Imams Back Call for Danish Boycott

An Extremely Boring Man said:
You are guilty of stereotyping here now.

For a start, I am not an inhabitant of the British society, not am I person in Britain.

You are wrong about ordinary people in Britain not giving a damn about religion and religious figures. Plenty do, including my own wife and her family, who are devoted Christians. However, they do not overract like when someone is poking fun of their God etc.

"British society" reacts in different ways to different things, because "British society" is a collection of individuals, who all react in different ways.

I am not saying people in the west are much more sophisticated, intelligent and compassionate than 'these Middle Age Muslims'. Again, you can't generalise like that. People are individuals, and you have all sorts everywhere. I can only speak for myself - nothing makes me mad enough to take to streets, encouraging terrorism etc.
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I don't think I am guilty of stereo-typing but of generalising which I think is neccessary when you talk about national attitudes and opinions. Although I understand your point about 'a collection of individuals', when the opinions of these individuals are grouped then you get a major group of people in England that hold anti-Muslim sentiments.

There is no doubt also that some people in Britain value religious belief though (it is generally accepted) that these are on the decline.
 
032Devil said:
I don't think I am guilty of stereo-typing but of generalising which I think is neccessary when you talk about national attitudes and opinions. Although I understand your point about 'a collection of individuals', when the opinions of these individuals are grouped then you get a major group of people in England that hold anti-Muslim sentiments.

There is no doubt also that some people in Britain value religious belief though (it is generally accepted) that these are on the decline.
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The whole non-muslim world hold anti-muslim sentiments, and not without reason!
 
FresnoBob said:
Sullie--as an educated adult, it makes you capable of ignoring the depiction, understanding the author/cartoonist's viewpoint, or educating others as to why the depiction is not necessarily true.

While the Prophet might be the role model for Muslims, as Jesus should be for Christians, those outside of our religions may look at "practicing" members of the faith and discuss the shortcomings of (some of) the followers. In this context, however, it seems that some of the most outspoken of the advocates for the religion (be it Islam or Christianity) are those clerics or pompous hypocrites who speak of the glories of their religion without fulfilling the message.

A cartoonist is within his rights to depict Muhammad in those various charicatures not as an insult to the Prophet, but to those (thankfully a small minority) who hide behind the religion as they commit crimes and atrocities. The shame is on the hypocrites who, even now, do not admit that their actions demean the faith and cast its followers in a bad light, but instead protest the cartoons as a means of diverting public scrutiny and opinion from analysis of their behavior.
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Great words of wisdom Bob, thanks, As I said to Kevin I have decided not to even view the caricatures, I think problem is borne out by repeated controversies in Western media, many innocent, some I would say deliberate provocation from right wing Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime - this leaves many Muslims with the impression that incitement to hatred is tolerable only when Muslims are victimised. It's true, Christianity gets its fair share of mockery in an increasingly secularised West.

Free speech is mostly the product of an enlightenment-era outlook on the role and status of religion in society. Admittedly it is unreasonable to expect West to overlook the cultural experiences of several centuries, similarly it is also unreasonable to expect 1.5 billion Muslims to take it for granted that free speech affords others a right to mock their religion also a way of life (which religion is to us).

Muslims right to seek legal and peaceful recourse through economic boycotts is one lesson of liberal politics that Muslims seem to have learned well.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
The whole non-muslim world hold anti-muslim sentiments, and not without reason!
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Showing you're true colours
 
Sultan said:
Muslims right to seek legal and peaceful recourse through economic boycotts is one lesson of liberal politics that Muslims seem to have learned well.
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And that's the way to go about it

Not through terrorism and violents
 
a boycott of the newspaper, it's publishers, et cetera would have been a completely appropriate response. a boycott of two entire countries for allowing free speech is emblematic of fascist tendencies.

i wish those who called for these boycotts would condemn the true blasphemers with similar relish - those that kill themselves and others in the name of islam.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
The whole non-muslim world hold anti-muslim sentiments, and not without reason!
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Care to elaborate ?
 
Kevrockcity said:
i wish those who called for these boycotts would condemn the true blasphemers with similar relish - those that kill themselves and others in the name of islam.
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I am sure they do. And I'm tired of people bringing this up all the time, as if Muslims approve of terrorists. Cut the crap.

As for boycotting terrorist, what would you have those people do? Stop buying bombs from bin Laden?
 
Kevrockcity said:
a boycott of the newspaper, it's publishers, et cetera would have been a completely appropriate response. a boycott of two entire countries for allowing free speech is emblematic of fascist tendencies.

i wish those who called for these boycotts would condemn the true blasphemers with similar relish - those that kill themselves and others in the name of islam.
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Kev--I wonder how many Muslims actually would have access to the Danish papers in question, although all 17 of the potential readers might have been offended.

Some time ago we had a foul-mouthed rapper (a bit redundant, there) come to Fresno. The DAs office got a rash of letters and phone calls from "outraged citizens" who didn't want this filth in their city. Most if not all of the protest came from middle-aged white folks (belonging to a couple of right-wing churches)--none of whom lived near the concert site or would have purchased tickets to go inside the arena where they could actually have heard the guy. In short, the protest wasn't because the act directly affected them, but because it existed at all, and that offended the populace.
 
FresnoBob said:
Kev--I wonder how many Muslims actually would have access to the Danish papers in question, although all 17 of the potential readers might have been offended.

Some time ago we had a foul-mouthed rapper (a bit redundant, there) come to Fresno. The DAs office got a rash of letters and phone calls from "outraged citizens" who didn't want this filth in their city. Most if not all of the protest came from middle-aged white folks (belonging to a couple of right-wing churches)--none of whom lived near the concert site or would have purchased tickets to go inside the arena where they could actually have heard the guy. In short, the protest wasn't because the act directly affected them, but because it existed at all, and that offended the populace.
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That's not a very good analogy at all.

You're right in that not very many Muslims read Danish, but the cartoons are a pictorial representation which doesn't require Danish, especially since an enthusiastic net freak spent a few idle minutes translating captions. The internet then did the rest, as did a few Arabic language papers, I suppose.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
All the terrorism the last few years have scared people, and created anti-muslim sentiments
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Do you ever care to wonder why ?

Do you honestly think it's all the fault of Muslims ?
 
Nistelrooy10 said:
I am sure they do. And I'm tired of people bringing this up all the time, as if Muslims approve of terrorists. Cut the crap.

As for boycotting terrorist, what would you have those people do? Stop buying bombs from bin Laden?
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have any of these imams called for a boycott of countries that fund/promote terrorism? if so, tell me.
 
FresnoBob said:
Kev--I wonder how many Muslims actually would have access to the Danish papers in question, although all 17 of the potential readers might have been offended.

Some time ago we had a foul-mouthed rapper (a bit redundant, there) come to Fresno. The DAs office got a rash of letters and phone calls from "outraged citizens" who didn't want this filth in their city. Most if not all of the protest came from middle-aged white folks (belonging to a couple of right-wing churches)--none of whom lived near the concert site or would have purchased tickets to go inside the arena where they could actually have heard the guy. In short, the protest wasn't because the act directly affected them, but because it existed at all, and that offended the populace.
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given the heretical nature of actually looking at a depiction of mohammed, i'd imagine the number of muslims who have seen these cartoons they are so greatly offended by is quite low.
 
Sultan said:
Do you ever care to wonder why ?

Do you honestly think it's all the fault of Muslims ?
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The acts of terrorism I was referring to is the fault of those who carried them out, and that was muslims. I blame those muslims. Note, I don't blame you.
 
Kevrockcity said:
have any of these imams called for a boycott of countries that fund/promote terrorism? if so, tell me.
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The US government allowed fundraising for the IRA and other terrorists groups...after a declaration of war against terrorists. Does that mean all terrorists or just the ones who attack the US?

A boycott of US ;)
 
Sultan said:
Great words of wisdom Bob, thanks, As I said to Kevin I have decided not to even view the caricatures, I think problem is borne out by repeated controversies in Western media, many innocent, some I would say deliberate provocation from right wing Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime - this leaves many Muslims with the impression that incitement to hatred is tolerable only when Muslims are victimised. It's true, Christianity gets its fair share of mockery in an increasingly secularised West.

Free speech is mostly the product of an enlightenment-era outlook on the role and status of religion in society. Admittedly it is unreasonable to expect West to overlook the cultural experiences of several centuries, similarly it is also unreasonable to expect 1.5 billion Muslims to take it for granted that free speech affords others a right to mock their religion also a way of life (which religion is to us).

Muslims right to seek legal and peaceful recourse through economic boycotts is one lesson of liberal politics that Muslims seem to have learned well.
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The thing is Sultan, that there is double-standard towards Muslim. I see it frequently not only in the outside world but also on the caf. A degree of anti-Muslim intolerance is accepted here too - the odd statement here, the odd word there, allowed to pass without rebuke.

In my opinion, free speech is limited too. There is no true democracy. There is no true free speech. What there is is TAKING SIDES.

What Enlightenment has given the oridinary person of (limited) education is greater freedom of expression but NOT intelligence.

Because most people have a degree of knowledge they use this to justify their EMOTIONAL position. They will never admit it but most are affected by the news media who spread a point-of-view of one side only.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
The acts of terrorism I was referring to is the fault of those who carried them out, and that was muslims. I blame those muslims. Note, I don't blame you.
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Do you think the West has been completely the innocent party ?
 
032Devil said:
The thing is Sultan, that there is double-standard towards Muslim. I see it frequently not only in the outside world but also on the caf. A degree of anti-Muslim intolerance is accepted here too - the odd statement here, the odd word there, allowed to pass without rebuke.

In my opinion, free speech is limited too. There is no true democracy. There is no true free speech. What there is is TAKING SIDES.

What Enlightenment has given the oridinary person of (limited) education is greater freedom of expression but NOT intelligence.

Because most people have a degree of knowledge they use this to justify their EMOTIONAL position. They will never admit it but most are affected by the news media who epouse a point-of-view of one side only.
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That's an incredible patronising post
 
Sultan said:
The US government allowed fundraising for the IRA and other terrorists groups...after a declaration of war against terrorists. Does that mean all terrorists or just the ones who attack the US?

A boycott of US ;)
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all joking aside, you know i have a point.
 
Sultan said:
Do you think the West has been completely the innocent party ?
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In terms of the terrorist acts in e.g. London, New York, Spain etc, "the West" was obviously innocent. It was carried out by Arabs, in the name of Islam.

And when people in e.g. Norway start feeling unsafe because muslim groups have encouraged muslims to target Norway as a terror target, because of one publication, then you must understand that the anti-muslim sentiments will only grow.

Why should I fear for my family, friends and loved ones because of a newspaper article?
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
The acts of terrorism I was referring to is the fault of those who carried them out, and that was muslims. I blame those muslims. Note, I don't blame you.
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So the Muslims kill a few thousand and that is (rightly) condemned.

What about the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS killed by state terrorism in Iraq, Afghanistan?

Are Muslims supposed to ignore all those massacred by the Allies?
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
I know

Keeps the backpackers away :D
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Reykjavik was 3rd but that still doesn't keep the backpackers away

can we ship some of them to you?
 
032Devil said:
So the Muslims kill a few thousand and that is (rightly) condemned.

What about the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS killed by state terrorism in Iraq, Afghanistan?

Are Muslims supposed to ignore the all those massacred by the Allies?
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For a start, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq started after and as a result of 9/11.

Secondly, people can discuss non-stop of what has led to what. That will solve nothing. I can't be asked with that. If it was up to me, the West should just leave the Middle East and the muslim world on its own. The conflicts will continue there anyway. There will never be peace in the middle east.

But, as long as the terrorism carried out by muslims continue, as well as the threats, the anti-muslim sentiments will continue.
 
032Devil said:
Because most people have a degree of knowledge they use this to justify their EMOTIONAL position. They will never admit it but most are affected by the news media who spread a point-of-view of one side only.
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I will openly admit my upbringing, relegious, emotional and media intrusion have without doubt influenced my views/opinions. I am prone to change my political leanings, but never will I compromise on my faith to change those opinions...I "think" my view will be true of most Muslims.
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
Feck off

Having all the Swedes serving us in bars and restaurants is more than enough!
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well it was worth a try.. we'll just keep on telling them driving a Toyota Yaris on the mountains roads during winter time is perfectly safe then
 
Kevrockcity said:
the population of afghanistan was higher after the war than it was before it. some massacre.
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:lol: That's a strange logic Kev...who's done a count ?
 
An Extremely Boring Man said:
For a start, the war in Afghanistan and Iraq started after and as a result of 9/11.

Secondly, people can discuss non-stop of what has led to what. That will solve nothing. I can't be asked with that. If it was up to me, the West should just leave the Middle East and the muslim world on its own. The conflicts will continue there anyway. There will never be peace in the middle east.

But, as long as the terrorism carried out by muslims continue, as well as the threats, the anti-muslim sentiments will continue.
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Boring your being myopic and selective in your examples.

I accept the war in Afghanistan and Iraq started after and (possibly) as result of 9/11 BUT you cannot constrain the discussion to those limits at you arbitrary wimp and call.

The Middle-East and those countries that form it have been a political and military football for not only decades before 9/11 but by hundreds of years for Western countries and empires.

There is no way that Western nations would leave the Middle-East alone. Why? The answer is a simple one word:

OIL

The Western nations have a vested interest in controlling those nations for it's own ends and anything that might obstruct the fulfillment of those goals will be dealt (as they have and alway have been), with extreme barbaric military force.
 
032Devil said:
Boring your being myopic and selective in your examples.

I accept the war in Afghanistan and Iraq started after and (possibly) as result of 9/11 BUT you cannot constrain the discussion to those limits at you arbitrary wimp and call.

The Middle-East and those countries that form it have been a political and military football for not only decades before 9/11 but by hundreds of years for Western countries and empires.

There is no way that Western nations would leave the Middle-East alone. Why? The answer is a simple one word:

OIL

The Western nations have a vested interest in controlling those nations for it's own ends and anything that might obstruct the fulfillment of those goals will be dealt (as they have and alway have been), with extreme barbaric military force.
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I am no more myoptic or selective than you.

You and yours excuse every action of the muslims by the actions of the US and the UK, and you managed to do so again.

But, what does that have to do with muslims group overracting to a cartoon published in a tiny publication in Norway? Can the muslims be excused for all their wrong-doings because of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan?
 
Confucius said, " If you live in a glass house, do not throw stones at others".

The least the Danish government could have done earlier was to apologize on behalf of those Danish people who do not approve of the insults thrown at Muslims by a few of its irresponsible people. The reasonable Muslims could have accepted it willingly. The issue could have fizzled out rather than escalate to national boycotts.

The arrogance of the Danish government that put unbridled freedom of speech above common decency in a civilised world is the root cause of the current reaction. Politeness and respect for the feelings of others are the order of the day for peaceful co-existence. Initial reaction of the Danish government is deemed as consent and being accomplice to the perpetrators.

It is the duty of the Government to protect the majority of its people. If the boycott continues, it has failed to protect the interest of its farmers and businesses knowing that Denmark is a trading nation in a global economy.

Nowadays, no country can live in isolation.
 
Kevrockcity said:
have any of these imams called for a boycott of countries that fund/promote terrorism? if so, tell me.
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I don't know which countries fund terrorism, and neither do you
 
032Devil said:
But has there ever been a nation that prints a cartoon strip in national newspapers that take the piss out of Jesus?

I doubt it somehow.



It disrespect of the highest order.
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fecking bollocks.

Jesus has been fair game for many satirists, he even appears on South Park.
 
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