need to move on from smalling.
How good is our squad, really?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
need to move on from smalling.
The Leicester game was a freak. I honestly think there were a lot of promising signs in there before the collapse.
De Gea
Rafael - Jones - Smalling - Shaw
Blind
Fellaini - Di Maria
Herrera
Rooney - Wilson
I would like to see this one. Not that Wilson is better than Falcao or van Persie, but I can totally see Rooney working well with a rapid partner.Rafael - Jones - Smalling - Shaw
Blind
Fellaini - Di Maria
Herrera
Rooney - Wilson
I agree, I think LvG has taken it too much to heart. There are times Manchester United concede goals, even the best sides we had got walloped sometimes.
How people can’t see that is beyond me, we’ve had plenty of these results in the past, it happens from time to time when you play attacking football. It’s what made us an exciting team to watch.
I kind of think the opposite. The signs of the Leicester debacle were there beforehand. We annihilated one of the worst QPR teams I've ever seen but as soon as 'Arry subbed on a bit of pace and power we had Armand Traore, of all people, waltzing from out of their half all the way into our box.
Plus West Ham were shitting all over us when Rooney got sent off. Another game where we went with the diamond. Everton also got at us far too easily as well. Ditto West Brom. People keep saying it was the Leicester game that put Van Gaal off the diamond but it was blatantly down to more than just that one game. It was a series of games where we looked good going forward in but were far too easy to score against.
Not convinced Di Maria can do the defensive duties well enough in this formation which is why I'd prefer 2 shielding in front of the back 4 (one of which is a box to box). Fellaini I have time for, but we can do better, he still isn't absolute top drawer, and have the same reservations regarding his abilities to defend and regain possession. Blind could well be overwhelmed by the lack of dominance in the midfield.
The same argument could be made for any formation, each has its benefits and downfalls. At least with an attacking formation we look like we can score, no matter the formation we play at the moment we look venerable at the back
This is the head scratcher, a few not convinced by the duties of DM in a defensive role, The same with blind in a 2 man anchor man role, even Herrera I find better played further forward. So we got a problem With our midfield, and you factor in money spent on fellaini Herrera mata blind and di Maria, have they solved our engine room? And overall midfield problem? That's the million dollar question
We've continued to make really silly defensive errors but we've actually tightened up a lot. Clean sheets at the expense of goals. I know what us fans prefer but Van Gaal would point to the long unbeaten run as evidence his approach is working.
When I say "working" he's making the most of limited resources. As per the OP we lack quality in a lot of areas.
What would be your first choice 11 to get the most out of the squad we have?
Ok we have stopped shipping goals, but if we don't score then we will be dropping points left right and centre. It is tight for that 4th place. Could you imagine if we finished 7th again. 
In all honesty is our defence THAT bad? In comparison to the rest of the league we haven't conceded that many goals. Smalling has been out best defender, Jones and Rojo have been decent., and Evans has been poor. A lot of the problems with our defence seem to be when we chuck men forward and we get counter attacked or putting ourselves under pressure when we misplace a pass. Of course it can be argued that David is in the form of his life and keeps us in some games, but that's why you have world class goalkeepers. If we play a system the defenders are comfortable with, I don't think the defence is so bad, just think we are lacking a leader at the back.
If we had a midfield diamond with Carrick at the base, Di Maria and Fellaini at centre midfield and Mata at the tip. We would have one of the best midfields in the Premier League. Carrick is as good as anyone in the Premier League in that holding midfield role. He reads the game so well, and his distribution is fantastic. Blind is adequate cover and can do a decent job in that role. Di Maria is devastating when he runs at defences from a deep position, his final ball can sometimes let him down but he is easily one of the best players in the Premier League. Fellaini has been very effective for us and provides some steel to the team, he is also a very good plan b and is always a goal scoring threat, 12 months ago I was very critical over Fellaini (like the majority of United fans) but fair play to him for turning it around, showed a lot of mental strength and self belief. Mata at the tip of that diamond would be great, his stats don't lie and he will pop up with his fair share of goals and assists. Strangely he gets heavily criticised on here for: not doing 'much' other than scoring; not being defensively sound and not being David Silva. A player who can score goals from midfield is something we have craved for a long time. The defence criticism annoys me- he is a number 10, since when has that been a requirement for your attacking midfielder? The quicker the caf realises he is a very different player to Silva the more praise he will get.
Up front we have 3 of the best options in the Premier League: Falcao, Rooney and van Persie are 3 exceptional strikers. LVG has stated he will not drop Rooney because he is the captain, fair enough I agree the captain should play every game he is available for, but he needs to be played in his best position. With Rooney up front, we have a striker who can hold up the ball, willing to run the channels and will link up play. He can cause havoc and will always grab us a goal. Personally I think we should be starting with Rooney up front with either Falcao or RVP partnering him. RVP is a Premier League proven player, and he has been written off a lot over the past couple of months, but in all honesty have any of our strikers played well in the current system? the lack of chances created with this system is shocking. Hell, even the amount of forward passes in this system is poor. Falcao, has a massive reputation, and like many United fans, when I heard the news that he had signed for us, I was very excited. Okay, I admit he has been a little underwhelming so far, but let's look at him rationally: he is coming off the back of a very serious injury- clearly he needs more time to get himself fit; he is adjusting to a new league- the majority of players take time to settle, of course some hit the ground running but its fairly common for players to take time; he is playing for a team that is in transition and doesn't look comfortable with the current system and playing style, hence the lack of chances created. After considering all this it is no surprise that he has not quite the heights of his reputation. In his recent displays he has looked good, thought he was one of our best players against QPR. I have faith he will turn good. We also have Wilson who looks a real prospect, hopefully he can continue his development.
Overall, I think the squad is good enough for the top 3, the building blocks are there. I don't think we need a major overhaul again, 2 or 3 quality signings and will be right up there next season.
If we had a midfield diamond with Carrick at the base, Di Maria and Fellaini at centre midfield and Mata at the tip. We would have one of the best midfields in the Premier League. Carrick is as good as anyone in the Premier League in that holding midfield role. He reads the game so well, and his distribution is fantastic. Blind is adequate cover and can do a decent job in that role. Di Maria is devastating when he runs at defences from a deep position, his final ball can sometimes let him down but he is easily one of the best players in the Premier League. Fellaini has been very effective for us and provides some steel to the team, he is also a very good plan b and is always a goal scoring threat, 12 months ago I was very critical over Fellaini (like the majority of United fans) but fair play to him for turning it around, showed a lot of mental strength and self belief. Mata at the tip of that diamond would be great, his stats don't lie and he will pop up with his fair share of goals and assists. Strangely he gets heavily criticised on here for: not doing 'much' other than scoring; not being defensively sound and not being David Silva. A player who can score goals from midfield is something we have craved for a long time. The defence criticism annoys me- he is a number 10, since when has that been a requirement for your attacking midfielder? The quicker the caf realises he is a very different player to Silva the more praise he will get.
Up front we have 3 of the best options in the Premier League: Falcao, Rooney and van Persie are 3 exceptional strikers. LVG has stated he will not drop Rooney because he is the captain, fair enough I agree the captain should play every game he is available for, but he needs to be played in his best position. With Rooney up front, we have a striker who can hold up the ball, willing to run the channels and will link up play. He can cause havoc and will always grab us a goal. Personally I think we should be starting with Rooney up front with either Falcao or RVP partnering him. RVP is a Premier League proven player, and he has been written off a lot over the past couple of months, but in all honesty have any of our strikers played well in the current system? the lack of chances created with this system is shocking. Hell, even the amount of forward passes in this system is poor. Falcao, has a massive reputation, and like many United fans, when I heard the news that he had signed for us, I was very excited. Okay, I admit he has been a little underwhelming so far, but let's look at him rationally: he is coming off the back of a very serious injury- clearly he needs more time to get himself fit; he is adjusting to a new league- the majority of players take time to settle, of course some hit the ground running but its fairly common for players to take time; he is playing for a team that is in transition and doesn't look comfortable with the current system and playing style, hence the lack of chances created. After considering all this it is no surprise that he has not quite the heights of his reputation. In his recent displays he has looked good, thought he was one of our best players against QPR. I have faith he will turn good. We also have Wilson who looks a real prospect, hopefully he can continue his development.
Overall, I think the squad is good enough for the top 3, the building blocks are there. I don't think we need a major overhaul again, 2 or 3 quality signings and will be right up there next season.
I'd go with a 4231. Blind and Carrick shielding the defence then Rooney, Mata and Di Maria behind Falcao. I don't think Van Gaal has ever been a fan of that formation though.
Don't get me wrong, I'm as frustrated by Van Gaal's team and tactics as anyone. I was just trying to understand his rationale. I think there is a little bit of method to his madness.
I don't mind that formation either.
Ok we have stopped shipping goals, but if we don't score then we will be dropping points left right and centre. It is tight for that 4th place. Could you imagine if we finished 7th again.
I do think playing di Maria upfront, and rooney in midfield is not helping our cause, in terms of carrying the ball. Di Maria is the only player that can run with the ball with acceleration to beat a man, no offence to rooney he's not the most mobile of players, so that is a problem in itself
Yep, there's at least some logic behind the 3-5-2, even if we don't agree with it.
Playing Di Maria as a forward while you play Rooney and Mata deeper in midfield is a different matter though.....
I agree to a certain extent, however we are playing to our biggest weakness when we should be playing to our biggest strength. Attack is the best form of defence and I will always believe that. Unfortunately at the moment the gap between our defence, midfield and attack is widening by the week, our defensive play is not only affecting our fluency but enticing the opposition to attack and press our back line. Against QPR our central defenders had 114 passes in the first half between them, that’s slightly over 3 times more than Chelsea had this weekend.
I’d understand is we were playing Chelsea or City but against the so called weaker teams who are going to sit deep, then for me its bat shit crazy to play 5-1-2-1-1. Possession football is all well and good, but when you can’t get into the oppositions final third then what’s the point of having the ball.
the defenders are still terrible the record shows fewer goals against because dave the save is playing off his t@ts. the backline is still miles off.
What? Injuries, fine, maybe its too much of a gamble because of that. But his form before injury was way over and above anything we have in the squad right now.
I'm very worried that our least talented players are playing up top. Sure some of our defensive play has been poor, but based on united form there are similar worries over RVP, Mata, Falcao then there is over Smalling, jones and Rojo.
Every good manager has to have a little bit of that, it’s the reason I still trust him 100%
That is my preferred formation also.
Carrick/Fellaini Blind
Rooney Mata Di Maria
RVP/Falcao
Rooney Mata Di Maria
RVP/Falcao
or
Carrick/Fellaini Blind
Herrera Mata Di Maria
Rooney
Herrera Mata Di Maria
Rooney
As much as i hate the 352 the only reason i can think why LVG would persist with that formation is he has no faith in our back line.
We don't want to buy player that is going to break down, when we have enough of those already, and especially the price they will put on him, VG is best to look else where
He settled on it at Bayern. Started with a 4-4-2 diamond, dicked around with a 3-3-3-1 briefly then settled on 4-2-3-1. (And no, im not making this up)
That's no good. We need to trust our manager 110%.....
...bollocks, where's my f'kin coat?
Our squad is very good I think easily third best in the league.It's still in need of fine tuning though.
We need a leader in our defense so covering the defense isn't our midfields top priority.
We need a RB who can stay fit and a upgrade on Fellaini as the physical presence in midfield.That's three top players we need to bring in to make our squad up their with the best.
If we want to play 433 we'll need to bring in a winger or two.Otherwise we'll probably need to get in a pacy striker.However if we sort the midfield and defense first,I feel our forwards will play much better together regardless of new signings.
As for now,I think the whole squad is better suited to 442 diamond even though it does lead to more chances for the opposition.Our goalie is the best in the league so I say let them at him if it means we actually play good football and score more goals.
We need a leader in our defense so covering the defense isn't our midfields top priority.
We need a RB who can stay fit and a upgrade on Fellaini as the physical presence in midfield.That's three top players we need to bring in to make our squad up their with the best.
If we want to play 433 we'll need to bring in a winger or two.Otherwise we'll probably need to get in a pacy striker.However if we sort the midfield and defense first,I feel our forwards will play much better together regardless of new signings.
As for now,I think the whole squad is better suited to 442 diamond even though it does lead to more chances for the opposition.Our goalie is the best in the league so I say let them at him if it means we actually play good football and score more goals.
Persisting with Rooney in central midfield is the most frustrating decision of all for me. Even worse than the cocking 352.
Mind you, I'm in a minority of one who just doesn't see Di Maria as a central midfielder. Well two, if you include Van Gaal! Di Maria's carelessness on the ball goes against Van Gaal's (and my) idea of how a CM should play. He clearly doesn't fancy him in that position so has tried him out wide and then in a free role behind the striker.To be honest, I don't think Di Maria is blameless for his failure to impress in those roles. He should be good enough to hurt the opposition regardless. Especially when he has the luxury of zero defensive responsibilities. People say he needs to be running from deep to be at his best, well I don't see anyone stopping him doing that. He's being given a lot of freedom and not making the most of it.
What I really can't understand is why our two best 'proper' central midfielders, Blind and Carrick, have yet to start a single game in midfield together, while our one of our most prolific strikers ever has running battles with the referee playing a position he just isn't suited to playing. That blows my mind.
Ah. Good news so.
I personally think the squad is a lot better than its made out. Maybe just a couple of players away from challenging for the Premiership. However, some of LvG's decisions have been bewildering.
I think Di Maria will get his turn in midfield when Van Gaal is happy that the players behind him are capable of soaking up the extra pressure it adds.
They are similar players and it probably wouldn't work or not be as effective as you think. Playing one of them alongside Fellaini or Herrera would be more beneficial IMO.
Is this a case of your personal preference in relation to Di Maria's position on the pitch, or a wider belief that Di Maria isn't actually a central midfielder?
I understand the former and your reasoning for that, albeit I disagree, but Di Maria is a proven player in that attacking central midfield role. Alongside Alonso and Modric he was fantastic, and Madrid flourished with him in the side alongside some incredibly attacking players like Ronaldo and Bale. I see no reason why we can't adopt a similar kind of set up with the players at our disposal.
You quite rightly go on to suggest that Carrick and Blind should play together at base of the midfield. In that case, would you not be happy to see Di Maria through the centre alongside them?
i think it'd be worth a go. blind likes to get forward more and can pick a pass has good feet and would compliment carrick.
I don't think there's many better around for that task than Carrick and Blind. Di Maria at the tip, and Rooney playing upfront.
Only in that scenario, yes. Although I think Mata central and Di Maria wider would be a better use of our resources. Both of them able to drift around, mind you.
One player up front, either mata or Rooney playing in behind and then four midfielders can be arranged into a host of different positions. Trying to play more than two of Rooney, mata, RVP and falcao makes no sense and it distorts how good our attack actually is because they don't work together and three of them are past their best. The attack is just as big a problem as the midfield and the defence, it looks better on paper but it's just not good enough and because of the age of the players it isn't going to improve in time.
De Gea - better than Hart, would easily be number 1 at Arsenal
Di Maria - would make the City and Arsenal XI
Rooney - would make the Chelsea, City and Arsenal XI
So there you have it 3 players that I believe would make the XI of our rivals, anyone beyond that? Mata? No given he was sold by Chelsea, not better than Silva at City and I can't see where he'd fit in and above who at Arsenal. Carrick? Maybe the Arsenal XI but that's it. The only other one who may have a shout would be Shaw. Now this doesn't mean we're in need of 8 players as I don't think anyone would be clawing over Willian or Fernando for example however there is a problem when there's more players from your rivals you would take than vice versa
We have the makings of a very good squad though, De Gea, Valdes, Shaw, Carrick, Blind, Fellaini, Herrera, Mata, Di Maria, Rooney, RVP & Falcao if he stays can all play a very positive role in the squad be it from starting week in week out to being a good backup or being an impact sub we're a long way short of having a Chelsea quality starting XI though
First XI
--------De Gea--------
???---???---???---Shaw
--------Carrick--------
-----???-------Di Maria
--------Rooney--------
-----RVP-----Falcao-----
Second XI
--------Valdes--------
???---???---???---Rojo
---------Blind---------
--Fellaini----Herrera--
---------Mata---------
---Wilson----???---
Based on team selections thus far that's how I see LVG rates our squad at the moment, you could argue that over the course of the season thus far Mata has been more of a certain starter than Falcao but it's my opinion that come next season Mata will see his starts reduced even more than they have been this whether that's Falcao starting (I doubt it personally as I don't think he'll be here) or another striker we'll have to wait and see. What the above does say to me though is we'll be looking for at least 4 new starters next season with the likes of Rafael, Smalling, Jones & Evans taking up the blank spots in the second XI
Di Maria - would make the City and Arsenal XI
Rooney - would make the Chelsea, City and Arsenal XI
So there you have it 3 players that I believe would make the XI of our rivals, anyone beyond that? Mata? No given he was sold by Chelsea, not better than Silva at City and I can't see where he'd fit in and above who at Arsenal. Carrick? Maybe the Arsenal XI but that's it. The only other one who may have a shout would be Shaw. Now this doesn't mean we're in need of 8 players as I don't think anyone would be clawing over Willian or Fernando for example however there is a problem when there's more players from your rivals you would take than vice versa
We have the makings of a very good squad though, De Gea, Valdes, Shaw, Carrick, Blind, Fellaini, Herrera, Mata, Di Maria, Rooney, RVP & Falcao if he stays can all play a very positive role in the squad be it from starting week in week out to being a good backup or being an impact sub we're a long way short of having a Chelsea quality starting XI though
First XI
--------De Gea--------
???---???---???---Shaw
--------Carrick--------
-----???-------Di Maria
--------Rooney--------
-----RVP-----Falcao-----
Second XI
--------Valdes--------
???---???---???---Rojo
---------Blind---------
--Fellaini----Herrera--
---------Mata---------
---Wilson----???---
Based on team selections thus far that's how I see LVG rates our squad at the moment, you could argue that over the course of the season thus far Mata has been more of a certain starter than Falcao but it's my opinion that come next season Mata will see his starts reduced even more than they have been this whether that's Falcao starting (I doubt it personally as I don't think he'll be here) or another striker we'll have to wait and see. What the above does say to me though is we'll be looking for at least 4 new starters next season with the likes of Rafael, Smalling, Jones & Evans taking up the blank spots in the second XI
If we could do a deal for Hummels or Varane, sure. But I'm just thinking though what's doable right now, and right now I still think Smalling is good enough to handle the QPRs and Stokes of the world.