North Korea

Raoul said:
I think that's perfectly plausible after Khamenai pulls out of Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Iraq.
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Why would they pull out of any of those places while the US is supporting Sunni regimes and their local power plays? America (and to a lesser extent the UK) are interfering in deep seated religious and cultural struggles and doing so with a complete lack of historical and cultural awareness. We should have known that of course since the second Iraq war which threw Iraq into complete chaos because of nothing more than rampant stupidity on the part of the Republican neo-cons. If the west stop fecking around in the Middle East, they will find a balance and settle down. Until then, you can expect the same shit to keep repeating itself, with the blame always being put squarely on the US and other western countries.

It's annoying as hell, because the likes of Iran could be valuable western allies if we stopped this pro-Saudi bullshit. Iran could become a democratic state long before Saudi Arabia would ever dream of it.
 
Kentonio said:
Why would they pull out of any of those places while the US is supporting Sunni regimes and their local power plays? America (and to a lesser extent the UK) are interfering in deep seated religious and cultural struggles and doing so with a complete lack of historical and cultural awareness. We should have known that of course since the second Iraq war which threw Iraq into complete chaos because of nothing more than rampant stupidity on the part of the Republican neo-cons. If the west stop fecking around in the Middle East, they will find a balance and settle down. Until then, you can expect the same shit to keep repeating itself, with the blame always being put squarely on the US and other western countries.

It's annoying as hell, because the likes of Iran could be valuable western allies if we stopped this pro-Saudi bullshit. Iran could become a democratic state long before Saudi Arabia would ever dream of it.
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Well therein lies your problem. If Khamenai wasn't outwardly expansionist then he wouldn't receive the sort of push back he does.

I do agree with the bit about Iran being an ally. It will happen sooner or later, but not while the Velayat al-Fakih goons are still in charge.
 
Raoul said:
Well therein lies your problem. If Khamenai wasn't outwardly expansionist then he wouldn't receive the sort of push back he does.

I do agree with the bit about Iran being an ally. It will happen sooner or later, but not while the Velayat al-Fakih goons are still in charge.
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The point is that if you want to get rid of the Khamenai power base then you need to give the moderates some support. If the US keep treating Iran as the evil enemy then that isn't going to happen. even the most moderate Iranian is not going to be impressed by a US president saying they want to bomb the feck out of them. Iran is a huge opportunity just waiting to be grabbed. That's why the Iranian deal was such a positive step in the right direction, and why if Trump managed to destroy it, he'll have done incalculable damage.

Seriously, for every bad thing Iran has done to US interests, they can turn around and point to the US having done just as much if not way more. Hell, they lost anything from 250,000 to 750,000 Iranian lives in the Iraq-Iran war, which only happened because of US support for Iraq. It's not like they don't have plenty of reasons to hate you guys, and yet they STILL are open to a peaceful relationship. It's hard to see how any rational country can miss that kind of oppoortunity to bring stability to the region. Iran are an ancient and extremely proud nation, they just need to be shown a little respect, and for the west to stop treating the theocracy in Saudi Arabia like a force for good.
 
Kentonio said:
The point is that if you want to get rid of the Khamenai power base then you need to give the moderates some support. If the US keep treating Iran as the evil enemy then that isn't going to happen. even the most moderate Iranian is not going to be impressed by a US president saying they want to bomb the feck out of them. Iran is a huge opportunity just waiting to be grabbed. That's why the Iranian deal was such a positive step in the right direction, and why if Trump managed to destroy it, he'll have done incalculable damage.

Seriously, for every bad thing Iran has done to US interests, they can turn around and point to the US having done just as much if not way more. Hell, they lost anything from 250,000 to 750,000 Iranian lives in the Iraq-Iran war, which only happened because of US support for Iraq. It's not like they don't have plenty of reasons to hate you guys, and yet they STILL are open to a peaceful relationship. It's hard to see how any rational country can miss that kind of oppoortunity to bring stability to the region. Iran are an ancient and extremely proud nation, they just need to be shown a little respect, and for the west to stop treating the theocracy in Saudi Arabia like a force for good.
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The Iran/Iraq war was down to the actual belligerents not the US. You can blame Saddam and Khomeini for that. Obviously the US, Europe, the Soviets et al were to varying degrees going to support the Iraqis when given the choice as opposed to a messianic fanatic regime that just got done holding hundreds of Americans hostage.
 
Raoul said:
The Iran/Iraq war was down to the actual belligerents not the US. You can blame Saddam and Khomeini for that. Obviously the US, Europe, the Soviets et al were to varying degrees going to support the Iraqis when given the choice as opposed to a messianic fanatic regime that just got done holding hundreds of Americans hostage.
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The US gave Hussain the green light for that war because they wanted Iran pushed back, and then supplied the Iraqis with invaluable satellite intelligence. When is America going to actually take responsibility for its actions?
 
Kentonio said:
The US gave Hussain the green light for that war because they wanted Iran pushed back, and then supplied the Iraqis with invaluable satellite intelligence. When is America going to actually take responsibility for its actions?
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Sometimes you have to blame the belligerents who actually fought the war and not create some sappy sob story about everything being the fault of non-participants. But since we're at it, nearly the entire Iraqi Army was outfitted with Soviet weapons and a lot of Iraqi officers had received senior military training in Moscow thanks to the chummy kinship the Ba'ath Party had with Communists. The US, the French, and Gulf Arab states also contributed to the Iraqi cause during that period.
 
Raoul said:
Sometimes you have to blame the belligerents who actually fought the war and not create some sappy sob story about everything being the fault of non-participants. But since we're at it, nearly the entire Iraqi Army was outfitted with Soviet weapons and a lot of Iraqi officers had received senior military training in Moscow thanks to the chummy kinship the Ba'ath Party had with Communists. The US, the French, and Gulf Arab states also contributed to the Iraqi cause during that period.
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Ah yes, let’s blame Iran for the crime of being invaded by a US supported Iraq.
 
Raoul said:
Sometimes you have to blame the belligerents who actually fought the war and not create some sappy sob story about everything being the fault of non-participants. But since we're at it, nearly the entire Iraqi Army was outfitted with Soviet weapons and a lot of Iraqi officers had received senior military training in Moscow thanks to the chummy kinship the Ba'ath Party had with Communists. The US, the French, and Gulf Arab states also contributed to the Iraqi cause during that period.
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Yeah... Perhaps... Though anybody who ignored the use of chemical weapons I think has to take a big fat chunk of accountabiluty

. Reports of Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran reached the CIA as early as 1983, but the U.S. took no action to restrain Iraq's violations of international law, failing even to alert the UN.[24] In late 1983, Reagan selected Donald Rumsfeldas his envoy to the Middle East; Rumsfeld met Saddam in Baghdad in December 1983 and March 1984. "On November 26, 1984, Iraq and the U.S. restored diplomatic relations."[23]
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I mean that's just indefensible behaviour... (Awaits some idiot to go all USA USA USA)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran–Iraq_war
 
Kentonio said:
And what does this have to do with Iran being invaded in the first place? I still want to know how being attacked by another country makes you responsible for the war.
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Take a few moments to read up on the Sha'at al-Arab issue and Khomeini's call for an Islamic Revolution inside Iraq, which Saddam was obviously not going to tolerate.
 
It's a load of bollocks. Kim will be looking to offer as little as possible in order to gain some relaxation of sanctions, or more likely some real hard cash or it's equivalent. He'll be able to do this because he has two advantages democratic leaders don't have, no time frame restrictions due to the electoral cycle, and no worries over domestic public reaction as he has control over that anyway. I hope discussions go well and tensions are eased, that's the best on offer.
 
Obviously lost a game of "How many countries have you been to..."
 
Sassy Colin said:
So, is this a direct result of China intervening the other month?
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I'd say a mix of factors. China have probably been on at him to stop dick-swinging, but then Trump's influence and his unpredictability may have played a role too.
 
Wow. Impressive scenes.

Apart from that watering can thing. Politics is so stupid. It's not the joining of two primary schools.
 
Dan said:
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Nothing annoys me more than idiot journalists inserting what someone meant to say/write in square brackets.

His message was:

New history from now on, at the starting point of a historic new peace era.
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That's it Anna, pure and simple, you stupid fecking cow.

It's the quote that will go in the history books, not your made up crap :mad:
 
Not sure why Trump's getting all or at least so much the credit. NK have gone as far as they can or need with their nuclear weapons programme, they've got an agreement on the formal ending of the war and next they'll probably get a declaration or treaty ensuring that the peninsula is some kind of neutral zone thus guaranteeing the continuation of the regime. Don't think Kim has done too badly there.
 
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Borden said:
Wow, what a turnaround!

Thanks Mr. Trump
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Kim is playing Trump like a fiddle. As long as he does this he gets to keep his nukes without any American involvement in the region. Kim doesn't really care if Trump takes the credit, he cares about staying in power and keeping his weapons. If he can get his neighbour on board to legitimize their relationship in the long term technically he's won this battle.
 
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