I think you might have taken his post wrong? As your reply doesn't make much sense
Jose: "There are those who want to be here at any cost and those who suffer with a little pain."
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm glad Jose did it. Fergie did it all the time with Nani, Rooney, Beckham, amongst a few other examples pointed out elsewhere. No player is ever bigger than the Club itself, and if Jose deems it right to call them out in the public, as he did, i'm behind him.
Nice dig at our manager. Well done
Some of them are, or at least, are acting that way. The thing about a manager publicly criticizing a player is that you very quickly find out where you stand with them. They can choose to knuckle down and respond accordingly, try their best to prove the criticism wrong, or sulk and moan and let the pressure get to them. It can be a win win situation for a manager. If they react positively and try their best to put things right, it strengthens their relationship with a manager and builds their confidence. The manage know he's got a player he can count on. If not, well, then you've probably very quickly found a player that isn't going to work out for you.
I am just not assuming he is infallible in all situations.
He won the title 2 years ago, and ran the team into ground the season after. There was plenty of public player "motivation" from him in that season, too. Look where that got him...
You may understand this forum as an echo chamber for opinions that align with your own. I don't.
I can respect Mourinho's past credentials while still voicing my displeasure about his antics, and his habit of blaming everybody and the world but himself, when things aren't going his way.
Then we can't criticize him for it too since we don't know for sure.
See my point was that Mourinho had won the title only 2 years ago so you can't say he's not a modern manager. But you decided to bring up his sacking which has nothing against what I said and is just a dig at Mourinho
Which is pretty strange
Roy Keane had twice the career RvN had because he fought for the team at any costs, even if that meant playing through niggles. A mentality that served him and the club well. I really don't think he'd care that RvN went on for another three years at Villareal.
And Jose is not just attacking players who refuse to play through niggles. He's attacking the whole culture of strops, press leaks, agents and brothers with dickhead haircuts on twitter.
A lot of our players have very impressive recent accomplishments .
These problems have been around since Fergie walked out the door, Moyes and LVG were blatantly undermined despite rarely criticising any player in public. Those two took the full brunt of three years of abject and woeful performances. And as soon as they were sacked, the same players they spent years protecting and pandering too came out and called them shite.
I keep seeing posts of people saying stuff like "what will this achieve" "it's bad for the squad" "recipe for disaster", as if the last three years didn't happen. The method of protecting these soft cnuts for three years has led to years of piss poor levels of under performing, managerial undermining, lack of responsibility being taken by the squad and did I mention piss poor levels of under performing.
Why shouldn't Mourinho throw them under the bus? In case what? In case they under perform?
In case they lose 4-0 to Chelsea and go around laughing, hugging and kissing their players?
In case they go away to Fenebahce and put in one of the most gutless displays ever seen from a United side in Europe?
In case they go 8 European away games without a win?
In case they crumble under the extreme pressures of West Ham, Spurs and Watford away?
In case they go a dozen or so games at Old Trafford without scoring a first half goal?
In case they finish 7th or 5th?
In case they lose 4-0 to MK dons?
Oh no that's right all those things have already happened, at a time when none of these players were held personally accountable for anything, where they were protected by the media who were quick to blame everything on Moyes, Van Gaal, hell even Fergie got some blame. It's so so tiring and even though I wasn't a fan of Moyes and van Gaal, I'm tired of the bullshit these players are getting away with.
We've got people in our squad sulking and under performing because THEIR SQUAD NUMBER CHANGED. What the feck is going on? Like seriously? We've got players who's family members are moaning on social media because they're not playing.
Nobody cares if your squad number changed, nobody cares what your family think about who deserves to be in the first team, nobody cares if you were "shocked" and "terrified" by difficult training methods, just shut the feck up and play.
There are real pros and ex pro's out there suffering from genuine problems, depression, bankruptcy, injured players who's careers have ended, players who can't get clubs etc etc. These guys have real problems, not these twats bitching because their squad number changed or because Mourinho points out that after they've just lost 4-0 to Chelsea and away to Fenerbahce that they might just be a bit shit. feck em, in fact I encourage it, after every pathetic performance, Mourinho should come out and blast them one by one.
You know I was reading through this thread thinking it's an interesting debate where I'm not 100% sure where I stand on it - I don't really trust Mourinho but I find I have a growing dislike for this group of players generally. Anyway really hard to disagree with the thrust of this post, collectively our squad are a bunch of losers.
Would you say Klopp ran Dortmund into the ground too?
No I've read this forum for over 10 years and I don't take it as some echo chamber. It's just a shame to come on here after a decent win and having Bayern fans taking the piss. Anyway if thats what you like doing then fair enough.
Herrera is in good form. Wouldnt say hes one of your most talented players but if he is then issue is deeper than imagined. Mkhitaryan contributed over 50 goals and asissts last season for a team vastly superior to United and has played the equivilant of two games. Judging a player on a half in the Manchester Derby is ridiculous especially considering the boy wasnt fit and got injured the previous week for Armenia. Martial in my opinion is a top 3 talent in world football under the age of 21 clearly isnt rated. He scored prior the alst international break vs Stoke then got injured before liverpool game and scored vs Fenerbache but then found himself on the bench again for the trip to Stamford bridge for the vastly inferior pair of Rashford and Lingard.
Shaw was having a good season until his manager decided to single him out and blame him for a goal conceded vs Watford. His form has dipped ever since then. Its your managers job to extract the best out of your most talented young players yet it seems when players lose form Mourinho instead of helping them turns his back on them.
It would worry me if Mourinho is having issues with players loosing form and not helping them recover it. Thats what top managers do. He seems to rely on indirect digs through the media to get his message across. Its actually bullying especially as these are young men in Shaw and Martials case both 20 years of age.
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Thoughts of the Chelsea fans on The Shed End:
http://www.theshedend.com/topic/29549-jose-mourinho-thread/?page=117
http://www.theshedend.com/topic/29549-jose-mourinho-thread/?page=117
He had a bad first season half, led his team into the EL and the cup final in the end nevertheless, and left on his own will on good terms. Not quite comparable.
The matter we are discussing here isn't todays win, but Jose's public lashing at players, which I find awful and contraproductive, whether you like or not.
If anything, my club affiliation should tell you that I'm not doing this out of Schadenfreude, as I'm not opposed to your club.
Strange comments.
He praised Smalling for playing through pain in the Chelsea match and now he is calling him out for being a pussy? A player who is known to have lengthy injury spells. Didn't playing the Chelsea game make him miss out at Burnley and Fenerbache?
Shaw had a horrific injury last season. Instead of helping him ease in, he is now criticized for being a little circumspect? Is he still pissed that Luke chose us over Chelsea when Jose was managing them?
What does going public with this criticism achieve? Next time what does a player do: keep playing with an injury and risk exaggerating it further? Won't this create further doubts in players mind about how to manage their own bodies? Isn't the medical staff supposed to help with this kind of stuff?
I wanted him here to take over from VG but also had huge concerns over his antics, behavior and suitability. So far only the negatives are ringing true and there are hardly any positives. Feels like he is out to get some players. As if "being hard" is the sole criteria to being a football player.
This is not some relegation fodder that he took over. This is a team that finished level on points with the fourth placed team and won the FA cup; plus he added another 150m of talent to it. Jose should talk less and get us more results.
Strange man.
He praised Smalling for playing through pain in the Chelsea match and now he is calling him out for being a pussy? A player who is known to have lengthy injury spells. Didn't playing the Chelsea game make him miss out at Burnley and Fenerbache?
Shaw had a horrific injury last season. Instead of helping him ease in, he is now criticized for being a little circumspect? Is he still pissed that Luke chose us over Chelsea when Jose was managing them?
What does going public with this criticism achieve? Next time what does a player do: keep playing with an injury and risk exaggerating it further? Won't this create further doubts in players mind about how to manage their own bodies? Isn't the medical staff supposed to help with this kind of stuff?
I wanted him here to take over from VG but also had huge concerns over his antics, behavior and suitability. So far only the negatives are ringing true and there are hardly any positives. Feels like he is out to get some players. As if "being hard" is the sole criteria to being a football player.
This is not some relegation fodder that he took over. This is a team that finished level on points with the fourth placed team and won the FA cup; plus he added another 150m of talent to it. Jose should talk less and get us more results.
Strange man.
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Thanks I was wondering what the guys on shed end thought...
There's only 4 posts from today so may as well include the 4th
Yeah, but with one caveat...usually it's older players being rested (Spurs have been doing it for years on back-to-backs). Younger players are still played fairly consistently. Strangely, Mourinho's biggest workhorse this season is the oldest player on the squad.
The one nuance here is the difference between playing through pain and playing through injury. Athletes in all sports are expected to play through pain/niggles, but it seems like Mourinho's asking them to play through injuries, which is short-sighted at best and dangerous at worst. This is a debate that's been raging in US sports for ages...American Football is by far the biggest culprit (see example).
Also, FWIW, I'm very interested in hearing the opinions from the other clubs' supporters. I don't think the discourse here devolved into WUMing until a United supporter got their knickers in a twist because their club's being criticized by non-supporters.
If it was against a big team maybe it would have been a bit understandable but if the conclusion here is that our players are to weak to consider themselves fit enough for selection against a shocking Swansea side in terrible form, knowing that they've got 2 weeks due to the international break recuperate should they aggravate any injury then maybe we should sell them all. Another £300m in January should do the trick, at least until summer. Or maybe they are just too weak to play for their national teams too, right?
For all the talk of players needing to 'toughen up' or of being 'pussies', I'm still not really sure who these players are, or who they're supposed to be.
If anyone here had said about Shaw at the start of last season when he was excelling, or even a couple of months back, that he didn't have the right mentality or wasn't tough enough, they'd have received a barrage of laughing smileys and been told where to go. Similar would've been said of Smalling when he was in form but there's probably more of an argument that he's sometimes struggled when it's mattered.
But aside from that...again, who are these players? Mourinho said the ones he picked today had desire, so it's not any of them he's talking about or we're getting at here...or it at least shouldn't be if we're going off Mourinho's comments, which I think most of us are. It shouldn't be Martial, because while he's young and still has a lot of improvement to make, he worked his arse off last season. It's not Rashford, because he's mostly the same and has done well in a position that isn't his main one. It's not Herrera or Valencia, because both have stepped their games up under Mourinho. It's not Bailly, because he's the sort of tough bastard people who think we have a soft core would want to see. Maybe he's talking about Schweinsteiger or Schneiderlin, but neither have featured much anyway, nor has someone like Depay. And all three were arrivals in the third post-Fergie season, and can hardly be seen as central figures in the club who have enough influence to implement a losing mentality.
I'm all for Mourinho being tough and honest when necessary, but I think a lot of people are eager to see more of what Fergie offered as opposed to genuinely looking at what Mourinho's said. Maybe he's right, and Shaw isn't putting in the effort...I don't know, but I'll say again that the idea our post-Fergie problems have primarily been down to a lack of a winning culture or due to a soft mentality is nonsensical, basic shite. It's fundamentally been down to poor, poor management; one manager who had no business managing a top side, and another who stifled the slightest attacking movement. I remain hopeful for Mourinho but if he fails it won't be due to the lack of a winning culture, it'll be down to him.
If anyone here had said about Shaw at the start of last season when he was excelling, or even a couple of months back, that he didn't have the right mentality or wasn't tough enough, they'd have received a barrage of laughing smileys and been told where to go. Similar would've been said of Smalling when he was in form but there's probably more of an argument that he's sometimes struggled when it's mattered.
But aside from that...again, who are these players? Mourinho said the ones he picked today had desire, so it's not any of them he's talking about or we're getting at here...or it at least shouldn't be if we're going off Mourinho's comments, which I think most of us are. It shouldn't be Martial, because while he's young and still has a lot of improvement to make, he worked his arse off last season. It's not Rashford, because he's mostly the same and has done well in a position that isn't his main one. It's not Herrera or Valencia, because both have stepped their games up under Mourinho. It's not Bailly, because he's the sort of tough bastard people who think we have a soft core would want to see. Maybe he's talking about Schweinsteiger or Schneiderlin, but neither have featured much anyway, nor has someone like Depay. And all three were arrivals in the third post-Fergie season, and can hardly be seen as central figures in the club who have enough influence to implement a losing mentality.
I'm all for Mourinho being tough and honest when necessary, but I think a lot of people are eager to see more of what Fergie offered as opposed to genuinely looking at what Mourinho's said. Maybe he's right, and Shaw isn't putting in the effort...I don't know, but I'll say again that the idea our post-Fergie problems have primarily been down to a lack of a winning culture or due to a soft mentality is nonsensical, basic shite. It's fundamentally been down to poor, poor management; one manager who had no business managing a top side, and another who stifled the slightest attacking movement. I remain hopeful for Mourinho but if he fails it won't be due to the lack of a winning culture, it'll be down to him.
Fair enough @2ndTouch
I'm just going to avoid this discussion as it seems supporting Mourinho is a minority position
It is the type of thing that would be laughed out of hand if a British manager was saying it.
Could not agree more.
Not on this forum.
Don't get your point?
It seems pretty obvious that Mourinho has a problem with Shaw and Smalling not putting themselves up for duty for yesterdays match. Mourinho deals with these players every day and if he had something to say its because he must have been a bit pissed off.
That whole comment is based on stuff in the past. So saying who are these players when ignoring the two players it seemed to be aimed at is just
I agree with your post. One has to wonder, were the players under Fergie all naturally "mentally strong" or was it down to Fergie himself? Because I remember the same group of players apparently losing it when Fergie left. I still say that the manager has a massive role in preparing his players. Jose needs to earn his paycheck rather than living in a fantasy world where all the players at his disposal are SAS ready. At what point does a manager become responsible for making the players at his disposal better, even mentally. Up until a few weeks ago, I didn't see many calling all our players a weak bunch until Jose started sticking it to them. Is this the same manager that we want giving chances to the youth from the u18?
Nailed it.
Two players, one of whom has been here for two seasons and spent most of last year recovering from an injury, doesn't make up a team with a soft mentality though, does it? Every team has a shitebag or two.
My general point is that I'm struggling to see who the bulk of the players are making up this squad that's mentally soft. I don't think we're overly strong mentally in comparison to some of the Fergie teams which were full of resilient and determined winners, but I don't think we are, or have been, much worse off than most others teams in that respect.
The problems we encountered under Moyes and LVG were entirely different: Moyes was good enough against smaller sides but had no idea how to beat a side on our level. LVG was able to do that, but struggled against smaller sides because we didn't score enough. There's no consistency in this lack of mentality people describe: our problems changed and developed post-Fergie depending on which of the two failures of managers were in charge.
I find it quite arrogant to imply the causality here. How do you know it wasn't the other way around? Shaw had a drop in form, thus he was called out by Mourinho. Its not like Mourinho talked about his mistake before it happened.
Do you really think that the lack of quality from Shaw the last weeks come from what Mourinho has said to the press? To me that just shows a huge bias towards whatever you can see and hear, which unfortunately constitutes a small portion of what actually goes on in a football club.
And even if by some miracle you're right, it does nothing but imply that the player have no spine. Ambitious athletes care about improvement, and set way higher demands to themselves than the outside world does. Every day.
Absolutely. I do think mentality is important in a team, right enough, but tactics and ability often tend to be more crucial at the highest level.
Probably a mix of both. Fergie himself was a resilient, determined manager...and our resilience was in part to him, but if you look at, say, his second CL winning team we had winners in there like Ronaldo, Rooney, Vidic, Rio, Scholes, Giggs and more. His first CL winning team had Keane, Scholes, Giggs, Neville and others along similar lines. But, of course, all the aforementioned players were great footballers, too...the reason they won stuff wasn't primarily because they were mentally strong (although it helped), it was because they were really fecking good!
Said it for years that Smalling is a shit Gary Cahill and needs binning. Bet the useless feck is shitting it now!
Shaw....He's overweight, looks fat and has been shit since his return. Plus, he's a moaner along with his brother.
Marital...Do love him but, he needs a serious kick up the arse. He can't keep looking and playing as if he uninterested.
Depay, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Miki T etc....They can all get lost ffs
Shaw....He's overweight, looks fat and has been shit since his return. Plus, he's a moaner along with his brother.
Marital...Do love him but, he needs a serious kick up the arse. He can't keep looking and playing as if he uninterested.
Depay, Schneiderlin, Schweinsteiger, Miki T etc....They can all get lost ffs
Yeah you are right, I apologies if I make bad arguments as I have been drinking
I get your point now...sadly. Although I still think Shaw needs to take some personable responsibility. Having his brother attack other players, bad
"Only players like Fellaini, Rojo, Young and Jones will accept Mourinho's methods. Why? Because they are limited players. Valuable squad players, I admit, but not first-teamers.
Barring Pogba and Zlatan, I don't think any flair player will tolerate this nonsense."
Do you know how fecking stupid you sound? He won a Champions League with Inter, with a team consisting of Cambiasso, Milito, Samuel, Zanetti, Sneijder. And you know what? I'd say that Inter team with Jose under the same methods would have a very good chance of winning the cl this year. So you're talking utter utter bollox.
If the players don't buy into his methods then sell them on. Simples. That's exactly the rotten mentality you don't want at a club that is looking to go places. Looking at becoming the best. We're so fecking far away from that mentality, it's unbelievable. The fact that some our fans are entertaining the idea of sticking on the side of these primadonnas is completely and utterly ridiculous. Where have those fans been for the past three years? We've literally just went through two managers with largely the same core of players. Surely, one must consider the possibility that the buck does not in fact stop with the manager at this point?
I'd probably see where they (the players) were coming from, had it been someone like Moyes, whom they were undermining. Granted, it's hard to argue - when you tell Vidic to defend more like Phil Jagielka, but nevertheless, they're still cnuts for doing that. Jose is a serial winner and those players are fecking nothing players except a few, so yeah of course you should be buying into his methods. If he tells you to do something, you do it like fecking greased weasel shit, because he knows better. Jesus, LvG was probably quite regimented and Jose obviously is autocratic but it's hardly fecking Royal Marines training!!
Having been on a receiving end where your subordinates/employees undermine you, I know how hard of a job it is to turn things around and start performing. It's nothing to do with tactics, it's to do with their professionalism and character. At the minute they're showing neither and I doubt they will. So yeah feck them. It doesn't matter if it's Shaw, Martial, Mkhitaryan or anyone for that matter. If you're not buying in to the ethos of the club and the manager, then you're out. Because for every Stam there was a Vidic, and for every Beckham there was a Ronaldo, and so on and so forth.
We'll continue being Man Utd and sign just as good of players who want to give it all for the shirt, until they sweat blood and puke on the pitch. We have to purge our club from these cnuts who are happy picking up paycheques whilst doing the bare minimum. That completely wrap their tits in, once we lose a game against City. Then go leaking stories to the papers and shifting the blame on the next person. They need to man the feck up, and take a look at themselves, and if they can't - well see you fecking later!
Also, if I'm honest I didn't even bother reading the rest of your post, I ended up skimming over it but the praise for Chelsea is fecking laughable. It was all Mourinho's fault (just the guy who won numerous titles and cups) and nothing to do with the same type of mentality that is affecting our club. The horrendous player power and politics within the club. Chelsea's foundations are as stable as a stack of cards. Just cause Conte has them playing now, doesn't mean Costa and Hazard won't completely quit on themselves tomorrow, when the chips are down. And you can quote me on it they will. They may well go onto win the league this season but they'll still get rid of Conte just like they did with Jose. They know they can.
Ps - The caf is a fickle, fickle place. Now Mourinho is getting questioned about everything he does but only 18 months ago I seem to remember threads about how Chelsea were going to be unbeaten the whole season in the season that he got sacked.
Pps - Sorry for the rant, but it's amazing how we can't see that Jose is definitely not the problem here. It's those shite-for-pride players we have on our books!
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Just think about how often do other top managers criticise their players publicly? Atletico Madrid are by far the toughest team in the world, but not because Simeone throws them under the bus every week. He'd take a bullet for them - the players know that and would do the same for him. Pep, klopp and Conte can all be sore losers or emotionally overreact at times, but they never engage in the nonsense, that Mourinho does week in week out. Ancelotti is a gentleman anyway.
Apparently other top managers don't need to trash-talk with the media all the time.
Apparently other top managers don't need to trash-talk with the media all the time.
Yeah, no doubt Shaw needs to improve and hasn't been all that great recently. It's not that I even necessarily think Mourinho's wrong, because for all we know Shaw's attitude may be terrible. We just don't fully know...and personally I don't think there's much wrong with a player with a niggle wanting to sit out a match that we were almost guaranteed to win anyway.
Agree 100%. We need to embrace and love our players. Show them hugs and kisses not criticism and hate.
Mourinho has gone too old school........
We don't know if its a niggle or nothing (Mou reaction suggests its nothing)...plus Stoke and Burnley were guaranteed wins which went to shit!!
Yes it is. It's full of mugs who will throw players with years of service under the bus, for shit bullshit reasons as 'not having the mentality' for a manager 3 months into his reign and is proving to be a bit of a flop.
The team from Moyes' year is almost completely changed to the one we're putting out now. It's not the same core of players at all.
So...a whole load of modern footballers, then? A lot love the money that comes with it. That's the case at Barca, Madrid, or even City, Liverpool and Chelsea here. Football is full of vain, money-obsessed players.
Oh....And before I forget....LvG had several pops at Luke Shaw.
Shall we make him the bad guy too?
Seriously, stand by your manager. Ever since Fergie, no one has enjoyed 100% support. It's time to change that!
Shall we make him the bad guy too?
Seriously, stand by your manager. Ever since Fergie, no one has enjoyed 100% support. It's time to change that!