Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

Cheesy said:
That shouldn't really matter, though. I think most of us understand that the vast majority of American citizens do not live under the threat of being caught up in a gun massacre, and that it's something that most people (thankfully) are unlikely to find themselves a victim of, or being involved in at all.

But there's no doubt that, compared to other, developed first-world nations, America experiences gun massacres on a far, far more regular basis, and thus suffers far more casualties from them. This sort of incident happens fairly regularly in the US, and the ease of access with which people can obtain guns is clearly the reason.
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I agree with this, but I believe the solution is not in banning guns, but in increasing background checks and in improving our nation's embarrassing mental health system.
 
Carolina Red said:
Which brings me back to the recent incidents of mass shootings in gun banning Europe...
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... The few and far between mass shootings in Europe.
Cf , IIRC 475 mass shootings in the US so far this year (4 or more dead/injured).

It would be a complete idiot to suggest that a ban on all guns would mean the end of gun crime.

Gun crime is relatively unusual, rather than the norm of the urban US.

All guns aren't all banned in Europe. High powered auto/semi auto assault rifles are afaik. Because you generally don't need them to take out a pigeon.

It would be a complete idiot to suggest banning all guns in one stroke for the US.

It would be useful to gradually remove from general availability assault rifle type guns, and then slowly work through the rest.
But before that occurs, the complete imbalance in society between the bottom 50% and the top 1% needs to be addressed.

Back on topic:
The shooting is likely to be ideological given the parents info.

The US could easily remove most assault rifles from the hands of terrorists/nutters within its borders, but chooses not to, as rural/suburbia thinks they are threatened.

Europe has more 'open' borders, with relatively short sea or land borders to 'suspect' places, it is easier to get assault rifles in, than the US could make it.
 
Rado_N said:
Has someone else been posting fake opinions from your account the last few pages?
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Once again, you have yet to ask me what I believe we should do about it.

Another poster did, and I gave him an answer... an answer that the NRA actually disapproves of, for the record.

But I imagine you didn't pay attention to that before you stereotyped me.
 
SwansonsTache said:
This, someone arguing that Islam of all the big religions isn't the one with the most prejudiced and sad approach to gay-rights are arguing out of a stance of just being as PC as possible.

Go dress up in a "gay rights" t-shirt in predominantly muslim countries and predominantly christian countries and see which is the greatest success.
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Islam does seem to be especially a cnutish religion right now. No doubt this will offend the PC brigade though and they will come up with examples of how a Buddhist monk once killed a guy and hence the religion itself is not the problem.

Until people accept the issue, nothing will happen unfortunately.
 
SwansonsTache said:
This, someone arguing that Islam of all the big religions isn't the one with the most prejudiced and sad approach to gay-rights are arguing out of a stance of just being as PC as possible.

Go dress up in a "gay rights" t-shirt in predominantly muslim countries and predominantly christian countries and see which is the greatest success.
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Try that in Hindu Mauritius where homosexuality is illegal. No religion has a great record on gay rights from what I can see.
 
Carolina Red said:
I agree with this, but I believe the solution is not in banning guns, but in increasing background checks and in improving our nation's embarrassing mental health system.
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I think that'd definitely help. I don't think a blanket ban would be an ideal situation because it'd be, in effect, unenforceable in a country which treasures its 2nd amendment and would view any government that takes their guns away as being tyrannical. Nevertheless though, I don't see how any American would be able to argue that it's safer to live in a nation with guns than without. The statistics quite clearly demonstrate that in most European countries that are considered as developed, gun crime is much, much rarer than America.

I get that there isn't going to be a ban, but it's undoubtedly safer.
 
Adisa said:
Hate crime. Could still be religion linked.
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Still not the same. No different to many of the other mass shootings in the USA and nothing like the events in Paris or Brussels. He will just use it as another stick to beat Muslims with and another reason to pat himself on his own back with his tiny child like hands.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Perhaps people could calm down and not go on this massive "houlier than thou" attitude binge against a single poster? We must just realize that the everyday situation and the general mindset are quite different in the US from here in the Europe.

I dont agree on everything Carolina Red says, but I dare wager that most of us living in a city which is in the top50 of crime ridden places in the US would given the option own a legal handgun for our own and our familys protection.

Get off your high horses.
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Erm, nope.
 
As a gun owner in the UK I actually understand were @Carolina Red is coming from. I do feel much safer with a gun and although I would hope to never in my life have cause to use it I wouldn't now like to not have one.

I also know I'll be ultimately responsible for that gun and the consequences of its use. It's very easy to look at America and wax lyrical about how obvious the solution is but it's not as simple as that. The focus should be on checks, availability and tests to determine suitability and capability for gun ownership.

Being able to buy one at Walmart on a Tuesday morning is several steps too far.

@Grinner is a wanker
 
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Grinner said:
Christ, that went over your head, didn't it! The absurdity...
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No, it didn't. I'm just pointing out that I've been arguing for the protection of a Constitutional right, and that Tannerite doesn't fall under that Constitutional right, therefore his attempt at a straw man doesn't exactly fit.
 
Carolina Red said:
And you want to make a remark about my level of perception?
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'frequency' was the word used.

You're dodging the underlying point though:

You need a gun to conduct a mass shooting.
Therefore, the harder it is to get a gun, the harder it is to conduct a mass shooting.
Guns are an efficient way of killing someone to the point that if someone was so determined to do it and used another means, i.e. a home made bomb or a knife they would kill less people.

Do you disagree with any of those points?
 
langster said:
Still not the same. No different to many of the other mass shootings in the USA and nothing like the events in Paris or Brussels. He will just use it as another stick to beat Muslims with and another reason to pat himself on his own back with his tiny child like hands.
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"What are we going to do about these Musical Muslin terrorists? Lyin' Ted won't do a thing, nor Crooked Whatsername. So vote me. Oh, and then there's that 'terrible tragedy, thoughts go out' stuff."
 
SteveJ said:
"What are we going to do about these Musical Muslin terrorists? Lyin' Ted won't do a thing, nor Crooked Whatsername. So vote me. Oh, and then there's that 'terrible tragedy, thoughts go out' stuff."
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That's pretty much what he has just done. He's such a truly awful man. :(
 
Cheesy said:
I think that'd definitely help. I don't think a blanket ban would be an ideal situation because it'd be, in effect, unenforceable in a country which treasures its 2nd amendment and would view any government that takes their guns away as being tyrannical. Nevertheless though, I don't see how any American would be able to argue that it's safer to live in a nation with guns than without. The statistics quite clearly demonstrate that in most European countries that are considered as developed, gun crime is much, much rarer than America.

I get that there isn't going to be a ban, but it's undoubtedly safer.
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If you could ban every single weapon, it would absolutely be safer. But as I see that as impossible, I would rather be armed with the same level of weapon as the bad guys.
 
langster said:
Still not the same. No different to many of the other mass shootings in the USA and nothing like the events in Paris or Brussels. He will just use it as another stick to beat Muslims with and another reason to pat himself on his own back with his tiny child like hands.
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I agree. Terrorism has to have politically backed. In this case, it seems he killed them because they were gay. I am saying he could have hated gays because he was a religious zealot.
 
Duafc said:
As a gun owner in the UK I actually understand were @Carolina Red is coming from.

I do feel much safer with a gun and although I would hope to never in my life have cause to use it I wouldn't now like to not have one.

I also know I'll be ultimately responsible for that gun and the consequences of its use.

It's very easy to look at America and wax lyrical about how obvious the solution is but it's not as simple as that.

The focus should be on checks, availability and tests to determine suitability and capability for gun ownership.

Being able to buy one at Walmart on a Tuesday morning is several steps too far.
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I absolutely agree with everything you just said. Well stated.
 
Carolina Red said:
If you could ban every single weapon, it would absolutely be safer. But as I see that as impossible, I would rather be armed with the same level of weapon as the bad guys.
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It is right now, but nothing's ever going to change if people just accept this as the truth.
 
Adisa said:
I agree. Terrorism has to have politically backed. In this case, it seems he killed them because they were gay. I am saying he could have hated gays because he was a religious zealot.
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Yeah, no argument there, and you and I are able to distinguish between the two. Trump and his moronic band of racist followers are sadly not though. That's the worrying part.
 
Jippy said:
How do you get those permits out of interest? Can't imagine someone being able to argue a legitimate need for one.
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And that is where the great gulf in thinking on firearms originates between Americans and Europeans.

We do not have to argue a "need" for a firearm. We have the right to keep and bear them.

To answer your question... you have to take classes, go through checks, etc. You can't just go buy one at the store.
 
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