Rashdi Jaafar said:
That's rubbish
Should the Danish (or Norwegian) government appologise everytime a publication in the country offends someone? Or should this only be done when muslims are offended?
Imams Back Call for Danish Boycott
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
That's rubbish
Should the Danish (or Norwegian) government appologise everytime a publication in the country offends someone? Or should this only be done when muslims are offended?
Rashdi Jaafar said:
What utter rubbish.
That way, many of the Muslim countries should be sending stacks and stacks of apologies to Israel for the anti-semitic guff they've been printing all these years....
032Devil said:
Examples, please.
032Devil said:
What there is, is doing the best we all can, acting as people of goodwill, trying to see the other person's point of view.
032Devil said:
Elitist nonsense.
As theories of everything go, there's precious little insight in yours.
See? I can do sweeping statements too.
032Devil said:
No. But how 'muslims' decide to express their views (as if there was a unified muslim view, which there isn't), is what is important.
It annoys the hell of me to hear people like yourself pompously claim to speak for all muslims. Get off your high horse, you only speak for yourself.
032Devil said:
If only the West *did* control the middle east, then maybe we wouldn't be so worried about Israel, Syrian, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc., none of whom act in ways always congruent with Western interests.
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Well for most, it is hard to accept that WE are the culprits or that WE had a major destructive hand in the Middle-East debacle. That the media (which is our only source of information) always portrays our side of the story and paint the other side in the negative. It's an age old approach: We had an empire but it was (almost?) never portrayed as a barbaric invading force.
You right though, we have been side-tracked from the original purpose of this thread - the cartoon in a Danish publication.
You ask: "Can the muslims be excused for all their wrong-doings because of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan?" - my answer is that neither side can. But most of the 'bad stuff' has been done by the Allies.
Rashdi Jaafar said:
This is crap.
The Danish government have nothing to apologise for and other Muslim nations are wrong to demand an apology from them.
What they (the Muslims) should have done is possibly taken legal action against the publisher of the cartoon along the lines of inciting racial hatred - if such a law exists in Denmark.
The publishers were stupid. Now (some) Muslims are being stupid also.
032Devil said:
nickm said:
Some Muslims express with violence. Most Muslims do nothing.
The Allies express it by murdering and massacring hundreds of thousands. It's really arrogant of you not to expect Muslims to respond with violence also.
The attitude in the West is 'we can murder at will and that's OK and RIGHT because they are the only one's in the right. And that all murders by Muslims is vile, dispicable and wrong.
Of course there isn't a unified Muslim view! Is there a unified Western view? I don't thing so. Your really are ignorant to expect a unified Muslim view: they are not one nation but many. Each with their own individuality, just like each Christian/secular/Western nation.
nickm said:
I don't speak for anyone - neither for my country (Britian) or Muslims. I've tried to express my view the way I see the world - just as you do.
What really annoys you (I'm guessing) is that I don't accept the standard Western p-o-v.
032Devil said:
Again, that's rubbish.
The western media has from day one of the Iraq war been very divided on it, and there are as much anti-US reporting as pro-US reporting.
Most of the "bad stuff" has not been done by the allies. If I am not totally wrong, the "allies" have not encouraged it's people to target Norway for terror, for example.
Your view is as biased as any anti-muslim view on this issue.
032Devil said:
I think, if anything annoys him, is that you have accepted the standard muslim point of view...
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Like I said earlier, it's about taking sides and not about truth, justice etc., which makes all these discussions a waste of time.
032Devil said:
No one can stop some Danes and some Muslims from being stupid, but governments have a responsibity to safeguard the interests of its majority. Sometimes it is alright to eat the humble pie as it happens in this case. Hopefully, it is not too late.
Abbsta said:
fecking hell.
we'll have to see what happens with this now. doubt the French will apologize.
032Devil said:
No. I would not expect muslims to respond with violence, because it is not a war aimed at muslims. It is a war aimed at islamic fundamentalists. This is an absolutely crucial point - claiming that it is wider than it is is reckless, dangerous and wrong.
032Devil said:
This is total nonsense. There is no such attitude, and it is obvious that the West does not target indiscriminantly (sloppily sometimes, crudely, perhaps. But not randomly.)
In Afghanistan, attacking the Taliban was a totally legitimate thing to do, since they had attacked, or at the least, sponsored the 9/11 attack on the US. If this was not a legitimate thing to do, please explain why.
In Iraq, hey I don't like that war. I argued against it. But whatever it was, it was not about murdering muslims at will.
032Devil said:
You're the one who said, "the attitude in the West is 'we can murder at will". You are the one claiming a unified bloc 'the West' has a unified view, "we can murder at will." If this isn't what you think, then don't say so!
032Devil said:
No, what annoys me is your thinking is riddled with holes, sloppy logic and a lack of thought. I couldn't care less what POV you adopt, only that you have at some point thought about it.
032Devil said:
Why are you wasting your time on it then?
And you are wrong, it's not about taking sides either.
It's about finding a solution.
Rashdi Jaafar said:
I don't see why it's a government matter. I know many muslims live in autocracies where the state controls everything, therefore to them it must be a state-sanctioned action. But it wasn't and it isn't, and the cultural ignorance this displays on both sides is a shame.
Rashdi Jaafar said:
Wrong
The Danish government can't and should not do anything
The Danish newspaper did nothing illegal. They did something daft, yes, but they can't be punished for that.
An Extremely Boring Man said:
I can only speak about Britian and especially London which is where I live.
The Sun which has the highest readership was extreme in it's support for the war and anti-Muslim stance.
Others like The Mail, The Express, The (London) Evening Standard, The Times, and The Telegraph all supported war action. They were all believing, accepting and peddling the crap dished out by Bush/Blair.
Only The Mirror and The Independent were offering a middle-of-the-road arguement.
The Guardian is a devious paper. It gives the impression it's middle-of-the-road but is more often than not like the others.
"Your view is as biased as any anti-muslim view on this issue." - I don't think you meant this, did you?
032Devil said:
I do
And you are wrong about the media and the papers in the UK. Some have supported the war, others haven't. More or less from day one. And if I am not wrong, all of them have at some point criticised it.
So, basically, the media is divided on it, and when you said "Well for most, it is hard to accept that WE are the culprits or that WE had a major destructive hand in the Middle-East debacle. That the media (which is our only source of information) always portrays our side of the story and paint the other side in the negative.", you were wrong. Very wrong.
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Your very critical of many other poster and frequently accuse them of being 'wrong' or other such phrases. You are as convinced of the correctness of your position as any other posters here (including myself).
Just because you believe something to be so doesn't make it so.
Like I said it's about taking sides...
...and not about finding solutions.
032Devil said:
Ok, I'll let people keep on taking sides then, and let the trouble in the middle east go on and on and on and on...
I just hope they let me and mine and the rest of the people who, to be honest, couldn't give two fecks about the middle east, live in peace, without having to fear being blown up.
An Extremely Boring Man said:
You have more chance dying of aids or a car accident
Sultan said:
What's that got to do with it?
Sultan said:
Oh no he hasn't. AIDS has been banned.
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Easing you're fears of dying from terrorism...fear is overated.
Sultan said:
Another daft comment by you.
Before 9/11 I didn't really think about the chance of someone using a plane I or my loved ones are boarding could be used by some looines to crash into a building with.
Before the London bombings, I didn't really think about the chance of some loonies blowing themselves up on trains that friends and family use regularly.
The chances are small, I grant you that. The the chances shouldn't have been there at all.
And now, the nutters are encouraging muslims to target Norway, because of a publicasion with a circulation of about 5,000 copies has printed something they didn't like.
I rather that was not the case.
Spoony said:
Shit, just reading this article. It say's Manchester's over took NY. . . and is now the worlds 20th most expensive city. Olso number one. London is 7th.
Spoony said:
What are they measuring though?
E.g. The flat I bought here in Oslo, would have cost almost twice as much in central London
And the average salary in Norway is about £30k
An Extremely Boring Man said:What are they measuring though?
E.g. The flat I bought here in Oslo, would have cost almost twice as much in central London
And the average salary in Norway is about £30k
'City rankings were created by sampling the prices of a basket of 160 goods and services ranging from bread and eggs to the cost of renting a tennis court and hiring a cleaner. These calculations reveal that Tokyo remains the most expensive city in the world. At the same time, they show that the cost of living in every country in the EU has soared'
Property prices do come into it though, I think.
Spoony said:
What is expensive in Norway, are so-called luxury items and services. Things that people could live without.
In general, food and clothes are not that much more expensive than in the UK.
Going out IS expensive. Not neccessarily going out for food - a course that costs £20 in the UK, would probably cost £30 here. But, if you ordered an average bottle of wine, you would have to pay £30-40 for it - that's where the restaurants get their margin from. Which they need, because the staff will be on £15-20 an hour.
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Is that average or minimum wage?
'The high-octane performance of Oslo can be put down to the strong appreciation of Norway's currency, the krone, while Tokyo's fall from the top spot after many years as the world's costliest city is the result of Japan's weak economy and lower prices.'
Is it a fair reflection though? It's all about strength of currency and earnings. For example, a normal bloke in Mumbai or Buenos Aires is probably earning a lot less, hence could be paying on average more than say people in Oslo or Tokyo. That said it's from an international perspective so that goes out of the window.
Still can't get over the fact Manchester's more expensive than NY.
Spoony said:
No idea what the minimum wage is today, it was about £4 when I was a teenager I remember. But, £15-20 is what I imagine a waiter gets at evening, weekend. That's why we get all the Swedes coming over here to work in bars and restaurants
It is obviously related to the average earnings in the respective countries, as well as the strength of the economy. Norway is booming, and there are SO much money around now, that prices will keep going up, unless the authorities do something drastic re. interest rate. The interest rate WILL go up though. It's madness in the current climate to be able to get a mortgage with an interest rate of 3%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons
When the organisation Islamic Society in Denmark toured the Middle-East to create awareness about the cartoons, they also brought 3 additional images. The first of the three additional pictures, which are of dismal quality, shows Muhammad as a pedophile demon, the second shows Muhammed with a pig snout and the third depicts a praying Muslim being raped by a dog.
Akhmad Akkari, spokesman of the 21 Danish Muslim organizations which organized the tour, explained that the three drawings had been added to "give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims." Akkari claimed he does not know the origin of the three pictures. He said they had been sent anonymously to Danish Muslims. However, when Ekstra Bladet asked if it could talk to these Muslims, Akkari refused to reveal their identity. These images had however never been published in Jyllands-Posten. The society also allegedly exaggerated its membership and the hardships of Muslims in Denmark, for instance claiming to represent 200,000 angry Muslims, when the actual number was in fact fewer than 15,000. [26].
BBC World also aired a story showing one of the three non-published images, on 2006-01-30, and wrongly claimed it had been published in Jyllands-Posten[27].
Other rumours of misinformation include the statement that Jyllands-Posten is a governmentally owned newspaper. Spokesman for the Danish delegation Muhammed al Samha and delegation member Ahmed al-Harbi in the Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram quoted the following answer to the question on when they first sensed a crisis that needed a breaking of silence: "It was when Jyllands-Posten, a newspaper belonging to the ruling Danish party - an extreme right-wing party, publishing drawings and sketches of the prophet Muhammad." This caused the Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to demand an apology from the Islamic Society in Denmark for spreading lies about the newspaper and the ruling party. [citation needed] Rumours of misinformation also include statements that Danish newspapers are running a campaign against Islam and that the Danish government is planning to publish a censored version of the Koran. [citation needed]
Ahmad Abu Laban, the leader of the organisation Islamic Society in Denmark, has misinformed on Al Jazeera[28], that we should be enjoyed if someone chooses to boycot Denmark. However, in other media, he recommends not to boycot Denmark, and says he will work actively to prevent further boycot.
(note to muslim readers - there is a small-ish image on the wikipedia page of the cartoons in question - you may want to avoid clicking on the link if you're offended by such things)
When the organisation Islamic Society in Denmark toured the Middle-East to create awareness about the cartoons, they also brought 3 additional images. The first of the three additional pictures, which are of dismal quality, shows Muhammad as a pedophile demon, the second shows Muhammed with a pig snout and the third depicts a praying Muslim being raped by a dog.
Akhmad Akkari, spokesman of the 21 Danish Muslim organizations which organized the tour, explained that the three drawings had been added to "give an insight in how hateful the atmosphere in Denmark is towards Muslims." Akkari claimed he does not know the origin of the three pictures. He said they had been sent anonymously to Danish Muslims. However, when Ekstra Bladet asked if it could talk to these Muslims, Akkari refused to reveal their identity. These images had however never been published in Jyllands-Posten. The society also allegedly exaggerated its membership and the hardships of Muslims in Denmark, for instance claiming to represent 200,000 angry Muslims, when the actual number was in fact fewer than 15,000. [26].
BBC World also aired a story showing one of the three non-published images, on 2006-01-30, and wrongly claimed it had been published in Jyllands-Posten[27].
Other rumours of misinformation include the statement that Jyllands-Posten is a governmentally owned newspaper. Spokesman for the Danish delegation Muhammed al Samha and delegation member Ahmed al-Harbi in the Egyptian newspaper al-Ahram quoted the following answer to the question on when they first sensed a crisis that needed a breaking of silence: "It was when Jyllands-Posten, a newspaper belonging to the ruling Danish party - an extreme right-wing party, publishing drawings and sketches of the prophet Muhammad." This caused the Danish Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to demand an apology from the Islamic Society in Denmark for spreading lies about the newspaper and the ruling party. [citation needed] Rumours of misinformation also include statements that Danish newspapers are running a campaign against Islam and that the Danish government is planning to publish a censored version of the Koran. [citation needed]
Ahmad Abu Laban, the leader of the organisation Islamic Society in Denmark, has misinformed on Al Jazeera[28], that we should be enjoyed if someone chooses to boycot Denmark. However, in other media, he recommends not to boycot Denmark, and says he will work actively to prevent further boycot.
(note to muslim readers - there is a small-ish image on the wikipedia page of the cartoons in question - you may want to avoid clicking on the link if you're offended by such things)
also from the same link:
"A recent poll from Epinion for Danmarks Radio, the national broadcasting company of Denmark, showed that of 579 Danes asked, 79% believe that the Prime Minister of Denmark should not apologize to the Muslims, with 48% citing that would be political interference with the freedom of press, while 44% thought the Prime Minister should try harder to resolve the controversy. 62% of the asked believed that Jyllands-Posten shouldn't apologize either, while 58% did feel that while it was the right of Jyllands-Posten to publish the images, they could understand the Muslim criticism."
"A recent poll from Epinion for Danmarks Radio, the national broadcasting company of Denmark, showed that of 579 Danes asked, 79% believe that the Prime Minister of Denmark should not apologize to the Muslims, with 48% citing that would be political interference with the freedom of press, while 44% thought the Prime Minister should try harder to resolve the controversy. 62% of the asked believed that Jyllands-Posten shouldn't apologize either, while 58% did feel that while it was the right of Jyllands-Posten to publish the images, they could understand the Muslim criticism."
Nistelrooy10 said:
the connection between certain middle eastern nations and terrorism are a lot stronger than denmark/norway and the printing of these cartoons. didn't stop these imams from asking for a boycot now did it?
again, if you can find an example of these imams asking for a boycot of a nation/territory because of its support for terrorism/killing in the name of islam (iran, afghanistan, syria, palestine, etc), then by all means. of course, we know that such boycots do not exist - allowing free speech is apparently the greater blasphemy.
the Germans, Spanish and Italians are printing them too. wonder if the Brits will follow suit?
also, will the Palestinians and others that are demonstrating against this will boycott EU aid?
also, will the Palestinians and others that are demonstrating against this will boycott EU aid?
The aid is not that big. They should.
Kevrockcity said:
Palestinians have been put through hell and back, so how can you boycott them? What has Afghanistan done now? Iran? Please, spare me the propaganda