Just not in the position we need him to play in. But that point has been made many times here.
Marouane Fellaini | 2013/14 Performances
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Just not in the position we need him to play in. But that point has been made many times here.
True, but this rigid CM v AM distinction is overplayed in my opinion. He is more old school in a way, a proper box to box so he can use his abilities up and down the park. And in context of the actual point it's still more tangible than what the Kagawa fans have to go on.
I agree fully as regards the England situation. However, Carrick was not always as consistently solid for us as he has been of late (last couple of seasons). He was far more patchy in his first seasons. I think you're right, though, to suggest that his very style of play didn't sit well with some of our fans (the Wilkins comparison is apt) - and that was certainly not down to his actual quality on the pitch: But the latter did vary to a far greater extent than we've seen recently.
He has improved, no doubt, but not in the way some people are making out; the trophies we won in his first 3 or 4 seasons testify to that.
All depends on realtive bargaining strength in the particular deal I assume.
I'd say the progressive deterioration of our midfield plays a part in how the perception of Carrick changed. In his debut season (06/07) Scholes was magnificent all season long, he pretty much stole the show. And he had a really fecking slow start to 07/08, he just came into his own in the second part of the season but by then everything was about Ronaldo.
I agree, I think that's what changed the fans perception more than Carrick being that much better now than he was then. Also his position as fulcrum is easier without a Scholes to defer to.
I'm a certified Fellaini doubter, but I would be more than pleased if he cemented his place in the side and proves to be the midfielder we need!
Whilst I don't agree because I think Felliani is far better on the ball than Andy Carroll and anyway plays in an entirely different position, to those who don't think Fellaini will fit into our system the comparison with Carroll seems perfectly justifiable.
As likewise with Fellaini in the opinion of those who opposed his transfer to United, Carroll was a player predominantly known for his physical stature who moved for a very high fee to a club known primarily for its mobility and fast passing game. Carroll didn't fit in at Liverpool for the very same reasons that some people say that Fellaini won't fit in at United. The two transfers are certainly comparable in many respects.
This is a load of bollocks, to be fair.
It's not self-pity to point out that the so-called arguments presented while trying to argue my view of a footballer is bollocks. The afro-argument is not an excaggerated claim, it's absolute tripe. It's so stupid it's absolutely amazing you're even trying to make some sort of sense of it.
And why is it snobbery to argue there are better options out there than a player our manager has bought? It's, firstly, almost 100 % certain to be true by rights of probability. And it's got feck all to do with what country he's from. And what is this "Premier League is shit"-brigade you're talking about? Do you think I was unhappy when we signed proven Premiership striker Robin van Persie (for less than Fellaini, I might add)?
But Carroll is a shit footballer, Fellaini is not. So the similarities really stops with "strong physical presence, good in the air".
Also, while I do find Fellaini somewhat overpriced, it's not like he's a £10 million footballer we've forked out £35 million for.
That's pointing out that certain people are more concerned with pretending that questioning Fellaini equals being angry at his afro - it's got feck all to do with self-pity.
Stop derailing this thread and start offering your own views on Fellaini instead. Really, it's not clever pulling the "Premier League is shit brigade"-card. It's arguing against nothing and offers zilch to this forum. Where are these people that believes every Spanish player is great, or players from Everton can never be good enough for United, like some have suggested? I can't see them.
From now on I'd be grateful if we could argue Fellaini - not resort to straw men or imaginative arguments. I swear some people on this forum are more concerned with point scoring than discussing football.
That risk about fitting in could be made about most players/transfers though. And rang true for one with the sublime quality of Veron.
I would say the 5 years Fellaini has been outmuscling the opposition in the division versus Andy Carroll's 14? Premier league goals makes them hugely different in terms of risk involved for the large fee which is where I entered the conversation and was the context of my point.
Carroll as well as having little experience in the division had a history of discipline issues.
As for our system, it seems to me that out system lacks bite on occasion and he is going to augment rather than blend. The fact that he is being bought to fill a long existing gap and is not part of a splurge of cash that is tying to redefine a squad in one mad fell swoop also makes them different. Fellaini will have time to adjust, as he is joining the champions and not part of a madman's attempt at trying to rebuild a long broken empire. So for me he is better equipped than Carroll to deliver less than Carroll was expected to.
I'm not up to date on FM terminology so perhaps I've not been clear in calling Fellaini a DMC. I never meant to imply that he's going to be a replacement/stand-in/substitute for Michael Carrick (though of course he offers that as well). Primarily I see him as a replacement for Tom Cleverley, or perhaps more accurately a replacement for Darren Fletcher.
Consider the following two United lineups:
van der Sar
Neville - - Rio - - Vidic - - Evra
Carrick - - Fletcher
Ronaldo - - - Tevez - - - Nani
Rooney
de Gea
Rafael - - Rio - - Vidic - - Evra
Carrick - - Fellaini
Valencia - - - Rooney - - - Welbz
van Persie
Neville - - Rio - - Vidic - - Evra
Carrick - - Fletcher
Ronaldo - - - Tevez - - - Nani
Rooney
de Gea
Rafael - - Rio - - Vidic - - Evra
Carrick - - Fellaini
Valencia - - - Rooney - - - Welbz
van Persie
I believe both the above setups as being comparable in the various roles and tactical arrangements. Perhaps Fletcher would have been a little more mobile than Fellaini, but the latter makes up for that with a superior physical presence. In either case the role of Fletcher/Fellaini would be to disrupt opposition play in the defensive phase and win the ball before passing it to a more attack-minded teammate, whilst in the attacking phase offering the simple option as an out for a teammate running into trouble. In either case the players would be expected to get back to help in front of the defence as well as roam forward to the edge of the box when on the attack.
I believe this is predominantly the role Fellaini will play for United and I don't see any reason why he couldn't fulfill it at least as well as Darren Fletcher did during the Ronaldo era.
Compare Fletcher's play here vs Bayern Munich with the video of Fellaini vs Arsenal in my previous post:
[YouTube]sl1LJtMlaQI&feature=youtube_gdata_player[/YouTube]
They're very, very similar.
I prefer the first line up.
I never felt the Carrick/Fletcher-duo worked well at all, though. It was never a very compatible partnership and our play looked really disjointed a lot of the time. The season those two played the most together were the final season of Ronaldo, in which we relied really heavily on our attackers pulling something out of the bag.
And yes, I imagine he'll play alongside Carrick, which is the midfield role I believe he's the least suited for.
Michael Cox (Zonalmarking) on how Moyes will use Fellaini:
I made the point that Carrick's appreciation over the last 2-3 seasons has been as high as anyone else in our squad, which doesn't correspond with your view that he is under-appreciated. Likewise him being nominated for POTS last year also doesn't correspond with your view. I hugely disagree that he's always been as good as he has been recently (2-3 seasons) and people are only now realising it; although your posts seem to stink of the feeling that you believe you have seen through the not so flashy, under-appreciated job that Michael Carrick has done for years, only for pundits, other fans and experts alike to only finally realise what you knew all along years later.
I am basing my opinion that Fellaini isn't a £23+m player and is only going to be decent in the medium-long term as a squad option on the basis that I've watched him for 5 seasons. Having seen him play I believe in a central midfield role he is not dynamic enough to make us compete on a European level, where he will come up against top class players: the likes of Schweinsteiger, Martinez, Busquets, Iniesta, Xavi, Toure, Ozil, Kroos, Pirlo or central players slightly further forward like Mata, Suarez, Gotze, Messi etc.
I feel every time people point out performances that he has "bossed the game", it has been in a role that is totally unsuited to our play and in a position that we are already well stocked (behind the striker). This bossing has also basically been him using his size to bully defenders in winning aerial battles, again an outlet that not only do I think would not benefit our team, but could actually promote the worst parts of our game, which is Rio, Evans, Smalling etc lumping it 40-50 yards from defence. I totally agree that we need a bit of steal in our midfield, but steal in the form of a Vidal type of player.
I haven't seen enough characteristics in his play that would suggest to me that he could slot into our central midfield and be anything other than "different" to what we currently have, not better.
I didn't say Carrick is under appreciated as much as was under appreciated for a long time, partly due to the style of player he is.
That's deep, man.
Ok, let's make a day of it. You get the picnic basket, I'll get the lube.
Not all players are unique. Fellaini gives us something none of our current midfield players do. I think you could play Carrick, Cleverley and Fellaini too. No reason why not. You don't have to compare him to anyone.
Ciderman's second line up makes me feel a bit sick, especially as he tries to compare it to a treble winning team. Val and Welbeck on the wings makes me want to cry.
The irony. I did exactly that last night, but you kept whinging on with your persecution complex and like a dick I got pulled back in. I'll try and ingore it when you inevitably do it again.
Here's some of my views on Fellaini, I don't know why i didn't post them in here earlier:
Players like Fletcher, Khedira and Martinez are must-haves if your team plays via transitions. Fletcher performances against the big teams during the 09/10 season were exemplary because we were primarily a counter-attacking team that season with Rooney as the focal point and Nani and Valencia bitzing from midfield. He could break up play deep in our own half and play the quick through ball or he could press high up the pitch to win the ball back in the opponent's half. He was very good at both.
However, over the years our play have focused lesser and and lesser on transitions but rather a deliberate build-up play. I fear that Fellaini is not the type of player suited for this play. What we need is a midfield who can play football in the opposition's half.
However, over the years our play have focused lesser and and lesser on transitions but rather a deliberate build-up play. I fear that Fellaini is not the type of player suited for this play. What we need is a midfield who can play football in the opposition's half.
Why cant Fellaini do this?
It really shouldn't have had to come to this. But brilliant post. Please everyone with reservations of what Fellaini is bringing READ THIS feckING POST.
Turn it up
.Not allowed. Restraining order.
We didn't rely on our attackers to pull something out of the bag, we allowed them to. There's a massive difference.
I'd be delighted if we go with something like what Cider has set out above, but I would include Kagawa and Nani over Welbeck and Valencia simply because I think when playing with 2 deep midfielders you need massively creative forwards who can exploit the space that will be afforded to them.
We might even play good football again all thinks to Fellaini.
We played some of our most disjointed football with Fletcher/Carrick as the CM duo. There's a reason why Scholes was vital so long, why Giggs partnered Carrick for a prolonged while and why SAF never trusted Fletcher/Carrick for long periods except when we went all out counter attacking with Ronaldo at the end of 08-09.
Does this include the season we went to the final when Fletch got suspended? It also culminated in two seasons of having the best defense in the league..
Funny that isn't it..
. 'Disjointed' never a bigger amount of bollocks spouted.We played superb football in that season and it's one that's often quoted here as being a special season. Any team will miss Scholes distribution but to criticise the Fletch/Carrick partnership as disjointed does them a disservice.
Saying we played some of our most disjointed football with Carrick-Fletcher at cm is definitely unfair. That said, that cm was definitely the weakest part of our team at the time and was (rightly) seen as not being anywhere close to that of our treble winning team, not to mention being worse than that of quite a few of our rivals. The fact that we're attempting to get back to that standard says more about our current position than the strength of Carrick/Fletcher as a partnership. I'm not sure a return to that Carrick/Fletcher midfield type is what we should ideally be aiming for, even if it would be an improvement on what we currently have.
Eh?! Your memory must be knackered
Fletcher and Carrick was a pretty good partnership. Wasn't anything amazing, but its very unfair to say we played disjointed football. The 08/09 season we were so comfortable in almost every league game, that even though we didn't always score loads of goals, our team was just so solid all around you just knew we would win. We were fantastic defensively as well. Fletcher was brilliant that year, and Carrick was really good as well, until the final which haunted him for over a year really. Don't think Fellaini will be anything like Fletcher was that year (being a box to box mid), but I do think he can offer a similar defensive solidarity and a more solid, secure feel about our midfield, although we might lack a bit in attack with a midfield two of Carrick and Fellaini. That's why I think if we play them, it is vital that we use Kagawa and Nani on the wings, and not go with the more defensive players like Young, Valencia, or Welbeck to a lesser extent on the wing. We need as much creativity as possible up front and on the wings, because our likely starting midfield won't offer much.
Back in early 2006 on another Football forum I did a big post to mark my X000th post and one of the things I brought up was the need for someone like Carrick. We eventually signed him and it turned out to be one of my only Nostradamus moments. The other debatable one being "Obertan will become a great winger for us" but that discussion is for another thread.
Anyway, my point at the time was that we needed a specific player, a foil for Scholes and someone who could not only play a possession passing game but play the right pass quickly to exploit the pace that we had in Ronaldo, Rooney, Saha and Van Nistelrooy. It turned out to be the right move by Fergie and 06-07 was a very special season in terms of quality of play.
Now I never claimed the same before we signed Fellaini, I turned my nose up and thought we should go for better so I'm not going to claim anything on this one but now we have signed him, and I've had to spend more time considering how he will do for us and how he might benefit us, I think he's going to be a very astute purchase. He ticks a lot of the boxes we were complaining about last year in terms of defensive ability and physical play. We won't get bullied by City anymore and we won't get bullied by the teams who can't take any sort of game to us, then there is the smaller things like defending set pieces. With Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Fellaini, Jones, Smalling and Van Persie the opposition are going to do well to get a sniff in the air. It might even allow us to keep Van Persie forward and offer the opposition something to think about in terms of having less players forward.
The opposite end of the field will be a massive worry for every team and not just at set pieces, having a player who can get forward and attack the box is going to cause all sorts of trouble, do they double up on our wingers or use the spare man to track Fellaini? If Fellaini is having his runs marked, how much room is going to be created around the box for Rooney and Van Persie?
Basically we've signed a big fecker who is a nuicence because he can play a bit and he's going to be a pain in the ass when they have the ball and a pain in the ass when we have the ball. That might not be pretty but it'll allow Van Persie, Rooney, Nani, Kagawa, Welbeck and Co to be as pretty as they like.
Anyway, my point at the time was that we needed a specific player, a foil for Scholes and someone who could not only play a possession passing game but play the right pass quickly to exploit the pace that we had in Ronaldo, Rooney, Saha and Van Nistelrooy. It turned out to be the right move by Fergie and 06-07 was a very special season in terms of quality of play.
Now I never claimed the same before we signed Fellaini, I turned my nose up and thought we should go for better so I'm not going to claim anything on this one but now we have signed him, and I've had to spend more time considering how he will do for us and how he might benefit us, I think he's going to be a very astute purchase. He ticks a lot of the boxes we were complaining about last year in terms of defensive ability and physical play. We won't get bullied by City anymore and we won't get bullied by the teams who can't take any sort of game to us, then there is the smaller things like defending set pieces. With Rio, Vidic, Carrick, Fellaini, Jones, Smalling and Van Persie the opposition are going to do well to get a sniff in the air. It might even allow us to keep Van Persie forward and offer the opposition something to think about in terms of having less players forward.
The opposite end of the field will be a massive worry for every team and not just at set pieces, having a player who can get forward and attack the box is going to cause all sorts of trouble, do they double up on our wingers or use the spare man to track Fellaini? If Fellaini is having his runs marked, how much room is going to be created around the box for Rooney and Van Persie?
Basically we've signed a big fecker who is a nuicence because he can play a bit and he's going to be a pain in the ass when they have the ball and a pain in the ass when we have the ball. That might not be pretty but it'll allow Van Persie, Rooney, Nani, Kagawa, Welbeck and Co to be as pretty as they like.
... and by the way, does anyone think he'd be taken a bit more seriously if he had a proper hair cut and didn't look like a massive microphone?
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