and coming second.
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This is what I felt too. Both played their B teams but tried to win the game.

Like you said, there are pros and cons ending up either side. Media shouldn't blame the team or coach if they are out against Colombia.
 
Revan said:
A bit like Liverpool then. The cockiness and we're going to win it, after defeating the mighty Panama. Then the inevitable fallout. It is pretty enjoyable if you're not English (same as it is enjoyable to see Liverpool crash after 'next year is our year').
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When did this happen then?
 
Judas said:
It genuinely seems like people have purposefully mistaken English happiness for cockiness, along with ironic talk about it coming home.
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Yeah seems that way, almost everyone I know, myself included, doesn’t really think we are going to win but it’s nice to enjoy ourselves for once. If you can’t get excited for the World Cup what’s the point?

It is coming home though.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
When did this happen then?
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Look at this thread how England is favorite against Colombia or RedSky (a really reasonable poster) talking already about the final. Or the newspaper that had 'the road to final' headline.

All of this after defeating Tunisia in stoppage time and humiliating the mighty Panama.
 
Revan said:
A bit like Liverpool then. The cockiness and we're going to win it, after defeating the mighty Panama. Then the inevitable fallout. It is pretty enjoyable if you're not English (same as it is enjoyable to see Liverpool crash after 'next year is our year').
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The “cockiness and we’re going to win it” is a figment of people’s imagination though. I don’t know anyone who seriously thinks England will win the WC. Nearly everyone (including our much derided media) considers Colombia a tricky tie. If we beat Colombia, then all that can be said is that Sweden/Switzerland is an easier opponent in the QFs than Brazil. To argue otherwise is a bit like saying you’d rather play Real Madrid than Roma or Spurs. As for last night, maybe Southgate was simply taking advantage of a dead rubber to give squad players a taste of the WC (and avoid the misery he experienced as an unused player in 2002).
 
The media put out cocky headlines which grab attention, as that's the point of headlines. None of them believe we'll win it, and any of them saying we will are simply talking us up so it'll be better when we blow it and can be taken apart.
 
MoskvaRed said:
The “cockiness and we’re going to win it” is a figment of people’s imagination though. I don’t know anyone who seriously thinks England will win the WC. Nearly everyone (including our much derided media) considers Colombia a tricky tie. If we beat Colombia, then all that can be said is that Sweden/Switzerland is an easier opponent in the QFs than Brazil. To argue otherwise is a bit like saying you’d rather play Real Madrid than Roma or Spurs. As for last night, maybe Southgate was simply taking advantage of a dead rubber to give squad players a taste of the WC (and avoid the misery he experienced as an unused player in 2002).
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There are people who are already mentioning reaching finals, or that the road to semis is relatively easy (which isn't, England hasn't won a KO tie since 2006, and hasn't won 2 KO ties in a row, since 1990), and people are seriously underrating Colombia, who have a better attack, central defense, keeper and manager than England.
 
K2K said:
And I've watched England at major tournaments for years.


There's a reason they haven't won a knockout game in 12 years. They would be well warned to take this Colombian threat seriously.
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As have I, and fully agreed. If they don't, they'll lose, bar a Colombian meltdown.
 
Revan said:
Look at this thread how England is favorite against Colombia or RedSky (a really reasonable poster) talking already about the final. Or the newspaper that had 'the road to final' headline.

All of this after defeating Tunisia in stoppage time and humiliating the mighty Panama.
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It isn't unreasonable to have England as favourites against Colombia, just as it isn't unreasonable to have Colombia as the favourites. Its 50/50 for me.

Admittedly @RedSky seems to be on something.

The headline in the Mirror is actually '2nd's Best, England to face Colombia on 'easier' side of draw after loss'.

The back page isn't saying England are going to get to the final, simply reflecting on the nature of the game and how the possible routes from the result were the only note of intrigue. That is how I interpret it anyway.

Fridge chutney said:
As have I, and fully agreed. If they don't, they'll lose, bar a Colombian meltdown.
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Do you really watch that much Colombian football?
 
Revan said:
people are seriously underrating Colombia, who have a better attack, central defense, keeper and manager than England.
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Surely they have a better midfield than England too? Or do they not bother playing with one either?
 
Judas said:
If we lose to Colombia this goes down as another typical England shambles. We'll have edged past Tunisia and had one good half against the worst team in the competition.

A lot of pressure on us now suddenly, and we don't usually like that.
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Yep. Now there will be that dreadful thing - 'Expectation'

Had he gone for broke and beaten Belgium with his best side then they would have probably kicked on and done Japan handsomely. 4 wins out of 4, Kane probably smashing the Golden Boot.

They would have gone to the quarters a) full of confidence and b) with absolutely zero expectation on them to beat Brazil (if indeed it was Brazil).

This for me would have been a far better scenario.


Now the press will take the attitude that, having deliberately played the 'clever strategy', they will be 'expected' to progress.

They'll start ramping up the all the crappy jingoisms just like in past tournaments.

Southgate will be slaughtered if they lose.

Instead of a potential death or glory nothing-to-lose game against Brazil any future matches in this competition will all be deemed potential 'banana skins'. Which creates more pressure.


Rearrange into a well known sentence - His Own Back For Made, He's A Rod.
 
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Dundrummer said:
Surely they have a better midfield than England too? Or do they not bother playing with one either?
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Their midfield is not good, same for their wing/full backs. England has an advantage there, though England aren't that great in those departments too (just that Colombia are worse).
 
Revan said:
Their midfield is not good, same for their wing/full backs. England has an advantage there, though England aren't that great in those departments too (just that Colombia are worse).
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Its completely debatable that Colombia's defence and attack are better than England's anyway. How are you working that out exactly?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
It isn't unreasonable to have England as favourites against Colombia, just as it isn't unreasonable to have Colombia as the favourites. Its 50/50 for me.

Admittedly @RedSky seems to be on something.

The headline in the Mirror is actually '2nd's Best, England to face Colombia on 'easier' side of draw after loss'.

The back page isn't saying England are going to get to the final, simply reflecting on the nature of the game and how the possible routes from the result were the only note of intrigue. That is how I interpret it anyway.
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Call me crazy, but I find it pretty hilarious people to think what will happen 3 matches ahead (implicating that England will win 2 KO ties) despite that they have won 2 KO ties combined this century and the last time they won 2 KO times in a row is 28 years ago. People were talking about the match with Sweden in the last few pages, like Colombia is an easy job. If that isn't cockiness, I don't know what it is.
 
SpyLuke10 said:
If you watched the game against Panama Belgium looked pretty shit.
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They won easily despite looking laboured. They actually looked better than England did against Panama, they just didn't score 6 goals from 3 chances. They've looked much better than England. I don't think it's really up for debate if you don't have tinted specs on.

Tunisia is the biggest test England have had so far, and that was hardly a test, and it took an injury time goal to win it. A bit of optimism fair enough but reality seems to have flown out the window as usual.

England will have to be a lot better than they have been to beat Columbia. They'll need the performance level in the first half against Tunisia, and if they don't change the system will still struggle to get the ball away from their own centre backs.
 
Revan said:
There are people who are already mentioning reaching finals, or that the road to semis is relatively easy (which isn't, England hasn't won a KO tie since 2006, and hasn't won 2 KO ties in a row, since 1990), and people are seriously underrating Colombia, who have a better attack, central defense, keeper and manager than England.
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Well, among 60m people, you will get a few who talk rubbish. But, for every England fan getting giddy, there is always the counterpoint of a non-England fan (usually Scottish or Irish) building up England’s opponents to unjustified levels. Just 10 days ago, Poland were being talked of on here as the team to knock England out. As for the real Colombia, they look a dangerous side but, like England, cannot truly be judged yet due to the poor quality of the teams they have faced.
 
Revan said:
People were talking about the match with Sweden in the last few pages, like Colombia is an easy job. If that isn't cockiness, I don't know what it is.
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Why isn't it worth talking about which team you would face after you might win a winable 50/50 matchup?

Getting 'just' Switzerland/Sweden instead of a usual powerhouse is not the norm in the WC QF. Doesn't mean England is gonna make it, those teams are actually worse than the big name or that it's going to be an easy game ofc.
 
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Sorry if it's been addressed before but IF we beat Colombia then what day and UK time do we have.a quarter final?

Also, how did we play last night? Was stuck in traffic during the game :mad:

My mates said we were decent? But standard reports from media say we looked 2nd best and weren't good etc.
 
Colombia’s performance v Poland is arguably the best all-round, sustained performance in the whole tournament.

They are a really good side.
 
Revan said:
Call me crazy, but I find it pretty hilarious people to think what will happen 3 matches ahead (implicating that England will win 2 KO ties) despite that they have won 2 KO ties combined this century and the last time they won 2 KO times in a row is 28 years ago. People were talking about the match with Sweden in the last few pages, like Colombia is an easy job. If that isn't cockiness, I don't know what it is.
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Get over yourself. Do you not think other countries look at what possible route they will have and debate what will happen in those hypothetical situations, really?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Get over yourself. Do you not think other countries look at what possible route they will have and debate what will happen in those hypothetical situations, really?
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I think that those who usually win these types of things, take one match at a time.
 
Colombia will be happier to face England rather than Belgium, that much is absolutely certain. They are the real winners here. Southgate can dress it up any way he wants but these English players will be shitting themselves come Tuesday with the weight of expectation on them. They’d have been better off going into the perceived ‘tough’ half of the draw and going into games as underdogs (bar Japan, but if you have aspirations of progressing far in any tournament, you have to be beating teams like Japan).
 
Buchan said:
Colombia will be happier to face England rather than Belgium, that much is absolutely certain. They are the real winners here. Southgate can dress it up any way he wants but these English players will be shitting themselves come Tuesday with the weight of expectation on them. They’d have been better off going into the perceived ‘tough’ half of the draw and going into games as underdogs (bar Japan, but if you have aspirations of progressing far in any tournament, you have to be beating teams like Japan).
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One thing I'm quite sure on is that the players won't be shitting at the prospect of Colombia. England have stronger players all round the park with the exception of the 10.

They have broadly been more convincing and cohesive too. Its so bizzare to claim they'd be bricking it from fecking Colombia of all teams.
 
Buchan said:
Colombia will be happier to face England rather than Belgium, that much is absolutely certain. They are the real winners here. Southgate can dress it up any way he wants but these English players will be shitting themselves come Tuesday with the weight of expectation on them. They’d have been better off going into the perceived ‘tough’ half of the draw and going into games as underdogs (bar Japan, but if you have aspirations of progressing far in any tournament, you have to be beating teams like Japan).
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Are you one of these 'Republik of Mancunia' folks, aN English United fan that hates the NT?
 
Prometheus said:
England might get humbled with all this cockiness!
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It's not cockiness! Why do people keep saying this. It's literally the exact opposite of cockiness. We know we're not very good and that we'll be knocked out if we come up against someone who is very good, so we're pleased to have fallen on the easier side of the draw.

Judas said:
It genuinely seems like people have purposefully mistaken English happiness for cockiness, along with ironic talk about it coming home.
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This.

K2K said:
There's a reason they haven't won a knockout game in 12 years. They would be well warned to take this Colombian threat seriously.
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Which they will. We're no where near good enough to go into the Colombia game thinking we can cruise through it in second gear. I'm sure Southgate and the players are well aware of our terrible record in these games.
 
In fairness there is so much embarrassing content from the media talking about us going or not going all the way. And then talking about historical stats and comparisons to 1966.

But the media shouldn't be likened to actual England fans. The fans have every right to be pleased with the brand of football and convincing performances tbh. Especially when the big name countries are so underwhelming - why shouldn't we believe we have a chance?
 
I just don't get this 'easier route to the final' mentality. Not one bit. Why do the media and (some) of the fans always set up England to fail? You guys have a young, likeable, exciting team that could have gone into big games in this world cup with no pressure and the freedom to play however they want. Now they've seemed to engineer a situation where if they DON'T make the semi final its seen as a massive failure, because of the prospective teams they could face in the next two games.

Imagine this; Southgate keeps the same 11 from the first 2 games, smash Belgium's reserves, smash Japan in the second round and then go on to face Brazil (Or Mexico, I honestly can't believe the disservice everyone seems to be doing to them), on the back of 4 good wins, and with no expectations. To play as plucky young underdogs. Instead they have the weight of a nation, AND all other nation's fans who are just dying to jump on their hubris, on their backs. It makes no sense to me.

Why so much fear of Brazil?? They haven't looked anything special so far this tournament. Why gloss over the Swiss or the Swedes, who have actually looked quite good? Why talk about the quarter final AT ALL when you've a second round game against a very good team in Colombia?

The scenes when England lose to Colombia and Belgium play Mexico in the quarters.
 
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VP89 said:
One thing I'm quite sure on is that the players won't be shitting at the prospect of Colombia. England have stronger players all round the park with the exception of the 10.

They have broadly been more convincing and cohesive too. Its so bizzare to claim they'd be bricking it from fecking Colombia of all teams.
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They aren't now. And they shouldn't be. Colombia are not great. But the pressure the press will generate between now and kick-off will have an effect.
 
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