Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Sweet Square]

You've answered almost nothing

Your question -

So what is class for you, bosses versus workers, power to the people, share everyone's wealth to everybody whether they deserve it or not. Everyone can be equal , except for a few who are more equal-that doesn't make everyone's life better and push them upwards to a better life , it drags everyone downwards, except of course for the select few more equal ones.

My answer -

I view class in a more marxist way but there are many other ways as well but what your parents were/did isn't one of them.

Your question

What is the marxist way, please enlighten?

My answer

Read this lot and get back to me

But seriously



I would also add in The Class Struggles of France, 1848 to 1850 & The Eighteenth Brumaire by Marx(Its him doing a class analysis and its actually somewhat useful for todays politics) -

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1850/class-struggles-france/index.htm

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/18th-Brumaire.pdf

No as you'll see in the stuff above. As for lets all be workers,

Why do you keep mentioning Facebook? It's the pits.

My answer

Do you want to be a serf
Why do you follow an ideology from the 19th century which has zero success rate
Do you aspire to be a homeowner or look forward to sharing a four room flat with three other families , private property being a no-no.
Do you want a society where there is absolutely no incentive to improve yourself because if you do you turn into a bourgeois and we musn't have that.

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Honestly this conversation has felt like I'm talking to someone with extreme memory loss or someone who has been in a car accident(Or honestly just someone who is very old). The jumping from one topic to the next, the constant contradictions within the same single post, completely ignoring replies back, the random mentioning of well random things(I still have no idea why you kept talking about Tony Blair).

Anyway I'm off to microwave my brain in a effort to save whatever brain cells I have left after our interaction.

 

[Vidic_In_Moscow]

Jeremy Corbyn why is he still here

 

[Volumiza]

Jeremy Corbyn why is he still here

Makes you wonder why he was ever here!

 

[Untied]

The assumption that all business owners and management are exploitative I find personally insulting. Of course it is true in certain cases as is true that certain unions exploit the companies.

The marxist point re. exploitation (very simply) is that you wouldn't hire someone if they didn't produce more value than you were paying them. e.g You wouldn't hire a chef in a restaurant for £10 p/h if they only produced £5 p/h of value for you. You do it because they produce £15 p/h of value and as the business owner that £5 difference is your profit. In this way the labour of the chef is 'exploited'.

Of course it gets much much more complicated than this in the real world, but the essence of capitalism is those with capital exploiting the labour of those without capital by rewarding them less for their work than the value it produces.

It's not insulting.

 

[Adisa]

The party is a mess at the moment tbh. But so was it in 2017. The problem is the Tories have United behind Hard Brexit. Meanwhile, Labour is still divided.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Your question -


My answer -


Your question


My answer







My answer



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Honestly this conversation has felt like I'm talking to someone with extreme memory loss or someone who has been in a car accident(Or honestly just someone who is very old). The jumping from one topic to the next, the constant contradictions within the same single post, completely ignoring replies back, the random mentioning of well random things(I still have no idea why you kept talking about Tony Blair).

Anyway I'm off to microwave my brain in a effort to save whatever brain cells I have left after our interaction.

OK you can't answer any questions - like your mate Corbyn, just stupid snide remarks. Not because you are trying to avoid them but you don't know what to answer. I do know what marxism is I just thought you might elaborate a bit yourself but seemingly only insults are possible. Good luck.

Like Corbyn with Brexit , stupid Tory deal, right Jeremy what's yours . er oh um , er , six tests that don't work but they're red instead of blue. Pathetic.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The marxist point re. exploitation (very simply) is that you wouldn't hire someone if they didn't produce more value than you were paying them. e.g You wouldn't hire a chef in a restaurant for £10 p/h if they only produced £5 p/h of value for you. You do it because they produce £15 p/h of value and as the business owner that £5 difference is your profit. In this way the labour of the chef is 'exploited'.

Of course it gets much much more complicated than this in the real world, but the essence of capitalism is those with capital exploiting the labour of those without capital by rewarding them less for their work than the value it produces.

It's not insulting.

Thanks, yes I get the principle that there should be no profit. In the real world of course this is not possible because not everything is profit based and of course not everything that is profit based produces a regular profit, some people make losses - who produces the taxes to fund the state.
Surely the collectivisation, starvation and failure of Lenin and Stalin should have taught a lesson of how people suffered because of ridiculous idealism , likewise with populism and nationalism. Sadly not.

It's not exploitation it's a contract - not a compulsory contract.
If I sell something to another company at a profit I am theoretically exploiting the other company which could be owned by a multibillionaire.

What really makes me laugh is the idea of companies having to give shares to their workers, although some companies do it voluntarily as an incentive scheme - proletariat becomes bourgeois.

Basically "I want what you've got."

 

[Paul the Wolf]

you know, the odd thing is.....Corbyn has never said that he wanted Britain to be Marxist so this entire back and forth has been completely bloody pointless.

He's never really said anything. Nobody knows, it's a secret which will be revealed at the appropriate time.

It was in connection with what is the marxist interpretation of class.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The very idea of Progressive taxation is that the those at the top pay at a higher rate.

Yes and I quite agree.

 

[711]

The party is a mess at the moment tbh. But so was it in 2017. The problem is the Tories have United behind Hard Brexit. Meanwhile, Labour is still divided.

I would imagine Corbyn will want an immediate election, before the next party conference, so he can put his own Brexit fudge in the manifesto, and not be mandated by the rank and file. And his falling popularity might be another good reason for him to want it now, rather than later.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/28/corbyn-worried-boris-johnson-election-labour-brexit

Corbyn said he was “not in the slightest” bit worried about going up in an election against Johnson, who is the third Conservative leader he has faced. He said Labour would campaign for a second referendum and to remain in the EU if Johnson was proposing a no-deal Brexit. But Corbyn said the party was not necessarily in favour of remaining in the EU if Labour could negotiate its own Brexit deal.

Asked personally whether he would prefer to remain in the EU or to leave with a Labour-backed deal, Corbyn declined to make a choice.

Is that in, out or shake it all about , just so that we're sure.

“Investment, jobs, trade and equality, both in or out of the EU. I want those things,” he said. “What we proposed was actually a very credible deal. A bespoke customs union with the EU and the trade arrangements would have achieved those things. It didn’t go through parliament, that was the problem.

To who? What a joke. Umm....

 

[Sweet Square]

OK you can't answer any questions - like your mate Corbyn, just stupid snide remarks. Not because you are trying to avoid them but you don't know what to answer. I do know what marxism is I just thought you might elaborate a bit yourself but seemingly only insults are possible. Good luck.

Like Corbyn with Brexit , stupid Tory deal, right Jeremy what's yours . er oh um , er , six tests that don't work but they're red instead of blue. Pathetic.

And there we have it. Complete and utter confidence in a subject that only yesterday you were asking for help on. Truly this is the conservative brain working at its highest form.

fecking hell, I'm done.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You shouldn't always believe what people say.

If you had noticed I'd already given you the answer.
Are you waiting for clearance from Labour HQ before answering any other questions in case you get deselected.

That was fun but now the old man below wants to have a nap whereas I shall continue to exploit a few serfs.

 

[RedChip]

The marxist point re. exploitation (very simply) is that you wouldn't hire someone if they didn't produce more value than you were paying them. e.g You wouldn't hire a chef in a restaurant for £10 p/h if they only produced £5 p/h of value for you. You do it because they produce £15 p/h of value and as the business owner that £5 difference is your profit. In this way the labour of the chef is 'exploited'.

Of course it gets much much more complicated than this in the real world, but the essence of capitalism is those with capital exploiting the labour of those without capital by rewarding them less for their work than the value it produces.

It's not insulting.

So 'exploited' = value created? What if the business owner is self employed? They exploit themselves?

Also, can the chef create the value they do without 'exploiting' the business? For example, the business provides the resources the chef uses to create the value.

I am sure many business do exploit employees, but this is a flawed way to define exploitation.

 

[Sweet Square]

You shouldn't always believe what people say.

Well if there's one thing I will take away from my conversation with you, it's this. (Oh and also "I want what you've got." isn't marxism, a bit mad that I need to say this to a grown adult)

 

[nickm]

Have said it here before.
Corbyn was not for unconditional Remain.

But he is for Remain which is better than the Brexit options the Tories are offering.

Is he now?

 

[Red Dreams]

Is he now?

Two different scenarios obviously.

He is for Remain in event of No Deal Brexit.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Well if there's one thing I will take away from my conversation with you, it's this. (Oh and also "I want what you've got." isn't marxism, a bit mad that I need to say this to a grown adult)

Jolly good cos you're not getting it. Make your own way in life.

 

[sun_tzu]

Two different scenarios obviously.

He is for Remain in event of No Deal Brexit.

Let's see if that plan survives conference
(Though I think Boris might call an election before then just to take advantage of being up against such a nebulous position)

 

[Oldyella]

Two different scenarios obviously.

He is for Remain in event of No Deal Brexit.

Is he also for time travel?

 

[sun_tzu]

Is he also for time travel?

Totally

 

[Red Dreams]

Let's see if that plan survives conference
(Though I think Boris might call an election before then just to take advantage of being up against such a nebulous position)

all I can say is if people are stupid enough to vote Tory so they can have their throats slit, well...

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Two different scenarios obviously.

He is for Remain in event of No Deal Brexit.

But if we elect him he would prefer to negotiate his new deal and leave? So if you want to remain you can't vote Labour. 65% of Labour voters voted to remain.

 

[Shamwow]

But if we elect him he would prefer to negotiate his new deal and leave? So if you want to remain you can't vote Labour. 65% of Labour voters voted to remain.

It would be stupid to not try and negotiate a new deal. Do you really want remain Vs no deal in a referendum?

No party is offering revoke, not even the lib Dems. If you actually want remain and aren't an idiot, vote for the party that has most chance of winning and is also offering a 2nd ref.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

It would be stupid to not try and negotiate a new deal. Do you really want remain Vs no deal in a referendum?

No party is offering revoke, not even the lib Dems. If you actually want remain and aren't an idiot, vote for the party that has most chance of winning and is also offering a 2nd ref.

Why is it stupid and unrealistic when BoJo says this but some how magically its the smart thing to do when J C says it?

I just want to know whether the Labour leadership wants to stay in the EU like me and 65% of the people like me who voted Labour at the last election. Or do they want to leave the EU in which case I won't vote for them. Its not that hard Shamwow really is it? If they can't say then fair enough I take my one demand and shop around to find a party that can say optimally it wants to stay and I vote for them. Until we have left at which point I can honestly say I did my bit.

 

[Red Dreams]

It would be stupid to not try and negotiate a new deal. Do you really want remain Vs no deal in a referendum?

No party is offering revoke, not even the lib Dems. If you actually want remain and aren't an idiot, vote for the party that has most chance of winning and is also offering a 2nd ref.

Thats it really.

 

[Shamwow]

Why is it stupid and unrealistic when BoJo says this but some how magically its the smart thing to do when J C says it?

I just want to know whether the Labour leadership wants to stay in the EU like me and 65% of the people like me who voted Labour at the last election. Or do they want to leave the EU in which case I won't vote for them. Its not that hard Shamwow really is it? If they can't say then fair enough I take my one demand and shop around to find a party that can say optimally it wants to stay and I vote for them. Until we have left at which point I can honestly say I did my bit.

Oh god this is why the country is fecked.

 

[Kentonio]

I just want to know whether the Labour leadership wants to stay in the EU like me and 65% of the people like me who voted Labour at the last election. Or do they want to leave the EU in which case I won't vote for them. Its not that hard Shamwow really is it? If they can't say then fair enough I take my one demand and shop around to find a party that can say optimally it wants to stay and I vote for them. Until we have left at which point I can honestly say I did my bit.

Same here. I want to stay in the EU and it’s my number one policy issue at this time. I’m not going to vote for a party that might win and then just negotiate it’s own version of Brexit. I want to use my democratic vote to change the direction of the country in the way I want it to be. If Labour can’t support the thing that matters most to me, then they don’t get my vote.

 

[Shamwow]

So who are you geniuses going to vote for who is going to stop Brexit?

 

[Kentonio]

So who are you geniuses going to vote for who is going to stop Brexit?

Lib Dem. It’s not even a difficult choice. And in case you’re tempted to say ‘they can’t win’, they don’t need to win. They just need to have enough seats to be the kingmakers in the next coalition, with a second referendum as their main price for cooperation.

 

[nickm]

So who are you geniuses going to vote for who is going to stop Brexit?

Tactically.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It would be stupid to not try and negotiate a new deal. Do you really want remain Vs no deal in a referendum?

No party is offering revoke, not even the lib Dems. If you actually want remain and aren't an idiot, vote for the party that has most chance of winning and is also offering a 2nd ref.

Why wouldn’t you?

 

[Shamwow]

Lib Dem. It’s not even a difficult choice. And in case you’re tempted to say ‘they can’t win’, they don’t need to win. They just need to have enough seats to be the kingmakers in the next coalition, with a second referendum as their main price for cooperation.

Labour already has a second referendum as their policy. Why would it need to be a price for cooperation?

 

[Shamwow]

Why wouldn’t you?

Don't tell me.. remain will definitely win so we might as well make the other option as destructive as possible.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Don't tell me.. remain will definitely win so we might as well make the other option as destructive as possible.

Remain bloody nearly won back when most of the electorate didn’t have a clue how potentially destructive/expensive the alternative was. And that was with the subject of this thread doing everything short of actively sabotaging the campaign. Why wouldn’t it comfortably win a referendum vs no deal?

 

[Kentonio]

Labour already has a second referendum as their policy. Why would it need to be a price for cooperation?

Because it needs to come with a guarantee that not only will Remain be on the ballot but that the new government will actually campaign for it, and not just try and negotiate their own version of Brexit which is still Labours position last time I checked.

 

[Kentonio]

A little titbit from Alastair Campbell’s letter to Jeremy Corbyn. Just for those who really believe the Labour leadership have any interest in remaining in the EU..

”Then to hear from people in your team that your spokesman believes Johnson getting a deal over the line will be 'good for us' defies belief as to what kind of thinking, if any, is going on.”

 

[Shamwow]

Because it needs to come with a guarantee that not only will Remain be on the ballot but that the new government will actually campaign for it, and not just try and negotiate their own version of Brexit which is still Labours position last time I checked.

Whoever is government would have to try and negotiate their own version of Brexit if you want a referendum that isn't remain Vs no deal, I've already pointed this out and you ignored it.

 

[Shamwow]

Remain bloody nearly won back when most of the electorate didn’t have a clue how potentially destructive/expensive the alternative was. And that was with the subject of this thread doing everything short of actively sabotaging the campaign. Why wouldn’t it comfortably win a referendum vs no deal?

I don't know why. But I don't hate this country enough to risk it.

 

[Zlatattack]

I just don't get Labour voters who are switching to the Lib Dems.

1. Do you really think they can win enough seats to form government?
2. Have you forgotten how they enabled every single measure of austerity a weak Cameron government initiated?

I suspect the next time we'll have a general election, we'll end up with the Lib Dems enabling a Tory Brexit.