Moyes So Far!

[Chesterlestreet]

What he says is blatantly true. We are some players short of a "world class" starting XI. He has said the same thing before: Fine squad, not quite there with the XI. As for motivating the players - once again, do people really think he does that via press conferences and interviews? If he isn't able to motivate them, that's a real problem. If he has alienated them already - even bigger problem. But to suspect that anything of the sort is the case based on what he tells the hacks who are dying to see him fail - well, it is idiotic, there is no other word for it.

 

[Pexbo]

I'm surprised people are jumping on him for saying we are a few world class players short of Bayen and Barca.

It's frighteningly obvious and I'd be much more worried if he hadn't recognised that. I'll only criticise him if he does nothing about it.

 

[SteveJ]

The only thing that Moyes should be criticised for (regarding his public statements) would be if he made an appalling faux pas like Hodgson did at Liverpool when he described Hillsborough protests as 'not helpful'. Moyes' interviews are basically for media consumption; he's obliged to do them while knowing that journalists will seize on anything vaguely contentious without thinking his comments through...much like idiot fans who gleefully grasp on the same. Oh, I forgot, they're "outraged".

 

[Raees]

AVB was far worse than a few comments to the media about the team not being set to win the Champions League

He completely changed their tactics for one and started playing a highline that some of the bigger egos in the dressing room didn't want to play, in terms of man management he also banished a few first team players to the reserves, IIRC it was Alex and.. maybe Malouda? But anyway, whoever it was it didn't go down well.

Moyes has done nothing like that, his comment was pretty mild IMO

Of course, but I'm saying the potential is there... couple of more awful results and we could see the nasty side of Moyes and alienation/banishment etc could come into play.

 

[gormless]

Further, Moyes needs to take a long and hard look at past winners of the Champions League to see how were full of his "5 or 6 world class players". Were United in 1999?

I agree with your post, but Schmeichel, Stam, the midfield 4, and I would argue Yorke was world class that one year

 

[Eto'odinho]

I'm surprised people are jumping on him for saying we are a few world class players short of Bayen and Barca.

It's frighteningly obvious and I'd be much more worried if he hadn't recognised that. I'll only criticise him if he does nothing about it.

It is the timing and the public nature of the comments that have people up in arms. The team is struggling and an adverse vote of confidence is the last thing it needs at the moment. It suggests a lack of trust from the manager. Comments like these are best kept private or in one's head. If he wants to overhaul the squad, he can do so but without publicly making the current squad feel inadequate.

The comments also have a bit of irony about them following the 27.5 mil pound signing of Fellaini. Is he what the manager considers world class?

SAF is the one who assembled this squad and he knows these players better than possibly anyone else yet for all their shortcomings he never revealed anything negative about their quality/ability in public. If there is one area Moyes needs to copy SAF is how he handles the media with respect to his team. Even in the darkest of times, SAF always stuck by the likes of Veron, O'Shea, Fletcher, Ronaldo or even Laurent Blanc,and in return those players fought for him.

 

[Livvie]

I sincerely hope that Moyes's master plan is to give every player his chance before some wholesale changes next summer.

It's clearly obvious to most now that Anderson, Young, Buttner and a few others are clearly not the standard that Manchester United require... Any one doubting this should ask, would any of these players get in any of the top 10 European sides?

I think many true fans will accept this as a transitional season if the bigger picture is clearer. One of the only only consolations from being baked alive on the K stand yesterday was watching the obvious emerging talents of Adnan Januzaj

Not the transitional card again.

Yes, there is some transition in relation to the management. There shouldn't be any transition in relation to the team. We won the league only last year - the team should be in the position of being strengthened, not in transition. If we are, then something has gone wrong.

 

[Fergus' son]

Not the transitional card again.

Yes, there is some transition in relation to the management. There shouldn't be any transition in relation to the team. We won the league only last year - the team should be in the position of being strengthened, not in transition. If we are, then something has gone wrong.

I disagree, just because a team has just won the league doesn't mean it shouldn't be in transition the following season, in fact one of SAFs biggest strengths was realiasing was when the squad needs freshening up, and it certainly seems like its the case now.

 

[Livvie]

I disagree, just because a team has just won the league doesn't mean it shouldn't be in transition the following season, in fact one of SAFs biggest strengths was realiasing was when the squad needs freshening up, and it certainly seems like its the case now.

If we're in transition it's because Fergie didn't realise it in time.

 

[Pexbo]

It is the timing and the public nature of the comments that have people up in arms. The team is struggling and an adverse vote of confidence is the last thing it needs at the moment. It suggests a lack of trust from the manager. Comments like these are best kept private or in one's head. If he wants to overhaul the squad, he can do so but without publicly making the current squad feel inadequate.

The comments also have a bit of irony about them following the 27.5 mil pound signing of Fellaini. Is he what the manager considers world class?

SAF is the one who assembled this squad and he knows these players better than possibly anyone else yet for all their shortcomings he never revealed anything negative about their quality/ability in public. If there is one area Moyes needs to copy SAF is how he handles the media with respect to his team. Even in the darkest of times, SAF always stuck by the likes of Veron, O'Shea, Fletcher, Ronaldo or even Laurent Blanc,and in return those players fought for him.

He hasn't called any single player out publicly though. He's just said that the squad needs improvements and players need to make the step up.

If our players are going to get all upset about that and it's going to "dent their confidence", well they shouldn't be here anyway. They should listen to what he has said and take it as a challenge.

 

[pocco]

If we're in transition it's because Fergie didn't realise it in time.

Or perhaps he did and decided to leave United with a solid squad but a good transfer kitty. He didn't exactly spend mega amounts on players recently.

Moyes has said himself that he is giving everybody a chance to prove themselves, which is completely fair. The result of that, however, is a transitional period before we see Moyes' team. I've been pleased with his assessments of the squad so far and I agree with everything he's said.

 

[devilish]

Not the transitional card again.

Yes, there is some transition in relation to the management. There shouldn't be any transition in relation to the team. We won the league only last year - the team should be in the position of being strengthened, not in transition. If we are, then something has gone wrong.

I've been here since 2002 and the transition card has been used in nearly every single season were we either failed/struggled to win the EPL/CL. Why isn't it acceptable to use anymore? I mean, for the first time in many years we are really in transition.

 

[Genius Me!]

To think when I was the first to comment andcall this a Shit thread way back in July, I never thought we'd be here 2600+ comments later.

I guess it's not as Shit as I predicted.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Six matches played in the league, three of them lost. That looks bad. But two of these defeats could've easily occurred under any circumstances (as could the draw with Chelsea, for that matter). We're three points behind City, four behind Chelsea. Meanwhile there's talk of a crisis in Madrid - Ancelotti being five points adrift, having lost at home against Atletico...

We all knew that Moyes wasn't likely to get everything right in his first season. He has been tinkering with the team, as expected. And as expected this has lead to dodgy performances. Unless you insist on painting everything black there isn't anything here out of the ordinary - a sketchy start to a very difficult season, that's all.

If we are struggling in the bottom half come Christmas - then some of the complaints and worries we've heard will be understandable and valid. Not now, though. Six matches. Nothing has been won or lost yet. He hasn't decided on a starting XI yet. He will do that. And then, if our performances keep being dodgy and the results shocking - well, go mental all you like. But it's too bloody early to start panicking.

I've said this before: We're seeing very clearly now that many of our fans simply weren't prepared to be patient. They're losing it after five minutes. In theory they accepted that following Fergie wouldn't be an easy task - but in practice they aren't willing to cut Moyes any slack at all.

 

[LR7]

Moyes is still learning how to rotate a squad as big as ours. He isn't just going to 'get it' straight away unfortunately.

Moyes took the decision to play the same players in the tough opening fixtures in the hope that it would lead to consistency and results, it didn't and particularly in the last game against City, it was clear that a few players like Rio and Vidic needed a rest. Neither had played so many consecutive games since 2010 so it was a massive risk and showed that SAF wasn't just rotating them because he 'loved to tinker'.

Since then he's rotated a lot more, and we reaped the rewards for freshening up the squad against Liverpool in the cup. Yesterday he almost got it right apart from the fullback positions imo. It's not just a case of being wise after the event either, I said when the squads were announced that it was a good starting XI, but maybe a Da Silva short.

Same goes for substitutions. Moyes has often made the fewest substitutions over a league season at Everton, and now we expect him to make several game changing substitutions to help us win games and I genuinely don't think he's just going to be able to do it straight away.

A lot of things will be a steep learning curve for Moyes over the course of this season, and were just going to have to get used to that.

 

[jojojo]

Transition's not a problem, if it means we're looking at our next team - the one that's a year or two away. If we lose a few points because we're using our young players more generously, I've no problem with it, mistakes are part of learning.

But if we're losing points by failing to rotate older players, or playing new ones out of position then what kind of transition is that. Presumably a transition is about getting somewhere and using 28 year old plus squad players as first XI regulars doesn't sound like much of a transition.

I'm ready for the transition to start.

 

[Livvie]

I've been here since 2002 and the transition card has been used in nearly every single season were we either failed/struggled to win the EPL/CL. Why isn't it acceptable to use anymore? I mean, for the first time in many years we are really in transition.

Well you kind of answered your own question there. You say it's been used for years, and then in the next breath say that for the first time, we really are. Makes my point really. It's waved about all the time because people won't accept that maybe we just aren't very good any more. That maybe any transition won't help anyway, because it's proving harder to get quality players. Why shouldn't we be like Liverpool - a golden era then zilch?

 

[Shane88]

Six matches played in the league, three of them lost. That looks bad. But two of these defeats could've easily occurred under any circumstances (as could the draw with Chelsea, for that matter). We're three points behind City, four behind Chelsea. Meanwhile there's talk of a crisis in Madrid - Ancelotti being five points adrift, having lost at home against Atletico...

We all knew that Moyes wasn't likely to get everything right in his first season. He has been tinkering with the team, as expected. And as expected this has lead to dodgy performances. Unless you insist on painting everything black there isn't anything here out of the ordinary - a sketchy start to a very difficult season, that's all.

If we are struggling in the bottom half come Christmas - then some of the complaints and worries we've heard will be understandable and valid. Not now, though. Six matches. Nothing has been won or lost yet. He hasn't decided on a starting XI yet. He will do that. And then, if our performances keep being dodgy and the results shocking - well, go mental all you like. But it's too bloody early to start panicking.

I've said this before: We're seeing very clearly now that many of our fans simply weren't prepared to be patient. They're losing it after five minutes. In theory they accepted that following Fergie wouldn't be an easy task - but in practice they aren't willing to cut Moyes any slack at all.

That's putting a nice spin on it. The reality is we're currently 12th and will possibly be lower by 10pm tomorrow night and West Brom have just beaten us, without much hassle, at Old Trafford. The team don't seem to have any plan in attack and are poor in defence (dropping Rio might help solve that).

People can still get back Moyes and I will, for now. But people's concerns are completely understandable and not just panic, in my opinion.

 

[Livvie]

It's bound to be a concern. We had trust in Fergie because he pulled us out of it so many times, but Moyes is an unknown quantity. The main difference could be that Moyes isn't the same kind of motivator as Fergie, which could be a worry in itself.

But c'est la vie.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

That's putting a nice spin on it. The reality is we're currently 12th and will possibly be lower by 10pm tomorrow night and West Brom have just beaten us, without much hassle, at Old Trafford. The team don't seem to have any plan in attack and are poor in defence (dropping Rio might help solve that).

People can still get back Moyes and I will, for now. But people's concerns are completely understandable and not just panic, in my opinion.

Fair enough, that's your opinion. My opinion is that six matches into the season, with some very tricky fixtures thrown into the mix, is far too early to know anything about how this will work out.

 

[Sixpence]

Moyes message to the Glazers



Sir Alex Ferguson’s former side are the reigning champions of England, but aren’t good enough to win Europe’s premier competition.

Moyes told reporters: “To win the Champions League you have to have five or six world-class players.

“If you look at Bayern Munich, they have five or six really world-class players, and to win it you might have to have that in your squad.

“Look at Barcelona, who had it in the past, and Real Madrid have maybe got it now.

“That’s the level you have to get at to win it. We’ve not got that yet. What we have got is experience and several players who are in that category or close to it.”

Can't argue with that.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Well you kind of answered your own question there. You say it's been used for years, and then in the next breath say that for the first time, we really are. Makes my point really. It's waved about all the time because people won't accept that maybe we just aren't very good any more. That maybe any transition won't help anyway, because it's proving harder to get quality players. Why shouldn't we be like Liverpool - a golden era then zilch?

It could happen, sure. Nothing is guaranteed. But there's a vast difference between our organization as a whole and that of Liverpool at the time when they truly faltered. We have financial resources on a whole different scale, for one. If Moyes gets the backing he needs from the Glazers there's no reason to fear us doing a Liverpool.

He will need that backing, though.

 

[Brophs]

I think we'll get either 10 or 12 points from the next four games and everything will look a lot rosier.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

I think we'll get either 10 or 12 points from the next four games and everything will look a lot rosier.

Well if we don't, we will be in real trouble.

 

[stand_free]

Same question - who are you suggesting replace him?

My guess is that Moyes will be at Utd a lot longer than some of our more fair weather fans.

It's also not 1999 anymore, are we naming years that its not? Some principals remain true nonetheless, including the one about a manager needing more than 5 minutes to settle at a new club.

Ancelotti, Klopp or de Boer.

He looks intimidated by the job and the tactics and football have been dreadful. Never once thought he was the right man and based on his first few months we have gone backwards at an alarming rate. Granted some of the issues are not his fault but he's hardly done much to fix them.

 

[Isotope]

If I were the money man, I'd wait to see what Moyes can do more with the current squad, before splashing more money. Any decent manager would be able to get us at least in 3rd, with last year squad + 27m player.

And no one expecting him to win CL in his first or second season. So why he had to bring it up and wanted 5 world class players, is absurd.

 

[humdinger]

Transition's not a problem, if it means we're looking at our next team - the one that's a year or two away. If we lose a few points because we're using our young players more generously, I've no problem with it, mistakes are part of learning.

But if we're losing points by failing to rotate older players, or playing new ones out of position then what kind of transition is that. Presumably a transition is about getting somewhere and using 28 year old plus squad players as first XI regulars doesn't sound like much of a transition.

I'm ready for the transition to start.

I agree with this in full.

 

[Brophs]

Well if we don't, we will be in real trouble.

Depends what you mean by "in real trouble". It would probably leave us an uphill task of winning the league, yeah, but missing out was always possible after Fergie left. The early days were never going to be as fluid or certain, either in terms of performances or results.

 

[SER19]

In light of these comments that seeimgly dismiss our hopes of winning the champions league before the 2nd game has been played, can someone explain why we said no to ozil then?

when youre talking about world class players it doesnt matte who's position they take. we would not have lost to west brom yesterday, with about 3 shots on target, if ozil was playing alongside rooney and van persie. we lack ambition, we dont lack excuses.

 

[Nighteyes]

Depends what you mean by "in real trouble". It would probably leave us an uphill task of winning the league, yeah, but missing out was always possible after Fergie left. The early days were never going to be as fluid or certain, either in terms of performances or results.

Considering our current form, I'd say the league is already gone

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Depends what you mean by "in real trouble". It would probably leave us an uphill task of winning the league, yeah, but missing out was always possible after Fergie left. The early days were never going to be as fluid or certain, either in terms of performances or results.

Well, if we took say 5 points from the next 4 games (a win, two draws and a loss), that would leave us with 12 points from 10 games. I think it'd be uphill to make top 4 from there to be honest.

 

[datura]

In light of these comments that seeimgly dismiss our hopes of winning the champions league before the 2nd game has been played, can someone explain why we said no to ozil then?

when youre talking about world class players it doesnt matte who's position they take. we would not have lost to west brom yesterday, with about 3 shots on target, if ozil was playing alongside rooney and van persie. we lack ambition, we dont lack excuses.

He was obviously after what he classes as a world class CM. Buying Ozil with the wages he'd demand plus that he'd ideally want to play in the Rooney position you can see why he didn't go in for him.

 

[Fergus' son]

In light of these comments that seeimgly dismiss our hopes of winning the champions league before the 2nd game has been played, can someone explain why we said no to ozil then?

when youre talking about world class players it doesnt matte who's position they take. we would not have lost to west brom yesterday, with about 3 shots on target, if ozil was playing alongside rooney and van persie. we lack ambition, we dont lack excuses.

Come one, you know why, because one of our current WC players plays in the same position as him. We were on the lookout for WC players in the positions we need them, CM and the wings.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Transition's not a problem, if it means we're looking at our next team - the one that's a year or two away. If we lose a few points because we're using our young players more generously, I've no problem with it, mistakes are part of learning.

But if we're losing points by failing to rotate older players, or playing new ones out of position then what kind of transition is that. Presumably a transition is about getting somewhere and using 28 year old plus squad players as first XI regulars doesn't sound like much of a transition.

I'm ready for the transition to start.

Judging by the gnashing of teeth over giving Evra a day off I'm not sure what you mean here. Also, which younger players are being forced to play out of position?

 

[Brophs]

Well, if we took say 5 points from the next 4 games (a win, two draws and a loss), that would leave us with 12 points from 10 games. I think it'd be uphill to make top 4 from there to be honest.

Even then I don't think top 4 would be impossible . All of the top 5 or 6 look like they'll drop points. You have to assume we'll get better the longer we go on.

 

[datura]

Well, if we took say 5 points from the next 4 games (a win, two draws and a loss), that would leave us with 12 points from 10 games. I think it'd be uphill to make top 4 from there to be honest.

Yet no one else is looking particularly convincing either. Arsenal are on a good run but unlikely to sustain it. I think it was always going to be an odd season with the managerial changes at the top teams, and it's proving to be the case.

 

[Cina]

Judging by the gnashing of teeth over giving Evra a day off I'm not sure what you mean here. Also, which younger players are being forced to play out of position?

Shinji, duh.

 

[MikeUpNorth]

Even then I don't think top 4 would be impossible . All of the top 5 or 6 look like they'll drop points. You have to assume we'll get better the longer we go on.

It wouldn't be impossible, but we'd be in real trouble.

 

[Livvie]

I wouldn't worry about going trophy-less for a season or two, as much as the effect that would have on buying players for the future.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Shinji, duh.

Oh right. Poor bastard is being forced to play the same position he plays for his national team.